Nanoha Force
- Thread starter Nanya
- Start date
I'd like FORCE if it was executed better.
Also, if the old cast had as little impact on the story as they do in ViVid. With the Combat Cyborgs being pretty much the ONLY members of the old cast who get involved, seeing as how they ought to be the perfect natural counter to Eclipse infectees.
Someone once painted a gripping picture where Touma and friends were never captured by the TSAB and turned into "Forwards, Generation 2". A story where Touma had to remain on the run, lest the TSAB lock him up until the Eclipse kills him, to prevent him from killing anyone.
A story where the TSAB is actually one of the antagonists - a collective Heroic Antagonist -- that you can sympathize with but which isn't the side you're actually rooting for.
Also, if the old cast had as little impact on the story as they do in ViVid. With the Combat Cyborgs being pretty much the ONLY members of the old cast who get involved, seeing as how they ought to be the perfect natural counter to Eclipse infectees.
Someone once painted a gripping picture where Touma and friends were never captured by the TSAB and turned into "Forwards, Generation 2". A story where Touma had to remain on the run, lest the TSAB lock him up until the Eclipse kills him, to prevent him from killing anyone.
A story where the TSAB is actually one of the antagonists - a collective Heroic Antagonist -- that you can sympathize with but which isn't the side you're actually rooting for.
Force does have some issues, too, and can't obviously please everyone with the story direction. But I don't think it's bad. Are there elements that I wish had been handled differently? Sure. For one, I wouldn't have wanted to see the old devices put out to pasture so much; would rather have seen the AEC gear as additions (a warhammer built around Graf Eisen, for instance). But at least the story is internally consistent, mostly. Only real issue, and it's kind of a biggie, is where are the combat cyborgs when you want to deal with Eclipse infectees? Other than that, Thoma is Nanoha 2.0 in male form. Lily is combination Reinforce/Fate, and Isis is a new Subaru.
But Sunder, I am expecting Thoma to go on the run soon. Sooner or later, he'll see the Hucks in a bind, and be conflicted about helping them or sticking with the TSAB. He doesn't see a good option either way, so he strikes out on his own, trying to save the Hucks but also reform them. He won't want any half measures, and he'll see the TSAB side as a half-measure. Also, he definitely has Veyron issues (and it is possible Veyron and Curren did kill his village and don't remember), so he'll confront them that way, bringing out his darker feelings that he has been trying to suppress (and that the Eclipse is preying on).
But Sunder, I am expecting Thoma to go on the run soon. Sooner or later, he'll see the Hucks in a bind, and be conflicted about helping them or sticking with the TSAB. He doesn't see a good option either way, so he strikes out on his own, trying to save the Hucks but also reform them. He won't want any half measures, and he'll see the TSAB side as a half-measure. Also, he definitely has Veyron issues (and it is possible Veyron and Curren did kill his village and don't remember), so he'll confront them that way, bringing out his darker feelings that he has been trying to suppress (and that the Eclipse is preying on).
Question: Why are the Eclipse infectees so powerful, yet they hunt down powerless civilians on non-administered worlds?
Curren could have killed Hayate, Vita and Erio. The Huckebein in general could have killed everyone present when Hayate's glacier ceased to be a threat.
It's unlikely that this would provoke a stronger response from the TSAB, since the TSAB needs to be primarily concerned about administered worlds and can't afford to throw away more mages. Especially when the present members of Riot Force Six were THE most powerful mages they could field. There's no one equal to Hayate.
Why not eliminate the few people who could possibly threaten you, and scare away the Bureau that gets in your way? Especially when the evil virus in your head is compelling you to kill people?
Why prey exclusively on the powerless?
Curren could have killed Hayate, Vita and Erio. The Huckebein in general could have killed everyone present when Hayate's glacier ceased to be a threat.
It's unlikely that this would provoke a stronger response from the TSAB, since the TSAB needs to be primarily concerned about administered worlds and can't afford to throw away more mages. Especially when the present members of Riot Force Six were THE most powerful mages they could field. There's no one equal to Hayate.
Why not eliminate the few people who could possibly threaten you, and scare away the Bureau that gets in your way? Especially when the evil virus in your head is compelling you to kill people?
Why prey exclusively on the powerless?
Sunder the Gold said:
Question: Why are the Eclipse infectees so powerful, yet they hunt down powerless civilians on non-administered worlds?
Curren could have killed Hayate, Vita and Erio. The Huckebein in general could have killed everyone present when Hayate's glacier ceased to be a threat.
It's unlikely that this would provoke a stronger response from the TSAB, since the TSAB needs to be primarily concerned about administered worlds and can't afford to throw away more mages. Especially when the present members of Riot Force Six were THE most powerful mages they could field. There's no one equal to Hayate.
Why not eliminate the few people who could possibly threaten you, and scare away the Bureau that gets in your way? Especially when the evil virus in your head is compelling you to kill people?
Why prey exclusively on the powerless?
Curren could have killed Hayate, Vita and Erio. The Huckebein in general could have killed everyone present when Hayate's glacier ceased to be a threat.
It's unlikely that this would provoke a stronger response from the TSAB, since the TSAB needs to be primarily concerned about administered worlds and can't afford to throw away more mages. Especially when the present members of Riot Force Six were THE most powerful mages they could field. There's no one equal to Hayate.
Why not eliminate the few people who could possibly threaten you, and scare away the Bureau that gets in your way? Especially when the evil virus in your head is compelling you to kill people?
Why prey exclusively on the powerless?
Curren was savvy enough not to kill Hayate because contrary to what you may believe, the TSAB WILL hunt them down and probably throw a lot of Arc-en-Ciels at them. They didn't bother before because like what Stella said, they were only murdering people on unadministrated worlds, effectively out of TSAB notice. Killing their most powerful mage would not only set off alarms, it would be equivalent to starting a war. As powerful as the Hucks are, their defenses wouldn't be able to withstand a dimension-tearing superweapon, which the TSAB has a lot of.
Sunder the Gold said:
Question: Why are the Eclipse infectees so powerful, yet they hunt down powerless civilians on non-administered worlds?
Curren could have killed Hayate, Vita and Erio. The Huckebein in general could have killed everyone present when Hayate's glacier ceased to be a threat.
It's unlikely that this would provoke a stronger response from the TSAB, since the TSAB needs to be primarily concerned about administered worlds and can't afford to throw away more mages. Especially when the present members of Riot Force Six were THE most powerful mages they could field. There's no one equal to Hayate.
Why not eliminate the few people who could possibly threaten you, and scare away the Bureau that gets in your way? Especially when the evil virus in your head is compelling you to kill people?
Why prey exclusively on the powerless?
Curren could have killed Hayate, Vita and Erio. The Huckebein in general could have killed everyone present when Hayate's glacier ceased to be a threat.
It's unlikely that this would provoke a stronger response from the TSAB, since the TSAB needs to be primarily concerned about administered worlds and can't afford to throw away more mages. Especially when the present members of Riot Force Six were THE most powerful mages they could field. There's no one equal to Hayate.
Why not eliminate the few people who could possibly threaten you, and scare away the Bureau that gets in your way? Especially when the evil virus in your head is compelling you to kill people?
Why prey exclusively on the powerless?
Potentially hundreds to thousands of Lost Logia, which the Eclipse Infectee's have no idea if they can survive.
And a host of other things, like ships, manpower, and the confirmed fact that weapons that can actually harm them are being made.
Plus the fact that killing a "big name" like Hayate or the rest of Sections Six would attract all kinds of attention. The Huckebein still need food and other resources in order to survive. Being blacklisted from the Black Market because their contacts consider it to risky to be near them could really hurt them.
ragnarok1337 said:
Nice ad hominem attack, but no. Nanoha was abnormal in that she had a ton of magical power, but she literally worked herself to near-death over the course of several years to get where she is now, and even when she toned it down after her recovery she still worked hard. She was also incredibly mature for her age, even when she was nine, and has only matured further from there.
By contrast, Thoma is a very typical, male, angst-ridden main character with a Story Breaker Power pulled out of nowhere that can beat out the established and well-developed main characters of previous seasons with little effort. Oh, and he feels a debt towards the Huckebein for receiving help from them despite the fact they're wanted criminals. His latest comments to both Signum and Cypha, where he wishes both the hero and the psychotic good luck and tells them to do their best before they fight, suggest Tohma has serious issues.
By contrast, Thoma is a very typical, male, angst-ridden main character with a Story Breaker Power pulled out of nowhere that can beat out the established and well-developed main characters of previous seasons with little effort. Oh, and he feels a debt towards the Huckebein for receiving help from them despite the fact they're wanted criminals. His latest comments to both Signum and Cypha, where he wishes both the hero and the psychotic good luck and tells them to do their best before they fight, suggest Tohma has serious issues.
But we're dealing here with a hero who is more than willing to help out friend and foe alike, who hears a telepathic call for help and responds, saving the one who sent it while gaining great power at the same time. Yeah, I forgot that they are different people; one is male.
I mostly kid, but Thoma was also inflicted with a disease that could turn him into a lump of flesh at any time, and can take over his body against his will, and is attacking his mental stability from the inside, and causes a large body of individuals to carefully monitor and control his activity and movement. Oh, and could very well kill his friends and family in an instant unless he keeps it under control. Oh yeah, he's also got the nagging issue that his friends and family were already killed, slaughtered along with everyone else he knew, and it caused him to grow up bitter and angry.
So, apparently one hero is abnormal for having incredible power, but another is not. I'll have to study this possible contradiction further...
If there was any evidence of that, perhaps in a flashback, I would grant you that. However, there is none. At all. It's simply an Informed Flaw.
Okay, maybe millions was a bit high. Make it more like thousands. Each. That's not much better. It took Cypha a few minutes to remember exactly which colony Signum was accusing her of slaughtering, in spite of the fact that she personally murdered every single one of the nearly eighty inhabitants. This implies that she has done it many times before. Oh, and that colony? It was the population of the entire planet.
Arnage strips Isis naked for absolutely no reason, then mocks her lack of a bust.
Since the appearance of the Huckebein, who are completely immune to magical attacks, the TSAB ban on mass based weapons has been relaxed somewhat. As a result Special Service Section 6 is now equipped with experimental hybrid weapons that convert magical energy into pure kinetic energy or plasma... and are still proving mostly useless against the Huckebein. These weapons can punch through starship armor, therefore the Hucks somehow have personal armor greater than a battleship.
Conventional devices shatter upon contact with their bodies. On top of their invincibility, they have near-instantaneous regeneration, so if you DO manage to somehow wound them it will do jack and shit. When they "react" they acquire new Divider forms and in some cases new armor and physical features. They also become more invincible.
To top it all off, all of them know exactly how invincible they are, and won't hesitate to tell you how futile it is to try and fight them.
Conventional devices shatter upon contact with their bodies. On top of their invincibility, they have near-instantaneous regeneration, so if you DO manage to somehow wound them it will do jack and shit. When they "react" they acquire new Divider forms and in some cases new armor and physical features. They also become more invincible.
To top it all off, all of them know exactly how invincible they are, and won't hesitate to tell you how futile it is to try and fight them.
By the way, let me help: the term you are looking for is actually "Villain Sue" not "Mary Sue" since we are dealing with the antagonists. And I have to agree, since having got up to episode 5 in the first season, I must conclude that Fate is a Villain Sue... she's been all but invincible so far, knows she's better than Nanoha, and tells her that fact several times!
Here's Thoma's introduction: We meet him, then find out that he's Subaru's little sister, and they have known each other for years. Then we find out that he's good friends with the rest of the Nanoha cast. Anyone remember him from StrikerS? The Sound Stages? Vivid?! No. It's a horrible case of Remember The New Guy. And no, this by itself wouldn't ruin Force for most people. It's this on top of everything else.
By the way, Subaru meets Thoma for the first time after Sound Stage X, which is after StrikerS. So naturally, he wouldn't have been in StrikerS. He doesn't have a role in Vivid, and to be honest, with Vivid's already bloated cast, he's not someone that needs to be shown.
You're kidding, right? The powerups they specifically created to deal with the Hucks do jack and shit. Recently they were all curbstomped by one of the Hucks, and how did they survive? Deus Ex Machina. The bad guy literally said "I could kill you now, but I won't." No reason was give. At all.
However, you are still are missing the fact that they drove the Hucks to retreat... which until now was something the TSAB could not do. Fate stood up to Deville, Subaru matched Veyron. Oh, and they also took down the Grendels in their second time out vs. Eclipse infectees. Looks like they are getting better after all, and enable RF6 to accomplish things. So, actually pretty darn useful.
Look, dude, really, it's okay. You can safely admit to personally not liking Force. There is no need to get so hateful, and try to drum up justification for your preferences. Do you think that if you say you hate it enough times, people will swing to your viewpoint? It really doesn't work that way. Force sells well, and looks like it will continue selling well for the foreseeable future. It isn't going away, if that's what you want. You'd have to learn Japanese and haunt Japanese Nanoha forums to do anything there.
I don't much like Madoka, but I know many do. I try to avoid going onto Madoka forums and trying to tell people there that Madoka sucks. It's a respect thing. It would be pointless of me to try and do so, an just make me look like a hateful jerk. So, just a suggestion, but you may want to go with, "Yeah, I know. But I still don't like Force." and just leave it at that. It really doesn't make someone look good, to go on hateful spiels in forums dedicated to things people like. For some odd reason, that causes the entire forum to turn against you.
Kaijo said:
All things that would be considered personal opinion. By the way, my response to you wasn't an ad hominem attack. You might want to look up the definition of such, because if I were to use an ad hominem attack, I'd be attacking you personally. I didn't.
But we're dealing here with a hero who is more than willing to help out friend and foe alike, who hears a telepathic call for help and responds, saving the one who sent it while gaining great power at the same time. Yeah, I forgot that they are different people; one is male.
So, apparently one hero is abnormal for having incredible power, but another is not. I'll have to study this possible contradiction further...
But we're dealing here with a hero who is more than willing to help out friend and foe alike, who hears a telepathic call for help and responds, saving the one who sent it while gaining great power at the same time. Yeah, I forgot that they are different people; one is male.
So, apparently one hero is abnormal for having incredible power, but another is not. I'll have to study this possible contradiction further...
You don't need evidence to deduce that normal psychological trauma has taken place.
Don't quite understand the tactical value of the taunt, do you? Let me help: I confronted this one guy, and told him I did really nasty things to his mother, his sister, and his girlfriend. It made him really angry and it was easier to take him down in a fight. Was it true? No, but it still riled him up. People are funny that way.
By the way, let me help: the term you are looking for is actually "Villain Sue" not "Mary Sue" since we are dealing with the antagonists. And I have to agree, since having got up to episode 5 in the first season, I must conclude that Fate is a Villain Sue... she's been all but invincible so far, knows she's better than Nanoha, and tells her that fact several times!
In StrikerS, we hadn't heard of Shari before, or Griffith, despite the cast knowing them. This is a problem? They don't show us everyone that the cast knows.
By the way, Subaru meets Thoma for the first time after Sound Stage X, which is after StrikerS. So naturally, he wouldn't have been in StrikerS. He doesn't have a role in Vivid, and to be honest, with Vivid's already bloated cast, he's not someone that needs to be shown.
By the way, Subaru meets Thoma for the first time after Sound Stage X, which is after StrikerS. So naturally, he wouldn't have been in StrikerS. He doesn't have a role in Vivid, and to be honest, with Vivid's already bloated cast, he's not someone that needs to be shown.
The devices are imperfect, and still a work in progress. Perhaps you haven't created prototypes before, but it is a difficult process. There is a lot of trial and error, especially dealing with advanced equipment. But I presume you could better create an advanced piece of equipment and have it function perfectly the first time you put it together?
Look, dude, really, it's okay. You can safely admit to personally not liking Force. There is no need to get so hateful, and try to drum up justification for your preferences. Do you think that if you say you hate it enough times, people will swing to your viewpoint? It really doesn't work that way. Force sells well, and looks like it will continue selling well for the foreseeable future. It isn't going away, if that's what you want. You'd have to learn Japanese and haunt Japanese Nanoha forums to do anything there.
I don't much like Madoka, but I know many do. I try to avoid going onto Madoka forums and trying to tell people there that Madoka sucks. It's a respect thing. It would be pointless of me to try and do so, an just make me look like a hateful jerk. So, just a suggestion, but you may want to go with, "Yeah, I know. But I still don't like Force." and just leave it at that. It really doesn't make someone look good, to go on hateful spiels in forums dedicated to things people like. For some odd reason, that causes the entire forum to turn against you.
ragnarok1337 said:
Nice ability to ignore half of my argument. Nanoha did have an abnormal amount of power, but she supplemented it with Training From Hell. By contrast Thoma has done nothing, and he mysteriously has a Story-Breaking power that makes him stronger than pretty much everyone else.
What's that old phrase? "Assuming makes an ass out of U and me? So far we have absolutely no evidence that they regret their actions.
See above. From what we've seen on-screen, she's being entirely honest.
BFirst, did you seriously just try and defend your argument by saying I got a TvTropes term wrong? Second, Nanoha just got started learning magic maybe three days ago. And Fate was just introduced in the previous episode. By contrast in Force everyone has years of experience, especially the Wolkenritter, and they get curbstomped. And while Fate was apologetic and you could tell she didn't want to fight, the Huckebein are complete assholes about it. You are seriously comparing Fate and the Hucks? You must have as many mental issues as Thoma.
Oh, also, I started watching A's, and I saw Nanoha, Fate, and Arf get curbstomped! Man, those Wolkies are really invincible. They must be Mary Sues.
Three words. Ten. Year. Timeskip. Oh, and we're never actually shown how Subaru and Thoma meet, or how the rest of the cast knows him. We're told with maybe two lines of exposition, but nothing other than that. Vivid has almost as much problems as Force, but in the opposite direction, so comparing the two kind of shoots you in the foot.
The Cartridge System worked perfectly when it was adapted for Mid-Childan devices. The newly-developed Blaster System worked perfectly when Nanoha uses it, and it takes her a relatively short time to recover from a Cast From Hit Points weapon. Subaru and Genja Nakajima, despite being prototype cyborgs, are perfectly able to fight with their modern bretheren. Fate herself is a prototype, and look how she turned out even in the first season. So yeah, the "weapons not working because they are prototypes" theory doesn't hold water.
Subaru and Ginga got tuned and trained for years, and Fate had several years of training as well, after many failures before Precia was even able to clone someone with Alicia's memories. You'll need more examples, dude.
There are plenty of video games and movie sequels that aren't any good, but they still sell well simply because they have the brand name behind it. Anyway, source for sales statistics? I am not simply saying I hate Force. You're right; it's kind of pointless to whine about it. That's why I am showing why it is so bad, with actual logical, though-out reasons.
If I were in the minority, yes. But a large majority of people hate Force.
By the way, how many people are in that majority of hating it? Because I know about 20,000-30,000 people that really like it, and thus buy the manga every month. You got hard numbers on your end?
Kaijo said:
Oh, also, I started watching A's, and I saw Nanoha, Fate, and Arf get curbstomped! Man, those Wolkies are really invincible. They must be Mary Sues.
After the Cartridge upgrade, Nanoha and Fate have three more battles with Signum and Vita over the course of the second season, all of which are interrupted by the Masked Man before a clear victor could be decided.
Their next (known) fight was in the supplemental manga; the Mid vs Belkan team battle aboard HQ, which somehow turned into a firepower-showdown between Nanoha&Fate and Hayate. Again, an inconclusive draw.
The last (known) fight is Nanoha's exhibition match with Signum, and while Signum didn't officially win before the match was called short, she was notably less phased by the last exchange than Nanoha, who needed Fate's help to remain steady.
Actually, the majority don't really have strong feelings one way or the other.
Nanya said:
Huh... You're right.
And, there's the fact that in every rematch Fate had against Signum, Fate lost.
Hmm...
And, there's the fact that in every rematch Fate had against Signum, Fate lost.
Hmm...
A nitpick I know, but still you have to give Fate props for winning at least two matches.
With regards to the Nanoha vs Signum match, the first one was in the StrikerS manga. It was cut short because as Signum stated, it turned into a brawl.
Hoki said:
I am waiting for ragnarok1337's friends to show up and give their *ehem* opinions on how much Force sucks. After all, he did play the "Summon Backup" card.
Sunder the Gold said:
Clearly, it goes like this:
Striker < Ace < WOLKENRITTER
Even the Ace of Aces isn't a Wolkenritter!
EDIT: Yes, but consistency is key. "I fear not the man who hits the target once out of a thousand times, but the one who hits the target one thousand out of a thousand times", or something like that.
Striker < Ace < WOLKENRITTER
Even the Ace of Aces isn't a Wolkenritter!
EDIT: Yes, but consistency is key. "I fear not the man who hits the target once out of a thousand times, but the one who hits the target one thousand out of a thousand times", or something like that.
"I fear not a man who knows 1000 moves he practiced once, I fear the man who has practiced one move 1000 times though."
In Magical Pony Lyrical Twilight, the Wolkenritter's badassitude is conserved.
They ARE defeated in the rematch, but only because it wasn't a duel. They were first engaged by Chrono, who tied them up long enough that Princess Luna could catch them in a containment field (a la their own Defenster Magi).
Then Chrono, Yuuno, Fate, Arf, Twilight Sparkle (with Raising Heart), Rainbow Dash (with magical protective armor), Shining Armor and Sister Shache Noera all teamed up against the Wolkenritter at once, splitting the Cloud Knights up and dog-piling them into submission.
Shamal was also not present (for all the good it would have done them) since she was monitoring their Mistress' health.
EDIT: Yes, I remembered that exact saying, but I couldn't quite recall any saying I've heard for consistency of results. So I cannibalized one to flesh out the other.
They ARE defeated in the rematch, but only because it wasn't a duel. They were first engaged by Chrono, who tied them up long enough that Princess Luna could catch them in a containment field (a la their own Defenster Magi).
Then Chrono, Yuuno, Fate, Arf, Twilight Sparkle (with Raising Heart), Rainbow Dash (with magical protective armor), Shining Armor and Sister Shache Noera all teamed up against the Wolkenritter at once, splitting the Cloud Knights up and dog-piling them into submission.
Shamal was also not present (for all the good it would have done them) since she was monitoring their Mistress' health.
EDIT: Yes, I remembered that exact saying, but I couldn't quite recall any saying I've heard for consistency of results. So I cannibalized one to flesh out the other.
Kaijo said:
That's why Signum kicked his butt? That's why he's not getting training? Oh wait... he is.
You know, they never said gravity was 1G on Mid-Childa, like it is on Earth. I guess, according to you, then, we can't know if it is true. Oh, they also haven't really shown that Mid-Childa people are really human. So, I guess if we were to assume that, it would merely be making an ass out of us, eh?
Maybe she is... but according to you, we haven't actually seen her do it, so we can't assume she has. After all, that would be making an ass out of u and me, right?
Maybe she is... but according to you, we haven't actually seen her do it, so we can't assume she has. After all, that would be making an ass out of u and me, right?
Now that is an ad hominem attack. you directly went at my "mental issues." Do you really want to resort to that?
False. We ARE shown how Subaru and Thoma met. While he was a kid, stumbling around looking for the killers, he ran into Subaru training alone in the mountains. He was drawn to the scent of her food, and she shared it with him. Do you need me to quote you chapter and page in the Force manga?
Actually, before Nanoha and Fate, the cartridge system was fairly unreliable, and most people didn't use it. Nanoha and Fate made it popular, and even then there was a danger to their devices (RH tends to get damaged when Nanoha overdoes it). Blaster was also in development and had been tested for some time, prior to StrikerS. It wasn't something that was put into immediate use following it's completion.
Subaru and Ginga got tuned and trained for years, and Fate had several years of training as well, after many failures before Precia was even able to clone someone with Alicia's memories. You'll need more examples, dude.
But what is your goal here? Do you expect everyone to go, "Oh, you're right. I used to like Force, and now I hate it. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways!" Because that doesn't really happen. As I said, when you go onto a forum where people like something and declare that something sucks, people tend to dislike you for it. You never really convince anyone, meaning it is pretty much pointless.
By the way, how many people are in that majority of hating it? Because I know about 20,000-30,000 people that really like it, and thus buy the manga every month. You got hard numbers on your end?
Smuthunter said:
I never could get used to that fic's ponification fetish. Good story otherwise.
What ponification fetish? It's only really happened to two people, and both of them have solid reasons to not care about returning to human form for the foreseeable future. The transformation effect was also a factor in dissuading Ancient Belka from invading.
But yes, GREAT story. Purple Prose has used each backstory to fix the other's holes in such a way that I tend to forget that it's a crossover!