Nanoha Force

[KageX]

Honestly Force is a mess for the simple reason that the Huckebein are utter scum and attempts at making them sympathetic fall flat.

They know the TSAB is developing ways to help those infected by the Eclipse.

Instead they keep killing people.

They know the TSAB is going after those responsible for releasing the Eclipse Virus. Instead of helping with the investigation they say "but we have the right to do things our way and kill everyone involved, even the workers at these facilities who don't know about the illegal experiments!"

These things however can be understood due to their past crimes, but really the fact of the matter is the Huckebein are just a group of assholes who I could care less if they all died by the end of the series.

It is very hard to sympathize with them when there exists treatments to a disease that forces them to kill people and they don't even try to steal the information on it and recreate it for themselves.

They are happy to continue killing and have no interest in any form of "treatment" or a possible cure.

That alone crosses the line for me, even more so then the "Mary Sue Antagonist" villain flags they keep tripping.

 

[Akiyoshi]

If it helps it's mostly implied they're not the main threat now. Hades have a clear Trump card over them and is clearly Evil instead of just an asshole.

 

[Van Silverlight]

Unless the author make the huckebein actions seems reasonable somehow,they still trash for me.Killing because of the virus/stay alive/reasons?No prob...

KILLING BECAUSE YOU FEEL BORED?Nope.

But at least they are more realistic than Touma...

 

[Hoki]

Nah, that probobly doesn' help at all.

Hades, evil as he is, actually has a reason for experimenting and killing people with the Eclipse. More specifically, he wants to market it as an alternative to magic. The Hucks have no such reason, or any reason apart from "it's a side effect of the virus, we can' help it."

 

[Akiyoshi]

More specifically, he wants to market it as an alternative to magic.

Or se he says at least. We don't know what's his ultimate goal nor what he's really meaning with those words. Time will tell (hopefully).

 

[Hoki]

More specifically, he wants to market it as an alternative to magic.

Or se he says at least. We don't know what's his ultimate goal nor what he's really meaning with those words. Time will tell (hopefully).

If I were to guess, I think he means it. after all, "marketing" it doesn't specifically mean he has to do it legally. He's probably going to sell the final tech to the highest bidder, which may or may not have beef with the TSAB. Pretty soon, all sorts of terrorist and criminal organizations would want a weapon that would allow them to curb-stomp mages, which means more money for Hades.

 

[Akiyoshi]

Good thing the TSAB already started to work on options as soon as Scaglietti proved that anti-magic is viable.

 

[Van Silverlight]

Concerning about Urobuchi earlier,let's admit,even some of the FORCE main cast die,we still like the story anyway...

 

[Akiyoshi]

In FORCE case it's more of I like the story it could be. But it's still better than nothing.

I like ViVid but it misses much of the awesome half of Nanoha (it does have many awesome parts but it feels kind of hollow without proper conflict). Just like FORCE lacks in the characterization and idealistic department. If we ever get a season 5 (veery doubtful) I hope to see those elements blended again.

 

[Tennie]

More specifically, he wants to market it as an alternative to magic.

Or se he says at least. We don't know what's his ultimate goal nor what he's really meaning with those words. Time will tell (hopefully).

If I were to guess, I think he means it. after all, "marketing" it doesn't specifically mean he has to do it legally. He's probably going to sell the final tech to the highest bidder, which may or may not have beef with the TSAB. Pretty soon, all sorts of terrorist and criminal organizations would want a weapon that would allow them to curb-stomp mages, which means more money for Hades.

Personally, I get the feeling that either he does mean it that way (which would make him out to be crazy, outright criminal, or both), or he's been "possessed", so to speak, by the virus and isn't in his right mind. Again, only time will tell the tale.

 

[TC_Hazard]

In FORCE case it's more of I like the story it could be. But it's still better than nothing.

This... yeah, this is exactly how I feel about FORCE.

 

[Justin_Brett]

I do kinda count writing by the seat of your pants as asspulls, just because writing from that perspective means you're more likely to put out ideas that are not completely well thought out.

 

[Van Silverlight]

nevertheless,FORCE is a good and suitable platform to show to us that TSAB is not always good guys...They could use Touma to express that

 

[Rising Dragon]

We already got that in A's and StrikerS. What on Earth gives you the idea that the Bureau is in the wrong in Force?

 

[Amaranth]

The dimension tearing cannon that couldn't dent their airship.

They only used a standard magic cannon against the Esquad Huckebein. The Arc-en-Ciel is not a standard Bureau warship weapon, and needs to be installed in a ship under specific circumstances. Given that the weapon affects the area around where it's fired, it could feasibly take out the Esquad Huckebein.

That said, given the sheer destructive scope of the Arc-en-Ciel's capabilities, I seriously doubt Hayate would ever have it fired on the Esquad Huckebein while it's in-atmosphere.

They were in the middle of the ocean, so that wouldn't be much of a problem if clearance is granted. That said, I recall them getting hit by an Arc en Ciel and the Esquad coming out unscathed.

When was this? The only thing I remembered is that Hayate summoned a giant iceberg over the Esquad, and threatened to flatten them flat if they didn't surrender. The cannon fire was supplied by Erio and Vita.

EDIT: Apparently, the Wolfram has a mini arc-en-ciel cannon named Augusto, which was probably what Amaranth was talking about.

Besides, given that the Arc-en-ciel is their nuke, even if they were in the middle of the ocean, the damage would possibly take out well, the ocean and any living thing under it, not to mention a sizable piece of land.

Never said it was. The Arc en Ciel and Augusto are completely different weapons. I'm talking about a previous run in they had where a TSAB fleet Arc en Ciel'ed them into oblivion and then it turns out they didn't.

Where is it said that the Augusto cannon is an Arc-en-Ciel? The Arc-en-Ciel doesn't not come off as a weapon that could come off as miniaturized for safe usage, because the Arc-en-Ciel isn't your run-of-the-mill beam cannon. The projectile rips open an unstable rift in the dimension, and causes catastrophic damage upon collapsing back in on itself. Catastrophic enough where standard procedure is for the warship that uses it to immediately teleport to a safe distance upon firing it, which did NOT happen with the Wolfram.

The Augusto Cannon is far more likely to be like the weapons fielded by Chrono's fleet when they destroyed the Saint's Cradle.

I think people blow it out of proportions. They were willing to use it on the Book of Darkness' defense program, which was stationed a few kilometers from Uminari. Something tells me it's less the world ending gamma ray burst or Roland Emmerich Yellowstone Caldera nuke people are making it out to be and is more like rolling Tsar Bomba, original ordinance out.

That said, I'd wager Chrono was not fielding Augusto cannons either. The Augusto seemed more like high caliber magical ordinance than what Chrono was using when he blew the Saint's Cradle apart.

Honestly Force is a mess for the simple reason that the Huckebein are utter scum and attempts at making them sympathetic fall flat.

They know the TSAB is developing ways to help those infected by the Eclipse.

Instead they keep killing people.

They know the TSAB is going after those responsible for releasing the Eclipse Virus. Instead of helping with the investigation they say "but we have the right to do things our way and kill everyone involved, even the workers at these facilities who don't know about the illegal experiments!"

These things however can be understood due to their past crimes, but really the fact of the matter is the Huckebein are just a group of assholes who I could care less if they all died by the end of the series.

It is very hard to sympathize with them when there exists treatments to a disease that forces them to kill people and they don't even try to steal the information on it and recreate it for themselves.

They are happy to continue killing and have no interest in any form of "treatment" or a possible cure.

That alone crosses the line for me, even more so then the "Mary Sue Antagonist" villain flags they keep tripping.

That doesn't bode well with me.

They keep searching for the Eclipse's origin something, so I believe that they may have reasons of their own. This is why I actually sympathize with them...

Nah, that probobly doesn' help at all.

Hades, evil as he is, actually has a reason for experimenting and killing people with the Eclipse. More specifically, he wants to market it as an alternative to magic. The Hucks have no such reason, or any reason apart from "it's a side effect of the virus, we can' help it."

I should remind you that what happens when you don't kill or have an Strosek to keep the Eclipse's progression in check, that what happens afterwards isn't pretty.

That said, if they discover killing animals does the work, then I'm calling them "the Cullens" from there on in.

More specifically, he wants to market it as an alternative to magic.

Or se he says at least. We don't know what's his ultimate goal nor what he's really meaning with those words. Time will tell (hopefully).

He said something about using them as energy, but who knows...

Good thing the TSAB already started to work on options as soon as Scaglietti proved that anti-magic is viable.

Which I hate. Multiversal space NATO can't be that competent (they still have to have their asses kicked by a rogue world)!

In FORCE case it's more of I like the story it could be. But it's still better than nothing.

This... yeah, this is exactly how I feel about FORCE.

Ditto...

I do kinda count writing by the seat of your pants as asspulls, just because writing from that perspective means you're more likely to put out ideas that are not completely well thought out.

If so, then Bleach in and on itself is an asspull.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Never said it was. The Arc en Ciel and Augusto are completely different weapons. I'm talking about a previous run in they had where a TSAB fleet Arc en Ciel'ed them into oblivion and then it turns out they didn't.

First I've ever heard of this. Got a source?

Where is it said that the Augusto cannon is an Arc-en-Ciel? The Arc-en-Ciel doesn't not come off as a weapon that could come off as miniaturized for safe usage, because the Arc-en-Ciel isn't your run-of-the-mill beam cannon. The projectile rips open an unstable rift in the dimension, and causes catastrophic damage upon collapsing back in on itself. Catastrophic enough where standard procedure is for the warship that uses it to immediately teleport to a safe distance upon firing it, which did NOT happen with the Wolfram.

The Augusto Cannon is far more likely to be like the weapons fielded by Chrono's fleet when they destroyed the Saint's Cradle.

I think people blow it out of proportions. They were willing to use it on the Book of Darkness' defense program, which was stationed a few kilometers from Uminari. Something tells me it's less the world ending gamma ray burst or Roland Emmerich Yellowstone Caldera nuke people are making it out to be and is more like rolling Tsar Bomba, original ordinance out.

That said, I'd wager Chrono was not fielding Augusto cannons either. The Augusto seemed more like high caliber magical ordinance than what Chrono was using when he blew the Saint's Cradle apart.

The one scene we have of the Augusto firing in the manga shows your atypical magical beam, and it matches up with the weapons fired by Chrono's fleet. Until we get a source claiming otherwise, we might as well consider the weapons used by the Claudia and the Wolfram the one and the same.

As far as the Arc-en-Ciel is concerned, no, it's not a world-ending weapon, but what we do know is that it blast radius of its function has an effective range of 100 kilometers, so it's still extremely destructive when used in-atmosphere. The requirement to teleport to safety after firing isn't an exaggeration either; that was listed in the supplemental materials and demonstrated in A's proper both times it was used.

 

[Tennie]

As far as the Arc-en-Ciel is concerned, no, it's not a world-ending weapon, but what we do know is that it blast radius of its function has an effective range of 100 kilometers, so it's still extremely destructive when used in-atmosphere. The requirement to teleport to safety after firing isn't an exaggeration either; that was listed in the supplemental materials and demonstrated in A's proper both times it was used.

Well, keep in mind that the crust of the Earth, at its thickest point (underneath the Tibetan Plateau and the Himalayan Mountains to its immediate south) is "only" about 70 kilometers or so. So if one were to detonate an Arc-en-Ciel on top of Mount Everest (or anywhere else on Earth, for that matter), you'll expose the mantle immediately underneath. One can only guess as to what kinds of effects that it'll have on the Earth's surface and all that live on it!:jawdrop:

 

[Amaranth]

Never said it was. The Arc en Ciel and Augusto are completely different weapons. I'm talking about a previous run in they had where a TSAB fleet Arc en Ciel'ed them into oblivion and then it turns out they didn't.

First I've ever heard of this. Got a source?

Not until I reread Force and check. I do remember talk about the Huckebein and that they had been close to getting to them, but something happened and they didn't.

Where is it said that the Augusto cannon is an Arc-en-Ciel? The Arc-en-Ciel doesn't not come off as a weapon that could come off as miniaturized for safe usage, because the Arc-en-Ciel isn't your run-of-the-mill beam cannon. The projectile rips open an unstable rift in the dimension, and causes catastrophic damage upon collapsing back in on itself. Catastrophic enough where standard procedure is for the warship that uses it to immediately teleport to a safe distance upon firing it, which did NOT happen with the Wolfram.

The Augusto Cannon is far more likely to be like the weapons fielded by Chrono's fleet when they destroyed the Saint's Cradle.

I think people blow it out of proportions. They were willing to use it on the Book of Darkness' defense program, which was stationed a few kilometers from Uminari. Something tells me it's less the world ending gamma ray burst or Roland Emmerich Yellowstone Caldera nuke people are making it out to be and is more like rolling Tsar Bomba, original ordinance out.

That said, I'd wager Chrono was not fielding Augusto cannons either. The Augusto seemed more like high caliber magical ordinance than what Chrono was using when he blew the Saint's Cradle apart.

The one scene we have of the Augusto firing in the manga shows your atypical magical beam, and it matches up with the weapons fired by Chrono's fleet. Until we get a source claiming otherwise, we might as well consider the weapons used by the Claudia and the Wolfram the one and the same.

As far as the Arc-en-Ciel is concerned, no, it's not a world-ending weapon, but what we do know is that it blast radius of its function has an effective range of 100 kilometers, so it's still extremely destructive when used in-atmosphere. The requirement to teleport to safety after firing isn't an exaggeration either; that was listed in the supplemental materials and demonstrated in A's proper both times it was used.
[/quote]

I know it's still one big uber nuke. But, depending on the kind of blast radius we're referring to, the Arc en Ciel could go from being 50, to just 2 full powered Tsar Bombas (it's blast radius goes from 1.88 miles to up to 47 miles).

Of course, I'm assuming that they are firing so that the crust won't be affected. If the cannon is really that precise, they should be able to adjust it so as to not impact the crust.

You see, the problem is that the Arc is not a thermonuclear weapon, but would lean more towards "antimatter" cannon because everything within an specific range is annihilated regardless of what's inside, whereas a nuke detonated in the same circumstances would meet resistance from the Earth's crust and the water, the Arc en Ciel would simply swallow it all.

Plus, I doubt the TSAB wants to be responsible for putting an entire world in jeopardy... That or they can control the output and form over which is fired (which, given how magic seems to work, seems likely).

As far as the Arc-en-Ciel is concerned, no, it's not a world-ending weapon, but what we do know is that it blast radius of its function has an effective range of 100 kilometers, so it's still extremely destructive when used in-atmosphere. The requirement to teleport to safety after firing isn't an exaggeration either; that was listed in the supplemental materials and demonstrated in A's proper both times it was used.

Well, keep in mind that the crust of the Earth, at its thickest point (underneath the Tibetan Plateau and the Himalayan Mountains to its immediate south) is "only" about 70 kilometers or so. So if one were to detonate an Arc-en-Ciel on top of Mount Everest (or anywhere else on Earth, for that matter), you'll expose the mantle immediately underneath. One can only guess as to what kinds of effects that it'll have on the Earth's surface and all that live on it!:jawdrop:

If detonated in land. On the sea, the water would rush in to fill things in. It would still have devastating consequences for the immediacies surrounding the Sea of Japan, but the impact wouldn't be as catastrophic as we think.

Unless the blast radius really was fully spherical regardless (in which case, then Asia and much of the Pacific would be in deep shit), and I have my doubts about it.[/quote]

 

[Tennie]

If detonated in land. On the sea, the water would rush in to fill things in. It would still have devastating consequences for the immediacies surrounding the Sea of Japan, but the impact wouldn't be as catastrophic as we think.

Unless the blast radius really was fully spherical regardless (in which case, then Asia and much of the Pacific would be in deep shit), and I have my doubts about it.

Well, even if a major extinction event is somehow avoided, the TSAB will still have to explain to Earth's governments as to why there was a massive explosion off of Japan's coast (the largest explosion, in fact, since the asteroid impact that wiped out most of the dinosaurs).

 

[Van Silverlight]

We already got that in A's and StrikerS. What on Earth gives you the idea that the Bureau is in the wrong in Force?

I mean as an ORGANIZATION,not INDIVIDUALS...

 

[Rising Dragon]

And why would we need to demonstrate the Bureau as a whole to be evil/bad guys/etc? I can understand for the sake of a fanfic, but for the canon story? I don't see the reasoning behind why it's needed.

 

[Hoki]

Because clearly Graham and Regius are bad guys who are part of the TSAB higher ups, so the organization itself must be evil.

Kinda like SHIELD, some of their agents believe they are working for the good guys, then lo and behold, it turns out Hydra has been working within SHIELD.

If you think about it, Graham and Regius had the best interests in mind when they tried to enact their respective plans. Graham's mistakes are that he failed to consider the possibility of the supposed sealed B.O.D could be freed, either by its own or through outside interference, and that his protege would discover his motives. Regius' mistakes were using forbidden technology, and employing a mad scientist who clearly has his own agenda. There are still no reported cases of TSAB officials doing evil things for evil purposes (i.e take over Mid-Childa, purge normals, y'know evil stuff.)

 

[Akiyoshi]

You yourself said it. Graham and Regiuz weren't evil people, just well intentioned extremists desperate to solve a seemingly impossible conflict. The BoD ended happily but Regiuz's was just the beginning of something bigger that we're now seeing in FORCE. Even at their lowest the TSAB has never shown downright evil intentions. I guess you can turn them into bad guys by making them going the Ultron path and deciding they have to protect people from themselves or something. Thus declaring a dictatorship.

Personally I'm fed up with the whole "TSAB is Eeeeeeevil" concept because it has been burned to the ground by everyone for years and it got kind of boring. In fact, is one of the reasons I didn't enjoyed The Winter Soldier that much. I saw the "big reveal" coming from a mile and when everyone gasped I just sighed.

 

[Van Silverlight]

You yourself said it. Graham and Regiuz weren't evil people, just well intentioned extremists desperate to solve a seemingly impossible conflict. The BoD ended happily but Regiuz's was just the beginning of something bigger that we're now seeing in FORCE. Even at their lowest the TSAB has never shown downright evil intentions. I guess you can turn them into bad guys by making them going the Ultron path and deciding they have to protect people from themselves or something. Thus declaring a dictatorship.

Um,I'm confused with whoever this statement is point at...

I just think the A's just shallow at proving that concept while Strikers is above A's...

Nevertheless,I'm wondering whether Nanoha and the gang are sympathize with the Huckebein or not and if they are,I think they should stop that

 

[Akiyoshi]

It seems more likely now that they're finally developing effective non-lethal ways to subdue EC-Drivers and both Section Six and the Huckebein are about to have a common enemy.