Nanoha Force

Amaranth

Well-Known Member
Tennie said:
Amaranth said:
If detonated in land. On the sea, the water would rush in to fill things in. It would still have devastating consequences for the immediacies surrounding the Sea of Japan, but the impact wouldn't be as catastrophic as we think.

Unless the blast radius really was fully spherical regardless (in which case, then Asia and much of the Pacific would be in deep shit), and I have my doubts about it.
Well, even if a major extinction event is somehow avoided, the TSAB will still have to explain to Earth's governments as to why there was a massive explosion off of Japan's coast (the largest explosion, in fact, since the asteroid impact that wiped out most of the dinosaurs).
It won't happen at all, but they will indeed still have to explain why Castle Bravo and Tsar Bomba original ordinance went out in the Sea of Japan and the rasputitsa winter that will bury Japan and Korea under 2 meters worth of snow.

Rising Dragon said:
And why would we need to demonstrate the Bureau as a whole to be evil/bad guys/etc? I can understand for the sake of a fanfic, but for the canon story? I don't see the reasoning behind why it's needed.
Not really evil or bad guys, but it'd be nice to see a flawed TSAB. Like the US and the Iraq War.

The TSAB doesn't need to be evil, but we should get to see them being powerless (main cast included) for once to stop something. That feeling that the TSAB can't do this alone and needs help from others.

It's also a good chance to get new alliances to appear. After all, I'm pretty sure Mid Childa and Belka aren't everything.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
As long as they just doesn't turn the main cast into a bunch of incompetent fools all for the case of showcasing how awesome the new allies are. It was lame everytime Bleach did that.

It was wonderfully averted in A's. Even when outclassed by the Wolkenritter. Nanoha's friends managed to put up a fight and resist enough for Nanoha to get them out of there.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
Well there is this civil war in Orussia which the TSAB does nothing except provide aid to the refugees, simply because it's not their job to settle a country's affairs. Also, didn't the US win the Iraq War?

I don't think making the TSAB powerless would add anything to Force's story. The TSAB is limiting its own power because as evidenced by Lindy's exposition way back in season 1, worlds that gained too much power inevitably destroyed themselves. Heck, the entire conflict could be resolved if the TSAB lifted its own ban on mass weaponry, and simply rained Armageddon on the Hucks.

Also, other organizations which do not share the same ideals as the TSAB would only worsen the situation, making Force's story even more convoluted than it already is.
 
Hoki said:
Well there is this civil war in Orussia which the TSAB does nothing except provide aid to the refugees, simply because it's not their job to settle a country's affairs. Also, didn't the US win the Iraq War?
I think he meant the statement US made about Iraq is building WMD in the beginning of war...In the end,there were no WMD..It just US plan to seize control of country rich with oil.Now,let stop at that.

Its a good thing that TSAB doesn't meddle to much in orrusia affairs or it could be worse.(If" TSAB would interfere with Orrusia's conflict,I'm afraid it will be one side).My point?Either have a peace talk/whatever you callled it between the two faction in Orrusia and have they settle their differences with minimal support from TSAB or TSAB just use their superiority in Magic and Technology to cease both factions to stop fighting...

Hoki said:
I don't think making the TSAB powerless would add anything to Force's story. The TSAB is limiting its own power because as evidenced by Lindy's exposition way back in season 1, worlds that gained too much power inevitably destroyed themselves. Heck, the entire conflict could be resolved if the TSAB lifted its own ban on mass weaponry, and simply rained Armageddon on the Hucks.
This "ban of mass weaponry",does it aplly to firearm/device/weapons like Arc En Ciel?Man,TSAB start sounding like UN here...

Also, other organizations which do not share the same ideals as the TSAB would only worsen the situation, making Force's story even more convoluted than it already is.
[/quote]

I agree,too many organization would make FORCE more complicated/problematic...Hades is already enough for that Job
 

Amaranth

Well-Known Member
Akiyoshi said:
As long as they just doesn't turn the main cast into a bunch of incompetent fools all for the case of showcasing how awesome the new allies are. It was lame everytime Bleach did that.

It was wonderfully averted in A's. Even when outclassed by the Wolkenritter. Nanoha's friends managed to put up a fight and resist enough for Nanoha to get them out of there.
Getting them out of there is fine. If you're outclassed, being able to pull back isn't a bad thing... Though having some of the crew as Huck POWs would make things more interesting.

Also, the cast doesn't have to become a bunch of incompetent fools. The bad guys just have to outsmart them.

Hoki said:
Well there is this civil war in Orussia which the TSAB does nothing except provide aid to the refugees, simply because it's not their job to settle a country's affairs. Also, didn't the US win the Iraq War?

I don't think making the TSAB powerless would add anything to Force's story. The TSAB is limiting its own power because as evidenced by Lindy's exposition way back in season 1, worlds that gained too much power inevitably destroyed themselves. Heck, the entire conflict could be resolved if the TSAB lifted its own ban on mass weaponry, and simply rained Armageddon on the Hucks.

Also, other organizations which do not share the same ideals as the TSAB would only worsen the situation, making Force's story even more convoluted than it already is.
The war that they're doing nothing with.

I don't consider toppling Saddam a victory, given they spent nearly 10 years there, fighting terrorists and then withdrawing when said terrorists just wouldn't die.

Again, this has nothing to do with power. It has to do with the TSAB being in the wrong place at the wrong time and this costing them dearly.

That said, another organization stronger than them that didn't impose those mass weapon limitations upon themselves and is doing fine would be a good thing indeed.

For one, I think part of Hades plan is to market the Eclipse as an alternative because not everyone can be a mage, but a perfected Eclipse could give anyone Eclipse powers.

It won't be convoluted if they stop pulling one card after the other without turning them face up.

Van Silverlight said:
Hoki said:
Well there is this civil war in Orussia which the TSAB does nothing except provide aid to the refugees, simply because it's not their job to settle a country's affairs. Also, didn't the US win the Iraq War?
I think he meant the statement US made about Iraq is building WMD in the beginning of war...In the end,there were no WMD..It just US plan to seize control of country rich with oil.Now,let stop at that.
Yeah, that's about it. That and that they turned tail and left without having accomplished anything other than triggering a financial crisis at home with a war that was depleting the Treasury.

I could've referenced the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan or the Vietnam War too, but those are more obscure nowadays and some of you might not be familiar with them.

Its a good thing that TSAB doesn't meddle to much in orrusia affairs or it could be worse.(If" TSAB would interfere with Orrusia's conflict,I'm afraid it will be one side).My point?Either have a peace talk/whatever you callled it between the two faction in Orrusia and have they settle their differences with minimal support from TSAB or TSAB just use their superiority in Magic and Technology to cease both factions to stop fighting...
That's what I dislike about them. I wish they'd had a run in with another world that boots them out and tells them to mind their own business. When everything is either TSAB aligned or underdeveloped, it isn't nearly as interesting since the TSAB can just impose their opinions on about anyone.

Hoki said:
I don't think making the TSAB powerless would add anything to Force's story. The TSAB is limiting its own power because as evidenced by Lindy's exposition way back in season 1, worlds that gained too much power inevitably destroyed themselves. Heck, the entire conflict could be resolved if the TSAB lifted its own ban on mass weaponry, and simply rained Armageddon on the Hucks.
This "ban of mass weaponry", does it apply to firearms/devices/weapons like Arc En Ciel? Man, TSAB starts sounding like UN here...

Also, other organizations which do not share the same ideals as the TSAB would only worsen the situation, making Force's story even more convoluted than it already is.


I agree, too many organizations would make FORCE more complicated/problematic... Hades is already enough for that job.
They sound more like NATO to me. Rules are the same for everyone... Except us, since we don't have competition.

Also, Hades is not really an organization. Just another Aizen... When he reveals he has an Eclipse Army of sorts, then things might start to get interesting.
 
Amaranth said:
Also, the cast doesn't have to become a bunch of incompetent fools. The bad guys just have to outsmart them.
True.Better than making one character stronger than any other characters.

Amaranth said:
That said, another organization stronger than them that didn't impose those mass weapon limitations upon themselves and is doing fine would be a good thing indeed.
What organization?

Amaranth said:
For one, I think part of Hades plan is to market the Eclipse as an alternative because not everyone can be a mage, but a perfected Eclipse could give anyone Eclipse powers.
I don't think that as a good method.Giving anybody awesome,hype,double edge power like Eclipse would only create a worse power struggle in society involving non-militant civilians.I said worse because it already happening without Eclipse involve:)P must be fanfic influence).

Let say,10 A rank mages with equal power and talent.Each of them want to prove they are better than the others.In the end,nobody gain benefits from this.Just like world war 1...

Amaranth said:
"not everyone can be a mage, but a perfected Eclipse could give anyone Eclipse powers."
Now,where I have seen this pattern?

Amaranth said:
It won't be convoluted if they stop pulling one card after the other without turning them face up.
They can do it if they at least expand the story of those organization,make them related to the Eclipse conflict and have some significant effect/part in it.Otherwise,it would be just like "Monster of the week" kind of thing...

Amaranth said:
That's what I dislike about them. I wish they'd had a run in with another world that boots them out and tells them to mind their own business. When everything is either TSAB aligned or underdeveloped, it isn't nearly as interesting since the TSAB can just impose their opinions on about anyone.
Yup,TSAB need to stop "I'm here to help you even though you wouldn't need it anyway" things.Which remind me,where did TSAB got financial aid for their weapons/missions/stuff anyway?TAX MONEY?


Amaranth said:
Also, Hades is not really an organization. Just another Aizen... When he reveals he has an Eclipse Army of sorts, then things might start to get interesting.
I know Hades is not an organization but just another Aizen and that make me felt frustrating.

You see,at the beginning,this guy make an awesome twist on the story and do something incredible(in term of Bleach) but never make a clear explanation why he did that...It just feel vague.And then came the "I'm stronger than you,no i am,no i am,bla,bla...."At this point,He just look stupid to me...(Ichigo/others didn't even kill him..for what?FOR GOD FORSAKING PLOT!)

If the Force author(i forgot his name) intend to make Hades like that,I suggest he should stop that.Otherwise,the readers(fanservice group not include)hate FORCE more than they already have.

PS:Sorry for the rash opinion/argument on Aizen if it make any of this forum visitors
annoyed.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Well the way I see it the TSAB is basically a Magical NATO, meant mostly to deal with the aftermath of the Belkan Wars, and to clean the sectors from the weapons that remained everywhere. While I can understand why some would be frustrated at how the TSAB can be sometimes, in the Nanoha setting it's probably one of the few things that are keeing the Dimensional Sea at peace, trying to fill the hole Belka left when it fell. The ban of mass weapons was probably meant to help disarm the soldiers after the Belkan War, which would have hindered the peace efforts after the War.

At least this is what I think happened.

Overall I do think that the TSAB are good guys, but that doesn't mean that it's system is perfect and it is open to corruption and mistakes, just like many countries in the real world. That said, I do think that someone in it was involved with the Eclipse and Hades, even if it was just Hades bribing that person to cover up his experiments.

About the Eclipse, I think that Hades' plan is to use it as a medicine, if you can make a perfect Eclipse that could serve as a medicine, that would really net you tons of profit, plus the EC can be used as a power source, one that doesn't even depend on magic, which is also profitable. So in the end, it doesn't have to come to making everyone a EC Driver, but it could be about using this ancient Belkan Weapon in a new way to improve everyone lives, even if the process to get there is not the best one. At least that's what I think Hades' angle will be in FORCE.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
I wonder what really would happen to our heroes if the TSAB blatantly showed a case of high rank corruption. Sure maybe some of them would think of leaving or even opossing the organization but I bet some would also believe in the importance of what the TSAB represents and how much good has done in spite of its hidden agenda. Part of the main cast may probably remain sided with the TSAB and try to change things from within.
 
I guess the faults are on the viewer side.1st season of Nanoha show to us that this series would be just like any other mahou shoujo series(By that,I means happy ending) and then,BAM!Come the 2nd season,the masterpiece(personal opinion).It show us in real life,we are not always in happy and sunshine situation using Hayate.It also show us the people are not completely black and white by using Graham.His method are cruel but his intention are reasonable at least...

3rd season,I think the writers try to expand on those theme using Regius and High Council.Regius is a representation of individual who try to protect something precious to him/her at all cost even though he/she had to made a deal with the Devil himself(Jail).While High Council represent government/countries in our world.They believe they are doing something right for the right reasons but ultimately they are not.They didn't realize they already made a big mistake and themselves are already by the overwhelming purpose to protect peace in Dimension...(But honestly,STRIKERS ruined itself with unbalance casts,yuri shipping and etc)

FORCE seems pretty vague to me.I don't know where the story is headed.(Which is why I surfing this forum).Hades didn't strike to me as a person who wants profit in money/for the good of everybody/destroy everything...Maybe his actions have something to do with this "daughter" he speak of...
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Well, I don't doubt that Hades would mind profiting legally from his reasearch in the Eclipse, I kind of like that sort of capitalist spirit in him, it makes him interesting. But yeah, I feel that there is probably something more to him. I am not sure how original would be to make him another Precia, someone who is studying the Eclipse to try to save his daughter or something, but I feel that could work (I certainly used it myself in a quest I ran once).

If the TSAB was caught in a case of high-ranking corruption, I just see our main character just trialing that guy down, I mean, our cast already has connection with the high echelons of the TSAB, so I don't think that they would have to do something as extreme as rebelling. I feel that the TSAB is advanced enough as a society to be able to trial a high ranking official for corruption without having to start a civil war in the TSAB.

Moving on, I kind of wish Force explored some more about Lily and her sister (or is it sisters? Lily is the Fourth Strossek right? So does that mean that there are three others before her, we have Rosalia too, so maybe that might be true). Why is Lily as a reactor plug so different compared to the object-type reactor plugs and where are the other reactor plugs like her. How did Hades make her? I really want to know more about her.
 

Amaranth

Well-Known Member
Azure said:
Well the way I see it the TSAB is basically a Magical NATO, meant mostly to deal with the aftermath of the Belkan Wars, and to clean the sectors from the weapons that remained everywhere. While I can understand why some would be frustrated at how the TSAB can be sometimes, in the Nanoha setting it's probably one of the few things that are keeing the Dimensional Sea at peace, trying to fill the hole Belka left when it fell. The ban of mass weapons was probably meant to help disarm the soldiers after the Belkan War, which would have hindered the peace efforts after the War.

At least this is what I think happened.

Overall I do think that the TSAB are good guys, but that doesn't mean that it's system is perfect and it is open to corruption and mistakes, just like many countries in the real world. That said, I do think that someone in it was involved with the Eclipse and Hades, even if it was just Hades bribing that person to cover up his experiments.

About the Eclipse, I think that Hades' plan is to use it as a medicine, if you can make a perfect Eclipse that could serve as a medicine, that would really net you tons of profit, plus the EC can be used as a power source, one that doesn't even depend on magic, which is also profitable. So in the end, it doesn't have to come to making everyone a EC Driver, but it could be about using this ancient Belkan Weapon in a new way to improve everyone lives, even if the process to get there is not the best one. At least that's what I think Hades' angle will be in FORCE.
Which is why I demand Magical Russia to invade Magical Ukraine! :p

That aside, if Hades is after that, then that definitely makes him into a clone of Aizen Sousuke.

Akiyoshi said:
I wonder what really would happen to our heroes if the TSAB blatantly showed a case of high rank corruption. Sure maybe some of them would think of leaving or even opossing the organization but I bet some would also believe in the importance of what the TSAB represents and how much good has done in spite of its hidden agenda. Part of the main cast may probably remain sided with the TSAB and try to change things from within.
Then you get Code Geass. I just wonder which of the Aces would quit. She'd become my favorite Ace just because of that.
 
Amaranth said:
Which is why I demand Magical Russia to invade Magical Ukraine! :p
Which is M.Russia and Which is M.Ukraine?

Amaranth said:
Then you get Code Geass. I just wonder which of the Aces would quit. She'd become my favorite Ace just because of that.
Please don't repeat what suzaku did...

I would love to see that.It would be nice to see some ideology clash between them.It would also make us more understand the characters
 

Amaranth

Well-Known Member
Van Silverlight said:
Amaranth said:
Which is why I demand Magical Russia to invade Magical Ukraine! :p
Which is M.Russia and Which is M.Ukraine?
There are none, but there should be. Another organization like the TSAB that competes with them would be good for a change.

Van Silverlight said:
Amaranth said:
Then you get Code Geass. I just wonder which of the Aces would quit. She'd become my favorite Ace just because of that.
Please don't repeat what suzaku did...

I would love to see that.It would be nice to see some ideology clash between them.It would also make us more understand the characters
Suzaku was good because he was willing to oppose a majority decision for practical purposes. I really liked him because of that...

Believe it or not, the one that I could see leaving the TSAB or calling them out on their bullshit would be Fate. She strikes me as the sort of person who'd question something when it's wrong. Nanoha's more likely to have divided opinions, like Hayate.

To me, the best character are those who are willing to backstab their allies in the name of what's right. It means their beliefs are not as important as doing the right thing.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
Nanoha and particularly Vita paint me as the kind of people who will still believe in the potential good of the TSAB. They not only fight for them but had trained personally a good number of people there and have aquitances in the high ranks. Both love their work and care for their students (Vita is kind if over-protective even).

I can see Vita seriously questioning the merits of a rebellion and if that's really worth it.
 
I could see that it will be Fate too.She seems like a "black and white" kind of person to me.She also optimistic and very sympathizing in others.Rather than Nanoha,who is mostly pragmatic person(IF TALKING DOESN'T WORK,I JUST HAVE TO BEFRIEND HER!)Vita...maybe but ultimately,her loyalty lies with Hayate.Where Hayate goes,she goes...

Among these four,Fate has the highest possibility to become the "traitor" Ace...
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
I would be convinced of that with A's Vita. By StrikerS, she's still definetely fiercely loyal to Hayate but she now has matured and have her own view of things, her loyalty is not blind, she trusts Hayate but I bet she would have inner turmoil if descicions are taken that jeopardizes too many lives in her eyes.

Vita loves Hayate and her friends/family but I consider her capable of questioning them if the situation demands it.
 
I thought wolkenritter don't have free will in term of loyalty to their master?
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
Hayate allowed them free will to take their own desicions. They're loyal to her on their own will, that was the whole point of their character development.

They also deeply care for her and even when "forced" they had shown enough freedom to decide what they think it's best for their master. Vita will never turn directly against Hayate but that doesn't mean she can't have her doubts nor refusing to go with something she feels wrong. It goes against her character.
 

Amaranth

Well-Known Member
Van Silverlight said:
I could see that it will be Fate too.She seems like a "black and white" kind of person to me.She also optimistic and very sympathizing in others.Rather than Nanoha,who is mostly pragmatic person(IF TALKING DOESN'T WORK,I JUST HAVE TO BEFRIEND HER!)Vita...maybe but ultimately,her loyalty lies with Hayate.Where Hayate goes,she goes...

Among these four,Fate has the highest possibility to become the "traitor" Ace...
Indeed. After reading many fics with Fate as the main Ace, such as Raise the Dawn (which I enjoyed in spite of the bad ending) I can safely say that she'd be amongst the first batch of defectors... Specially since she's the most empathetic one now and the one that tries to "put herself in her enemies' shoes" most often.

Also, I agree with Akiyoshi in that Vita would likely follow next. Yuuno, if he was caught in a similar situation, would likely be the third (and probably the last one).
 
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