Nanoha Question

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#26
'Nother question.

So, Einhart Stratos has like the memories and magic and stuff of some Belkan warlord, Claus Ingvalt. Her parents are never mentioned.

Is she also a product of the TSAB's artificial mage program, like Jail and Vivio? Or what?
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#27
From the wiki.

It is revealed in chapter 6 of ViVid, that Einhart Stratos is a direct descendant of Ingvalt.

That confirms that she is not a clone or the result any form of experimentatio outside the type of stuff you try in your bedroom.
 
#28
bissek said:
Dark Knight Gafgar said:
Yeah, the TSAB was on the verge of nuking Japan from orbit at the end of As to prevent the Book of Darkness from going berserk, which would've ended in all life on Earth being wiped out - as has apparently happened on every other world the Book of Darkness has shown up on. Fortunately, a plan B became available.
Not all of Earth - but it would have reduced Uminari City to a crater - 100km across. It would have killed quite a lot of people, and the seismic implications of drilling a hole that deep aren't pleasant, but the world would survive.
I meant the Book of Darkness would've destroyed the Earth if left unchecked, not the orbital bombardment. That would've only eliminated Japan.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#29
zeebee1 said:
It is revealed in chapter 6 of ViVid, that Einhart Stratos is a direct descendant of Ingvalt.
I was aware of that; I thought that was probably more of a statistically unsurprising coincidence rather than an actual reason. I mean, it seems more likely to me the author didn't even bother with a slapdash excuse for why this girl is like a reincarnation or something, but I was kinda hoping it would be more than "she's his descendant," because that's pretty weak. Anyway that could be a revelation for the future, because it's not like these characters know everything, but the lack of plot in Vivid makes me doubt it.

Anyway the total lack of her parents when Vivid has been all about belonging and warm family feelings made me sensitized, so when I thought about it the first thing that came to mind was "well the TSAB already created Vivio"....
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#30
'nother question!

So like there was a throw-away line in the middle of StrikerS, and maybe a couple other places, about Nanoha!magic having/using a lot of math. Is this ever explained in greater depth? What kind of calculations are needed? Where? Why?
 

bissek

Well-Known Member
#31
I don't think the exact nature of the equations was ever mentioned, but the first reference to that was the As manga, which also stated that as a result of this, Fate (Age 9) was good enough at math to tutor Nanoha's sister Miyuki (Age 16).
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#32
Fate is a bit of a unique case, as she was brought up by tutors approved of by precia, and not having a general exposure to Midchilean education system.

Do remember though that differing fictional societies teach math at different rates... For example, one of the earliest Star Trek Next Generation episodes had a 8 year old child complaining about his calculus courses...
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#33
Well... my initial thought was that it's mostly, like, you plug specific case information into a general equation called a "spell" and turn the crank, and that spits out parameters like how much mana you need, and mana flow rate; basically a spell is a recipe for creating specific effects that changes based on local conditions.

To put it into a military metaphor, the kinds of equations that artillery officers use to calculate range and account for wind and whatever.

So a device is all the on-board hardware+software that works underneath the hood of a tank compared to Napoleonic dudes with a howitzer and a gradated sight.

But then Yuuno's like "I'm a specialist at complicated magic and I don't use a device" and I'm wondering if you really need all that much math or if he's Gauss reborn. And maybe the reason he had such a hard time with Raising Heart is, it runs on Windows for it's OS and he's used to Unix.

I just, I find it really unlikely that math is THAT important when we compare the performance of Nanoha--who's schoolwork is more practicing the operations than actually doing real math--to the performance of Yuuno (doesn't need a device) to Mid-Childan soldiers like Teana and Subaru--who enlisted at 12, having finished their compulsory schooling and are probably done formally learning math. I mean they might still get necessary applied-skills stuff but, well, Nanoha didn't need any of that.

I guess my feeling is, maybe it's arrogant of me, but what with the engineering degree and all, I probably have more experience with formal math education than the production staff, and my feeling is, they don't realize solving math problems in your head while trying to lazor someone, while trying to avoid getting lazored, while flying around... they didn't realize how stupid hard that sounds.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#34
Nanoha's best course was math, but who knows how good she was. But we know she didn't need a device to use magic. At least not by the second season, which was only a couple months after she was introduced to the whole system.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#35
Maybe Earth humans are, from the TSAB's PoV, incredibly bad at math, with a few exceptions such as Nanoha and Gauss. From an Earth perspective, the other civilizations have a bloody insane percentage of what we would consider phenomenally brilliant mathematical prodigies and geniuses.

The out-of-story answer, OTOH, may well be that the production staff has no idea how bloody hard it is to do high-level math, that fast, under that much stress, with that many distractions, in your head (depending on the math, it may be impossible, because nerve impulses don't move that fast).

Could anyone reading this calculate pi in their head, without even pencil and paper?

Mind you, it may just be that the math isn't as high-level or complex as we're thinking.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#36
It should be pointed out one does *not* need much math to do majic or to have the potential at any case... were that the case the Knights would not have been attacking animals for magic to fill the book of darkness.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#37
That just suggests that there are inborn ways around the issue. If magic was needed to make even a spark then it's unlikely people would have realized it existed. The current system was most likely a refinement of the old systems which were created to emulate naturally occurring magic abilities.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#38
Well, I do recall something about Midchilda-type (and possibly Belkan as well) magic spells being more like programs that are energized power from the caster's Linker Core. Calculation is needed for things like trajectory and targeting, mostly.

They do make mention that there are dozens upon dozens of forms of magic encountered by the TSAB that are not similar to the Midchilda style. Not sure what all that means, but there you have it. Perhaps magic usable instinctively by feral creatures, which does not require advanced calculations, is among those types.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#39
This is a question a bit more related to Trinagle Hearts 3 than the Nanoha franchise but still tied to a resolution i'm trying to reach...

The members of the Takamachi family are normal humans? Or is there something unnatural/special about them? According to info in "Triangle Hearts 3" Kyouya Takamachi is a very skilled master swordsman who faced supernatural threats and possibly also killed supernatural beings. So, does Kyouya have a special gift that separates from normal human species or is he just a very skilled/strong willed normal human?
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
#40
Akiyoshi said:
This is a question a bit more related to Trinagle Hearts 3 than the Nanoha franchise but still tied to a resolution i'm trying to reach...

The members of the Takamachi family are normal humans? Or is there something unnatural/special about them? According to info in "Triangle Hearts 3" Kyouya Takamachi is a very skilled master swordsman who faced supernatural threats and possibly also killed supernatural beings. So, does Kyouya have a special gift that separates from normal human species or is he just a very skilled/strong willed normal human?
And according to WHAT twisted standards someone who enganges supernatural threats and beats them classifies as NORMAL?

Akiyoshi! LOOK! AT! THE! DAMN! DICTIONARY!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal

"a.
approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment. "
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#41
Normal humans beat supernatural beings all the time in fiction (i can talk about real life because we don't have any solid evidence of supernatual beings/phenomena). Just becuase they have the correct skills and clues to deal with the problem. It's the reason why the term "Badass Normal" exist: Someone who kicks almost or as much ass as "special" people despite not having anything special about themselves.

So, are the Takamachis special people or just a family of Badass Normal people?
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
#42
Akiyoshi said:
So, are the Takamachis special people or just a family of Badass Normal people?
Do you even know the definition of a Badass Normal?

"In a World with supernatural dealings or superpowers, this character is the one who is able to keep being useful through intellect, martial arts abilities, general ruthlessness, or just being Crazy-Prepared. "

Badass Normal is a person who has no super/magical/technological powers. He goes by pure intelligence and skills. And that by no means that they are NORMAL humans. Normal human is your average joe who goes to work all week long, mostly doesn't exercise and the most fight he can handle is a little bar brawl with friends.

In fact, Badass Normal is even MORE abnormal than your average Super. I mean others have superpowers to do their work for them, but Badass Normal only got skills going for him. Skills that somehow allow him to counter the super powers. That's definitely NOT normal.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#43
So, a Badass Normal is not normal ...interesting logic xDU
 

lhklan

Well-Known Member
#44
@Andarion
... Okay, for once, I'm inclined to agree with Aki on your view of Badass Normal.

Seriously, the marks of a Badass Normal is the fact that he's just another average guy, somebody that anyone can theoretically become with the right settings. Take away the conflict and he's just another average joe, with a slight higher stat in some category than usual.

Beside, you're only using the Psychological description. There's still the Biological description to take into account.
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
#45
lhklan said:
@Andarion
... Okay, for once, I'm inclined to agree with Aki on your view of Badass Normal.

Seriously, the marks of a Badass Normal is the fact that he's just another average guy, somebody that anyone can theoretically become with the right settings. Take away the conflict and he's just another average joe, with a slight higher stat in some category than usual.
That actually depends on the particular Badass Normal but you are right. Though it doesn't apply to the Takamachis, they are descended from a family of hereditary warriors. They have the natural advantage.
 

lhklan

Well-Known Member
#46
Andarion said:
lhklan said:
@Andarion
... Okay, for once, I'm inclined to agree with Aki on your view of Badass Normal.

Seriously, the marks of a Badass Normal is the fact that he's just another average guy, somebody that anyone can theoretically become with the right settings. Take away the conflict and he's just another average joe, with a slight higher stat in some category than usual.
That actually depends on the particular Badass Normal but you are right. Though it doesn't apply to the Takamachis, they are descended from a family of hereditary warriors. They have the natural advantage.
Nope. Even if it is hereditary, they still relies on skills and techniques and not things like super serum. THey're still human, just insanly skilled along with a rich history. Now if one of their ancestor were demons or vampires, OTOH...
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
#47
lhklan said:
Nope. Even if it is hereditary, they still relies on skills and techniques and not things like super serum. THey're still human, just insanly skilled along with a rich history. Now if one of their ancestor were demons or vampires, OTOH...
The discussion here is whether Nanoha is normal/average or not. This means "Is she a normal/average human being without any exceptional strengths".
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#48
Not really, that's the conclussion i'll reach in the other thread, my specific question here was about the Takamachi line, this includes Nanoha as well obviously but for now not in the sense of being a mage but as a member of the Takamachis.
 

bhl88

Well-Known Member
#49
Badass normal: Also must not have a lineage of legendary people (ex: Vivio: clone of Sankt Kaiser).
 

lhklan

Well-Known Member
#50
bhl88 said:
Badass normal: Also must not have a lineage of legendary people (ex: Vivio: clone of Sankt Kaiser).
Eh, the hereditary thing is abit of a hit-and-miss for me.
 
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