Nanoha StrikerS / Third Season anime

[Sunder the Gold]

YuunoxSubaru? I thought rainbows were straighter than Subaru?

Yuuno has the ability to make rainbows/girls straight... Or he's not manly enough to be considered a guy.

I choose to interpret it either way. In this case, Subaru has little to no sense of personal boundaries and genuinely thinks skinship is a totally platonic way to get to know her friends better, but she's still straight.

One or two fan-authors/artists presume that Subaru is somewhat insecure about her cyborg body and therefore intensely curious about the bodies of normal humans and other cyborgs; her very physical acts of affection double as efforts to explore and compare.

As for her sexuality, the only known significant male figure in her life is her FATHER. Her savior and rolemodel was a woman, and her best friend was a girl, and both of them were physically attractive. Put some handsome men in her life who are just as impressive or interesting to her as those two, and we could see how she reacts to men.

It would make for a very interesting story experiment.

Which would smack of bullshit to a wide selection of the fanbase. But who cares about their rejection?

And Erio is an ex-convict with no real character.

He was kidnapped, not arrested. Fate saved him from an illegal research group who blackmailed his parents into staying quiet. If the TSAB restrained him at all, it was because he was out of control with fear and anger, which Fate helped him begin overcoming.

But more on topic, he's way too young, much too cute with Caro, and not actually impressive compared to Subaru in the way that Nanoha is. Erio's basic abilities are too similar to Subaru's own, whereas Teana is interesting by having capabilities wildly different from Subaru's own -- fighting smarter rather than stronger and using illusion magic, for example.

Add in the fact that Genya has the father role and she's really lacking in male contact.

There were lots of guys in her cadet groups. But presumably, they were all weaklings compared to her, let alone her rolemodel. Also presumably, none of them stood out like Teana.

Heck, being mutual standouts is WHY they were teamed up.

Subaru also had male instructors, but while they would have had more experience, they probably also lacked the sheer power to impress.

You can respect someone who makes you fight for a win. You stand in AWE of someone who can casually steamroll you.

Seeing how she reacts when she has to interact with the other males of the cast woud be intriguing. Particularly when you consider those males are Yuuno, Chrono, and Zafira.

Zafira should have had more involvement, at least with Subaru's hand-to-hand skills.

Yuuno should have been involved period, teaching defensive spells and how to best use them, among many other contributions to Riot Force 6.

Chrono would never have feasibly been involved in the training, even if he was still an enforcer/investigator rather than a fleet admiral. If he was a part of Riot Force 6 at all, he would have been helping Fate with the investigation. Which Arf should have also been doing.

(In fact, it would have been neat if at some point in the investigation, Teana was tapped to come along because of her intelligence and illusion magic. This would help explain why Fate decided to invite her into the enforcers, and why Teana would accept when her original goal was to joint the Air Force.)

I don't count Vice or Verrossa as viable since they have even less character than Erio.

Are we talking about the same Vice? I agree that Verossa is toilet paper, but Vice is a decently fleshed out character, and a great example of the "average joe mage".

 

[Hoki]

It would make for a very interesting story experiment. Also consider the only other known males would be Erio and Jail. Jail is... Jail. And Erio is an ex-convict (I think he was such at some point) with no real character. Add in the fact that Genya has the father role and she's really lacking in male contact.

A minor correction, if you don't mind. First, Erio isn't an ex-convict, nor a criminal of any sort. He is a clone, like Fate. And his interactions with Subaru would been more like a older sister/younger brother as he was just 10 during StrikerS

Seeing how she reacts when she has to interact with the other males of the cast woud be intriguing. Particularly when you consider those males are Yuuno, Chrono, and Zafira. I don't count Vice or Verrossa as viable since they have even less character than Erio.

I'm guessing that Subaru doesn't even know Zafira can talk, so she'll probably get very surprised at Zafira's human form which he rarely uses (not counting Vivid). Interactions with Chrono would be hard, as he's an Admiral and she's on the rescue squad. Again, Yuuno wins by simply being the easily accessible guy among all of them, so a story based on their interactions would be the most probable.

Speaking of which, there is a fanfic featuring YuunoxSubaru.

 

[Old Iron]

A minor correction, if you don't mind. First, Erio isn't an ex-convict, nor a criminal of any sort. He is a clone, like Fate. And his interactions with Subaru would been more like a older sister/younger brother as he was just 10 during StrikerS

I've been corrected on this since I made the post. It's been a while since I've interacted with him, so I think I made an incorrect leap of logic.

I'm guessing that Subaru doesn't even know Zafira can talk, so she'll probably get very surprised at Zafira's human form which he rarely uses (not counting Vivid). Interactions with Chrono would be hard, as he's an Admiral and she's on the rescue squad. Again, Yuuno wins by simply being the easily accessible guy among all of them, so a story based on their interactions would be the most probable.

Speaking of which, there is a fanfic featuring YuunoxSubaru.

Good points there. And where is this fic?

Which would smack of bullshit to a wide selection of the fanbase. But who cares about their rejection?

Not I. XD

But more on topic, he's way too young, much too cute with Caro, and not actually impressive compared to Subaru in the way that Nanoha is. Erio's basic abilities are too similar to Subaru's own, whereas Teana is interesting by having capabilities wildly different from Subaru's own -- fighting smarter rather than stronger and using illusion magic, for example.

Good points. He really doesn't have anything that makes him stand out for her. He's just kind of the little brother figure if anything.

Zafira should have had more involvement, at least with Subaru's hand-to-hand skills.

Unfortunately as Hoki pointed out, there's the fact Subaru doesn't even seem to know Zaffy has a human form at this point.

Yuuno should have been involved period, teaching defensive spells and how to best use them, among many other contributions to Riot Force 6.

And by the time of StrikerS, one could reasonably have him having obtained enough free time to at least help out with remedial lessons if nothing more. Which could easily set things up for private tutoring or Nanoha pulling strings to get her instructor involved.

Chrono would never have feasibly been involved in the training, even if he was still an enforcer/investigator rather than a fleet admiral. If he was a part of Riot Force 6 at all, he would have been helping Fate with the investigation. Which Arf should have also been doing.

(In fact, it would have been neat if at some point in the investigation, Teana was tapped to come along because of her intelligence and illusion magic. This would help explain why Fate decided to invite her into the enforcers, and why Teana would accept when her original goal was to joint the Air Force.)

Chrono does have that whole admiral thing to deal with.

But him pulling on what Teana could offer as an enforcer is definitely a good move I can see.

Are we talking about the same Vice? I agree that Verossa is toilet paper, but Vice is a decently fleshed out character, and a great example of the "average joe mage".

It's been a while and I remember next to nothing about the guy, really. He either didn't have enough character to stand out to me, or his type of character didn't stand out to me.

 

[Hoki]

A minor correction, if you don't mind. First, Erio isn't an ex-convict, nor a criminal of any sort. He is a clone, like Fate. And his interactions with Subaru would been more like a older sister/younger brother as he was just 10 during StrikerS

I've been corrected on this since I made the post. It's been a while since I've interacted with him, so I think I made an incorrect leap of logic.

I'm guessing that Subaru doesn't even know Zafira can talk, so she'll probably get very surprised at Zafira's human form which he rarely uses (not counting Vivid). Interactions with Chrono would be hard, as he's an Admiral and she's on the rescue squad. Again, Yuuno wins by simply being the easily accessible guy among all of them, so a story based on their interactions would be the most probable.

Speaking of which, there is a fanfic featuring YuunoxSubaru.

Good points there. And where is this fic?

here it is. only two chapters though.

(In fact, it would have been neat if at some point in the investigation, Teana was tapped to come along because of her intelligence and illusion magic. This would help explain why Fate decided to invite her into the enforcers, and why Teana would accept when her original goal was to joint the Air Force.)

Well Teana's ULTIMATE goal is to become an Enforcer, something that her late brother (due to dying in the line of duty) hoped to be.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

My idea is revisionist history.

If I say that Zafira SHOULD have been involved, I mean that I want to talk as if he WAS. In which case, he would not have inexplicably spent most of his time as a voiceless, unimportant pet.

Zafira should either have been one of the trainers, or the head of Riot Force 6's security. (There's at least one fic that makes Zafira head of security for a patrol ship to which Hayate is assigned.) It's really the perfect role for him, to serve as Hayate's chief security officer.

The only exception might be when Fate is the chief security officer, in which case Zafira would be working with her and Arf.


I can't really protest Chrono's distant position in StrikerS. As at least one author has surmised, Chrono REALLY doesn't want to risk dying on his kids like his father did, so he moved into positions that removed him from personal danger while still working to keep peace in the world.

It's been a while and I remember next to nothing about [Vice], really. He either didn't have enough character to stand out to me, or his type of character didn't stand out to me.

Fair enough. Much as I think he has a place within the Lyrical Nanoha franchise, I don't think he had any place in StrikerS.

The Forwards were a step down from the Aces, but Vice is a step down from the Forwards, and he's not one of the principle characters. Further, he was not essential for any of his roles, which could have been fufilled by Yuuno.

Yuuno could have had history with Signum. Yuuno could have transported everyone to hot spots. Yuuno could have identified with Teana. Teana could have had her own motorcycle, or that might have been Yuuno again. (Fate gets a sports car, so why not?)

here it is. only two chapters though.

But a GOOD two chapters.

However, be aware that Arf is not Yuuno's wife. That's a grammatical error in the first chapter; a missing "and".

Of course, Arf would have made MORE sense than Nove. (Smacks of cradle robbing, and they have absolutely no connection at all.)

 

[Hoki]

here it is. only two chapters though.

But a GOOD two chapters.

However, be aware that Arf is not Yuuno's wife. That's a grammatical error in the first chapter; a missing "and".

Of course, Arf would have made MORE sense than Nove. (Smacks of cradle robbing, and they have absolutely no connection at all.)

Unless Yuuno is into female wolves, that is...

It would've made more sense if it was Ginga who Yuuno married, as she was Subaru's first combat instructor, and as a ground forces investigator, surely would've have made a lot of trips to the IL and interacted with Yuuno.

She's also hotter than her sisters, but that's just me talking.

 

[ragnarok1337]

When I saw the Yuuno and Subaru character tags, then Yuuno mentioned that he was married, I was hoping it was Subaru he was married to. But Nove? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Unless Yuuno is into female wolves, that is...

It wouldn't have been the first fanfic to decide that Arf is human enough in human form. There's been at least one other fanfic in which they were a couple.

While it's definitely "pairing the spares" and smacks too much of "shipping the 'familiars'", it's at least true that the two of them have a history and get along well.

Nove doesn't just LOOK younger than Yuuno, she's not even as old as she looks. It's just creepy, especially since I can't imagine how they even MET, let alone hit it off.

It would've made more sense if it was Ginga who Yuuno married, as she was Subaru's first combat instructor, and as a ground forces investigator, surely would've have made a lot of trips to the IL and interacted with Yuuno.

Yuuno's field is the past, and Ginga's job doesn't normally involve Lost Logia. The heroes most likely to need Yuuno and the Library are Chrono, Fate, Signum and Vita. Now also Teana.

Nanoha's job involves training people, Hayate's job (presumably) involved internal inspections (before forming Riot Force 6), and Ginga's a local planet-side police officer. They're all busy dealing with modern people who are dealing with modern issues with other modern people.

It's the navy and armed forces, working on the fringes, who would most often come across forgotten cultures and other remnants of the past.

When Zest was running the investigation on Jail Scaglietti, Yuuno probably wasn't involved at all, since the Combat Cyborg thing is actually relatively NEW. It's only when Jail started targeting the Relics and later unearthed the Cradle that anyone needed Yuuno's input.

 

[Hoki]

So, moving on I have this:

If the Cyborgs were placed in standard TSAB roles, I think they would be arranged like this:

Center Guards: Dieci and Otto, both specialize in bombardment, but need to be protected as they lack mobility. Otto fits the position more as she is also capable of strategic planning, while Dieci would need to have a command unit, like Quattro.

Front Attackers: Nove and Tre, Both are brawlers/melee type fighters. Tre being the superior one as she's faster, and could also fill the role of a guard.

Wing Guards: Cinque and Wendi for mobile, mid and long range fighting. Deed and Sette for mobile melee combat and in Sette's case mid range fighting courtesy of Boomerang Blades.

Full back: Quattro, as she has no combat capability, but has a very useful illusion skill, she's also a very skilled (if not smug) strategist.

Uno, Due, and Sein are excluded for the following reasons

* In Uno's case, her role is strictly mission control, and as such cannot be regulated in combat.
* Due and Sein have abilities more befitting of assassination and/or sabotage. In Due's case, her Liar's mask makes her the perfect spy. Sein's Deep Diver on the other hand, fits more of retrieval, and she's been called to do things like that.

Your thoughts?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Characters like Dieci and Hayate show that the Center position is actually the odd one out.

Sure, characters like Teana and Nanoha can work as Centers, but only because they're more than shooters. They both have the ability to personally defend themselves in close-range combat. Nanoha is just as mobile as her peers, and Teana can either hitch a ride with Subaru or on Friedliche if necessary.

The Center CAN'T be focused on long-range support the way that the Front Attacker is on melee or the Full Back is on support. The Wing Guard is already a miscellaneous position, being basically "Front Attacker, but faster" or "Center, but more mobile" or some combination.

Dieci isn't nearly mobile enough to hold a center position, and she's a sniper rather than an all-ranges shooter. Hayate is the squishiest and least defended of her peers, and while she can cast simple bombardments, her unique area-of-effect spells all require set-up periods. Both of them need to be safely behind all of their allies.


Attempting to codify these positions in Lyrical Nanoha is also really silly in that Our Heroes almost NEVER fight as a team. Generally, everyone splits off into duels. When they do work together, it's basically just "Supports provide support, attackers all take turns unloading on the enemy".

Even in that big team mock battle in vivid, where people were given explicit roles for teamwork, it was mostly just a series of duels between characters of the same position. Erio versus Fate, Nanoha versus Teana...

 

[Hoki]

Attempting to codify these positions in Lyrical Nanoha is also really silly in that Our Heroes almost NEVER fight as a team. Generally, everyone splits off into duels. When they do work together, it's basically just "Supports provide support, attackers all take turns unloading on the enemy".

Even in that big team mock battle in vivid, where people were given explicit roles for teamwork, it was mostly just a series of duels between characters of the same position. Erio versus Fate, Nanoha versus Teana...

I did that because there has to be a reason why Jail made the cyborgs with skills that can be regulated in a TSAB setup. After all, his benefactors, before he turned on them, were the TSAB ground forces council. So logically, they would have ordered him to make something that goes with their system.

Also because I was bored.

 

[Nanya]

Wouldn't Sein be the ultimate Wing Guard since she could cover the flanks easily and get allies out of the way or stick enemies into the ground easily?

Cinque would work better as a center guard, being able to direct the team while Dieci was long range fire support.

Wendi could cover Wing Guard and Full Back, depending on the situation.

Sette could also cover Front Guard if needed.

Deed would work better as a Wing Guard, IMO.

Otto works both Center and Full Back.

Nove and Tre are both Front Guards

Quattro would be rear guard, Uno's mission control and Due took lessons from Spy and is in your base, killing your team.

 

[Kaijo]

I didn't saying cloning was bad.

I said that conducting research and experimentation on children is bad.

Experimenting with the cloning process inherently means trying something different without knowing what the result will be. If you know what the result will be, it's not experimentation.

This is gambling with a baby's life.

If that is what is being done. But science isn't quite like that. You do research and smaller tests, until you understand the basic systems enough. Then you do the large tests to confirm your theory. At any point in research that is ultimately destined for human use, humans need to be a part of the testing process. If science is done well, that risk is minimized, because when you get to that point, you should already know what will happen; you are merely looking for confirmation.

And to put it simply, having sex and getting a woman pregnant is gambling with a baby's life (note, I am still playing devil's advocate here). The only difference, is that is somehow socially acceptable.

Project F wasn't just any old cloning project. It wasn't simply introducing spermoza to eggs. It was about reliably producing mages; controlling the random genetic mix-up to produce a desired result.

And isn't that a good thing? Looking back now, would you have preferred to be born with or without magic powers? What if a lot of people around you were mages, or people with power, and you weren't because your parents declined to get you modified when you were just a few cells?

The TSAB declared it illegal. That sort of suggests that the technology wasn't safe enough yet.

I tend to question authority by nature, so I'm less inclined to say the technology wasn't safe. It did produce viable children in the form of Fate, Erio, Subaru and Ginga. Granted, though, we haven't seen the failures or what kind of testing went on before them.

Note that today, with artificial insemination, we fertilize dozens of eggs and try to implant them in a woman seeking to have a baby. Not all will work, and after a successful implantation, the rest are destroyed. If you take the Christian viewpoint, then all those fertilized eggs that were destroyed, were deaths of human lives. At what point does a bunch of cells become a human? That is a personal choice. So what if scientists were experimenting around with cells that were later destroyed? Would that be immoral?

Project Fate wasn't created for good reasons, and it's hard to see what good use it could be put towards. [At least as intended. See below.]

It's a technique that imprints memories belonging to one person onto a completely different person. Fate Testarossa was not Alicia, no matter how much she remembered her life.

Presea denied Fate her own childhood by accelerating her growth and giving her someone else's memories. When would that ever be preferable to letting a child grow up normally and letting her make her own memories?

And yet, Fate did grow up to be her own person. The memories didn't make the person. We are all born with genetic traits, that pre-dispose us to have various personality quirks. With a natural birth, that grab bag is random. What is wrong with selecting and deselecting various traits? Don't you want your children to be the best they can be? It's kinda important for us to start asking these questions, because our science is rapidly approaching that part. But in the TSAB case, is speed-learning any different than cybernetic arms and legs? Both are advantages.

Outside of that, cloning treats babies as tools. It's dehumanizing, inhumane, and cruel.

Babies should never be produced as Fate, Erio and Vivio were produced. Neither Ginga or Subaru.

All cases that turned out fine in the end. I kid, but I think I see where your issue lies... it's not necessarily in how the children are produced, but in how they are cared for after they are born. So it sounds like you would be okay with a fetus receiving genetic modification to accept cybernetic parts, if that is what the parents wanted and were going to lovingly care for it after it was born.

So, the main problem with Erio, was that the parents didn't fight tooth and nail to keep their cloned son, giving him up immediately when faced with possible punishment for cloning. So, on the flip side, if cloning were legal, then, there would be no threat that would keep them from their son. The blackmail threat wouldn't have worked.

They didn't have a new son. They created a new son and tried to force him to be the old one, giving him the same name, forcing him to quick-grow to the same age, and forcing the same memories on him.

They tried to force the second son to be someone he wasn't. It was wrong when Presea did that to Fate, and it's not okay now.

Did they really force him to be the old one? We don't actually know. Sure, they named him Erio and didn't tell him he was a clone... but we know from experience that Fate wasn't Alicia. We don't know how long they had clone-Erio. Perhaps they just gambled for a son that was as close as possible, and would have happily raised him no matter how he turned out from then. Kids do change quite a bit as they age, after all.

Also, if we're gonna discuss cloning, then we need to confront the other elephant in the room: Zest. A clone that was created as adult, and one that suffered physical breakdowns; though why he did, and Fate and Erio haven't, is probably a difference in cloning technique. His memories and personality seemed to mirror the original more closely, suggesting that it is possible to create near-perfect duplicates. Whether you can do that (have a clone with perfect memory and personality transfer) and still have a viable clone that lasts, is another question.

I did partially address this in Future Tense, when I ultimately hinted that Nanoha was a clone like Zest: a more perfect duplicate, but shortened life span. Obviously, creating someone, child or adult, that has such a shortened life span is probably morally wrong... but in Future Tense, it saved the day. I deliberately constructed a scenario where it was a good thing. The argument you and I are having, is interestingly enough, one I had with myself, when I was setting up the difference in opinion Yuuno and Fate had toward it. Fate thought it was wrong, but Yuuno felt it was right. Who was right? I won't say. ^_^

 

[Hoki]

Wouldn't Sein be the ultimate Wing Guard since she could cover the flanks easily and get allies out of the way or stick enemies into the ground easily?

For one thing, Sein can't fly (Erio can't either, but he has Strada or Fried), and isn't fast enough to dodge fast attacks. She can set up enemies for her allies, but in single combat, she's practically helpless. This is most evident when she tripped Schach to prevent her from helping Fate, which resulted in the Saint Church nun making a hole on the floor to confront Sein. What does Sein do when faced with an enemy? Use her Deep Diver to escape, which would've worked, if not for Schach having a similar kind of magic.

Cinque would work better as a center guard, being able to direct the team while Dieci was long range fire support.

Good point.

Wendi could cover Wing Guard and Full Back, depending on the situation.
Otto works both Center and Full Back.

These two being Full Backs are a bit debatable. From what I have observed, Full Backs are mages with some sort of Support spell: either barriers, binds, more effective healing spells, transfer/teleportation spells, boost spells, or any combination of the aforementioned spells, as their specialty or expertise. Caro is specifically regulated as a Full Back because most of her spells are support spells, with Fried and Voltaire being her main offensive weapons. The problem is that other than Due, Quattro and Sein, the other field Combat Cyborgs do not have any sort of support skill, but instead only have offense skills. In fact, we never really see Quattro fighting anybody.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

If that is what is being done. But science isn't quite like that. You do research and smaller tests, until you understand the basic systems enough. Then you do the large tests to confirm your theory. At any point in research that is ultimately destined for human use, humans need to be a part of the testing process. If science is done well, that risk is minimized, because when you get to that point, you should already know what will happen; you are merely looking for confirmation.

And you think Jail, the criminal mad-man conducting illegal research while disembodied brains constantly pushed him for results, was going to perform ETHICAL and SAFE experimentation?

And to put it simply, having sex and getting a woman pregnant is gambling with a baby's life (note, I am still playing devil's advocate here). The only difference, is that is somehow socially acceptable.

It's the most familiar and well-practiced method of procreation, with centuries of understanding and medicine behind it. Not to mention that it's the method which lends itself most naturally to putting a child within a family which will take care of it.

And isn't that a good thing?

It is when the process is safe. Also when the cost of performing the process doesn't place burdens on the child's future freedom.

I tend to question authority by nature

I'm not an anarchist. I question authority that behaves questionably.

I also use the series as a context. I'm more inclined to trust authority until proven guilty in a series like Lyrical Nanoha than I am a series like Deadman Wonderland.

If you take the Christian viewpoint, then all those fertilized eggs that were destroyed, were deaths of human lives.

They were not deliberately destroyed. They were given a chance to live. In death, they rejoin God and await the world to come.

The Biblical God ordered the destruction of entire cities, including every single child. Those children, he took back into his arms.

Sure, they died horribly. Christian adults die horribly too, before they get to rejoin God. The planet Earth is a shithole like that.

Death is an eyeblink in the face of Forever After, is my main point. This life is worthwhile, and death's an abomination, but this life is not the whole story, and death is not its ending.

At what point does a bunch of cells become a human? That is a personal choice.

I'd say it's an objective truth about which people make personal decisions.

So what if scientists were experimenting around with cells that were later destroyed? Would that be immoral?

Depends on the likelihood of destruction.

And yet, Fate did grow up to be her own person.

So you think that parents should give all of their children the memories of the firstborn, and accelerate them to the same age?

I think I see where your issue lies... it's not necessarily in how the children are produced, but in how they are cared for after they are born. So it sounds like you would be okay with a fetus receiving genetic modification to accept cybernetic parts, if that is what the parents wanted and were going to lovingly care for it after it was born.

Mostly correct. Remember also the risks in using expensive procedures which can come back to rob the child of future freedom through family debt and social expectations.

So, the main problem with Erio, was that the parents didn't fight tooth and nail to keep their cloned son, giving him up immediately when faced with possible punishment for cloning.

FUCK YES.

So, on the flip side, if cloning were legal, then, there would be no threat that would keep them from their son. The blackmail threat wouldn't have worked.

Legal cloning probably wouldn't allow for Dead Goldfish Replacement. But it WOULD assume that the process was safe enough that parents could blow all the money they wanted on designer children.

Legal cloning, however, would still involve legal CONTROLS on cloning. Which is as much for the consumer's protection as the child's. Erio's parents took a huge risk that the people they paid would actually deliver on their promise, rather than grab the money and run.

Also, if we're gonna discuss cloning, then we need to confront the other elephant in the room: Zest.

Don't talk to me about Zest. Not a damn thing about Zest-the-zombie makes sense.

Obviously, creating someone, child or adult, that has such a shortened life span is probably morally wrong... but in Future Tense, it saved the day. I deliberately constructed a scenario where it was a good thing.

It was a bad thing from which a good thing happened, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

It's just a measure of how the universe was made good, such that it can't get so bad that nothing good can't be made of it.

In simpler terms: Goodness is more real than badness.

 

[Kaijo]

Gonna keep this short, because I think we've neared the end, here.

And you think Jail, the criminal mad-man conducting illegal research while disembodied brains constantly pushed him for results, was going to perform ETHICAL and SAFE experimentation?

Not at all. but the question was whether experimentation and cloning was bad in and of itself, rather than who was performing. And didn't you like Jail, since he took care of the children he created and cared for them in a certain fashion?

So you think that parents should give all of their children the memories of the firstborn, and accelerate them to the same age?

If that's what the parents want to do, yes. I'd usually for not interfering in the choices a family makes, unless there is a larger harm to outsiders or society at large.

Legal cloning, however, would still involve legal CONTROLS on cloning. Which is as much for the consumer's protection as the child's. Erio's parents took a huge risk that the people they paid would actually deliver on their promise, rather than grab the money and run.

So, we've confirmed that the main issue is not that cloning or experimentation is wrong, so long as it is carried out ethically, which was the main devil's advocate position I was taking. Just as long as the children are properly cared for afterwards. And it would be a good thing to making cloning legal with proper regulation, so we don't have back alley cloning that creates dangerous black markets.

With this, I think we've pretty much come to the end of this little debate. You've stated your positions well, which allowed to explore exactly where our beliefs lay, so you have my thanks.

Just one more thing:

It was a bad thing from which a good thing happened, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

It's just a measure of how the universe was made good, such that it can't get so bad that nothing good can't be made of it.

In simpler terms: Goodness is more real than badness.

If you really look back at our history, you'll find we gained many good things from bad things. Perhaps the closest and most well known, is the fact that our space program is thanks to Nazis (we actually put them in charge). And we've gotten a ton of stuff from our space program, such as the computer you are typing on right now. So, is your computer a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Not at all. but the question was whether experimentation and cloning was bad in and of itself, rather than who was performing.

The character of the scientist naturally limits the kind of experiments. A scientist who respects the sanctity of other peoples' lives will not risk them callously merely for the sake of their scientific passion.

The scientist might not respect the letter of the law that forbids his research, but he'll still respect the spirit of the law: Don't Be A Dick.

However, when one moral/ethical scientist is able to break the law, ten other unscrupulous scientists are able to do the same.

When the law allows the one moral/ethical scientist to do as he pleases, those ten other scientists are still pushing past what the law allows.

Laws don't prevent crime; engendering an attitude of respect for other people prevents crime. Laws just provide an excuse for police to arrest people who are being dicks.

And didn't you like Jail, since he took care of the children he created and cared for them in a certain fashion?

His "certain fashion" was still not acceptable. Just because he wasn't the worst parent ever doesn't mean he was a good one. And it doesn't change the fact that he probably used unsafe techniques to create the Numbers.

Or that he left someone like Quattro in charge of developing the last daughters.

Or that he was going to blow up Uno, Tre and Sette for a matter of personal pride.

Even just his treatment of Lutecia and Vivio would make him a bad influence on his children.

And it would be a good thing to making cloning legal with proper regulation, so we don't have back alley cloning that creates dangerous black markets.

You'd still have back-alley cloning. But the appeal would be far narrower, as the illegal provides find themselves catering to a much more specific niche.

Even if parents can legally have new kids cloned, people wouldn't be legally allowed to buy a crop of kids to raise as child-soldiers or lab rats.

(Oh, god. Everyone trying to have the Sankt Kaiser or other famous figures for children. Does the government try to pass a patent or copyright on DNA?)

If you really look back at our history, you'll find we gained many good things from bad things.

But we also could have gained good things from good things. Or better things from good things.

Bad things can't give rise to good things. It's just that nothing can get so bad that it can't be redeemed.

 

[Andarion]

If you really look back at our history, you'll find we gained many good things from bad things. Perhaps the closest and most well known, is the fact that our space program is thanks to Nazis (we actually put them in charge). And we've gotten a ton of stuff from our space program, such as the computer you are typing on right now. So, is your computer a good thing or a bad thing?

You should however differentiate between Nazis and Scientists. While Von Braun and others did supply tech and weaponry to the Nazis they weren't responsible for their atrocities, they merely created Tools of War. You could say the same for the scientists and engineers who created weapons for the Soviets or your own scientists who built Nuclear Bombs or created Agent Orange. If you are bringing up the Rocket scientists though then you should also read about Unit 731

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Regarding Jail himself he is an extremely morally ambiguous person. Yes he didn't mistreat his daughters and seemed to care for them. On the other hand he impregnated his daughters with his clones, was more than willing to sacrifice their lives, put mind-control on some people who weren't directly related to him like Lutecia and was more than willing to kill thousands of people to achieve his goals. Then again it's not exactly His fault, His research-driven personality is the result of the stuff implanted into him...

 

[Sunder the Gold]

So, once the Yagami Family (including Hayate and Reinforce) surrenders, gets arrested, and are incarcerated, who do they have on their side? And what can those allies do to help?

Nanoha - Has earned the goodwill of the Hallahouns, but she doesn't even have a year of experience with the magical world, isn't a member of the TSAB; they may respect her potential and competence as an aerial combat mage, but not necessarily her judge of character and situation. Then again, Nanoha is the major reason why Lindy and Fate are now in a position where adoption is on the table.

Fate - Much more familiar with the magical world, but with a very incomplete and biased education. Case in point, she'd probably never heard of the Wolkenritter or Book of Darkness before, and was even ignorant of Belkan Devices and the Cartridge System. The Hallahouns are willing to make her part of the family, but will they believe her perspective on the Wolkenritter?

Yuuno - He's interacted with the Wolkenritter even less, and Hayate not at all. Further, he ought to be one of the most informed about the Wolkenritter's infamous history and myths even before getting access to the Library. However, he trusts Nanoha and Fate's judgment, and he has the Library's account of the true nature of the Tome of the Night Sky. Yuuno can offer historical support for Reinforce's testimony, and add his voice to any others who lobby for sparing Reinforce and the Wolkenritter as living historical treasures.

Dr. Ishida - Can be called upon to serve as a character witness for Hayate, though doing so might break the masquerade unless interviewed covertly. She can also serve as a weak character witness for the Wolkenritter.

Gil Graham - Whether or not he believes the Wolkenritter deserve clemency, he'll testify for Hayate's character. His word will still have some weight left to it, and he might still have some last favors to call in.


Who do they need to convince?

Hayate, Nanoha, Fate and Yuuno might be able to convince Graham (though not his familiars) that the Wolkenritter deserve clemency.

Nanoha, Fate and Yuuno, with help from Graham, might be able to convince the Hallahouns. Hayate's word can also count, after Graham vouches for her and Chrono or Lindy interviews Hayate and Ishida.

With Lindy on their side, the Yagami's allies now have sufficient connections and backing to gain the attention and support of Admiral Letti.


Assuming the presence of the Saint Church as presented in StrikerS, at what point does Charim get involved? Does she approach the case, or does the case approach her?

 

[zeebee1]

There are no Hallahouns in Nanoha.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Regarding Jail himself he is an extremely morally ambiguous person. Yes he didn't mistreat his daughters and seemed to care for them. On the other hand he impregnated his daughters with his clones, was more than willing to sacrifice their lives, put mind-control on some people who weren't directly related to him like Lutecia and was more than willing to kill thousands of people to achieve his goals. Then again it's not exactly His fault, His research-driven personality is the result of the stuff implanted into him...

Jail is definitely the most frustrating part of StrikerS for me. I just don't think he's that ambiguous.

He simply wasn't EVIL enough to be a real proper villain. Everything that could be called "villainous" is pretty easy to explain as rational and reasonable from his perspective. I mean, he just wasn't cruel, and since the over-arching goal he had was "stop being a slave", I kinda started rooting for him. Like, I wanted him and his kids to escape to Space Tijuana and live happily ever after, the end.

So he wasn't evil, the writing staff clearly set up the Surprise Twist where the surface Bad Guy was really just a good person put in a sucky situation by the Real Bad Guy... again! So the person that we thought was the Bad Guy turned out to be the Season Heroine!

Season 1:
Bad Guy: Fate (and Dog)
Real Bad Guy: Precia

Season 2:
Bad Guy: Hayate (and Friends)
Real Bad Guy: Graham

Season 3:
Bad Guy: Jail Scagiletti (and Kids)
Read Bad Guy: The Brain Tank Gang

So about 90% of the way through the Season, I was like, "This is pretty good. I dig it, this is a nice variation on the recurring theme."

His evil was so lukewarm, things like resurrecting a battleship and using it to attack the enemy fortress, but telling his team to minimize civilian causalities; I remember him saying that line vividly because I was like, "There. That is the proof that he's not the Real Bad Guy."

So I was surprised and disappointed with the ending, because I felt like the ending of Season 3 betrayed the story arcs of the first two seasons. They threw his ass in solitary confinement in Orbiting Space Prison and I was like, "no, he deserves to escape to Space Tijuana!"

Yes...

Jail Scaglietti was the Season Heroine of StrikerS (in my Heart).

 

[ragnarok1337]

tl;dr, Jail Scaglietti was the Season Heroine of StrikerS (in my Heart).

...

I give up.

 

[Tsuki_CB]

Clearly Strikers wasn't dark enough.

 

[Nanya]

I agree with DG here. Jail was pretty fun. After all, we needed a hammy, over-the-top antagonist in the series.

Now if only the show had done more with him and the Numbers and used them over the Gadget Drones.

 

[Hoki]

I liked Jail as a villain, if only because he's such a fun villain to watch.

And he actually had the balls to tell everybody in the TSAB ground forces that he screwed them over. that's the sort of hamminess you see from M. Bison or Zim. Add to the fact that he DID screw them over was a testament of not only his audacity but also his effectiveness as a villain.

Even in his final battle, he was still smiling smugly. You can't really name many villains who go down with a smug smile on their faces (some of you probably can).

He ranks up there with Master "I can stand on Lasers because I'm better than U" Asia and "Pedoclown" Hisoka for me as fun villains to watch.