Nanoha StrikerS / Third Season anime

[Hoki]

Spells, and by extension magic, in the Nanoha-verse are formulated from complex math equations. Devices exist to help mages cast spells by basically doing the calculations for them. Anyway, since this is the case, theoretically, any spell can be learned by any mage, provided that the spell in question coincides with the kind of magic the mages use. A perfect example of this is Corona, who was able to mimic her team mates' techniques simply by observing them. Nove even admitted she did not teach Corona her Stun Knuckle, and was genuinely surprised when the kid demonstrated it to her.

More to the point, since spells are technically just equations, theoretically, they can be modified but still produce the same result, similar to how there are long and short methods of doing math. if this is the case, magic can be altered into an IS by tweaking with its equations.

 

[Andarion]

If they clone Nanoha's dna into a cyborg they may have a cyborg with a good pool of mana but nothing else given Nanoha developed all other skills trough training and life experience. Having the cyborg in question implanted with some of Nanoha's psychological traits or altered memories could help to unlock a similar potential as also giving it similar purpuse weaponry and training.

You are forgetting talent, Nanoha is not only about huge mana reserve but also talent for combat and especially for shooting magic. Her clone would be naturally talented in shooting magic.

More to the point, since spells are technically just equations, theoretically, they can be modified but still produce the same result, similar to how there are long and short methods of doing math. if this is the case, magic can be altered into an IS by tweaking with its equations.

Now the question is what are the exact limits of that. We pretty much know that some linker cores are more specialized than others, like Fate and Erio having lightning affinity. Can something like that be copied with just a magical equation or does it require the linker core to be compatible? And if there are limits, what exactly are they, are there some types of magic only specific people can learn because of genetic/linker core predispositions?

 

[Akiyoshi]

It also raises the question about how many successful subjects project Fate had. The two mostly known are Fate and Erio, the two genetically unrelated and both with lightning MCA. Is that just an incredible councidence or it was some after effect related to the cloning process?

 

[Andarion]

It also raises the question about how many successful subjects project Fate had. The two mostly known are Fate and Erio, the two genetically unrelated and both with lightning MCA. Is that just an incredible councidence or it was some after effect related to the cloning process?

Well we know two other products of Project Fate, Vivio (I think) and Zest. Both had their own types of magics. With Fate lightning affinity is natural since that's the one Precia had. As for Erio he Probably had it from the start but it was strengthened by the Project Fate and maybe the experiments those illegal scientists performed on him.

 

[keroko]

If they clone Nanoha's dna into a cyborg they may have a cyborg with a good pool of mana but nothing else given Nanoha developed all other skills trough training and life experience.

Nanoha's talents are multifold, actually. Mana, flying, shooting arts (Nanoha had a natural control even Teana struggled with for years) barriers, binds, scanning, and a very, very persistent biology capable of handling a crapton of stress before collapsing.

IS is also used to copy individual interesting techniques. A cyborg based on Nanoha might for example have an IS that's based on Starlight Breaker.

I'm not saying Cyborgs doesn't train (Subaru and Ginga would revolver cannon me to hell for saying that xDU) ...but certainly some shown instant expertise just after being activated like Nove, Wendi and Dieci. Unlike the first Nakajima sisters who had to work their asses for years to even reach similar proficiency as their original and mother.

They haven't even reached that, Subaru noted that she can't even use both knuckles all that well. Their mother was a monster.

Most likely the girls were taken before their tuning was complete. The concept of cyborg tuning is mentioned several times in the series and they were rescued as children, after all.

 

[Andarion]

IS is also used to copy individual interesting techniques. A cyborg based on Nanoha might for example have an IS that's based on Starlight Breaker.

Personally I see IS as inborn, genetic traits and talents so Starlight Breaker doesn't exactly count. It's just a spell that anyone can learn. What makes it special for Nanoha is her talent for shooting arts and huge mana capacity.

They haven't even reached that, Subaru noted that she can't even use both knuckles all that well. Their mother was a monster.

Most likely the girls were taken before their tuning was complete. The concept of cyborg tuning is mentioned several times in the series and they were rescued as children, after all.

Mhm it may also have something to do with Cyborgs being somehow inferior to the original. I mean even Nove who was based on Quint was only a Match for Subaru so I don't think tuning plays that great a role. Also Subaru and Ginga were receiving medical attention from TSAB's brightest their entire lives so they are probably well-tuned.

 

[keroko]

Personally I see IS as inborn, genetic traits and talents so Starlight Breaker doesn't exactly count. It's just a spell that anyone can learn. What makes it special for Nanoha is her talent for shooting arts and huge mana capacity.

A lot of IS are too specific to only be inborn traits though.

Mhm it may also have something to do with Cyborgs being somehow inferior to the original. I mean even Nove who was based on Quint was only a Match for Subaru so I don't think tuning plays that great a role. Also Subaru and Ginga were receiving medical attention from TSAB's brightest their entire lives so they are probably well-tuned.

Well yes, but tuned to live a healthy life, not tuned to be the most efficient weapons possible.

I think that with the numbers, what we were seeing was the difference between experience. Sure, the numbers are finely tuned weapons and have lots of data... but data and combat experience have, and will always be, two different things. Also, Subaru's IS is basically a giant "fuck your cyborgs." That helped too.

In Vivid for example, neither of the two acknowledge a vastly different gap between the two.

 

[Andarion]

A lot of IS are too specific to only be inborn traits though.

Well we know too little about Nano-magic to bring up some conclusions. For example as far as I know Sein was an "original" rather than someone's clone and her ability to deep-dive was a pleasant surprise for Jail. But then Schach has that magic too. So the question remains just what are the proportions between linker core compatibility, natural talent and training...

Well yes, but tuned to live a healthy life, not tuned to be the most efficient weapons possible.

Agreed

I think that with the numbers, what we were seeing was the difference between experience. Sure, the numbers are finely tuned weapons and have lots of data... but data and combat experience have, and will always be, two different things. Also, Subaru's IS is basically a giant "fuck your cyborgs." That helped too.

True, one thing I noticed about Numbers is that they are essentially one-trick ponies. Each of them have one specific ability they are good at but not really much besides that, while the Forwards and Captains are far more versatile with a large number of different spells, abilities and plenty of experience. It's not until after StrikerS that Numbers began to expand their arsenal.

In Vivid for example, neither of the two acknowledge a vastly different gap between the two.

True, though that was more or less my point. Subaru, Ginga and Nove are inferior to Quint who was their original BUT they are more or less on the same level between themselves.

 

[Hoki]

More to the point, since spells are technically just equations, theoretically, they can be modified but still produce the same result, similar to how there are long and short methods of doing math. if this is the case, magic can be altered into an IS by tweaking with its equations.

Now the question is what are the exact limits of that. We pretty much know that some linker cores are more specialized than others, like Fate and Erio having lightning affinity. Can something like that be copied with just a magical equation or does it require the linker core to be compatible? And if there are limits, what exactly are they, are there some types of magic only specific people can learn because of genetic/linker core predispositions?

I don't think there are limits to how much a spell can be modified. Remember that Subaru, a new Belkan style user, has a Divine Buster. Her buster is different because it is a close combat spell, but it essentially follows the concept of Nanoha's version. Erio has a thunder rage variant. Teana learned Starlight Breaker, and now has her own version.

Anyway, the interesting thing here is as Keroko pointed out, IS are basically a unique trait of each Cyborg. If Jail were to make a Cyborg Nanoha, he can only give her one unique skill, which won't do at all, if he wants a death machine. Also, in hindsight, Dieci, Wendi, and Otto have basically fragments of Nanoha's skill. Dieci being the big gunner, Wendi being the girl with the small bullets, and Otto being the wide area bomber.

Now I realized why he needs the Project Fate people.

 

[Andarion]

I don't think there are limits to how much a spell can be modified. Remember that Subaru, a new Belkan style user, has a Divine Buster. Her buster is different because it is a close combat spell, but it essentially follows the concept of Nanoha's version. Erio has a thunder rage variant. Teana learned Starlight Breaker, and now has her own version.

Well Subaru is a New Belkan which is a bit of a mix between Mid and Belkan if I remember right and Subaru just might have a talent for that kind of thing. Erio has the same elemental affinity as Fate so there isn't much surprise there and Teana is very much like Nanoha with mid-range ranged attacks. But would for example Subaru be able to use Fate's Thunder Rage with lightning and all or Sein's Deep Diver? Could she learn such specialized skills?

Anyway, the interesting thing here is as Keroko pointed out, IS are basically a unique trait of each Cyborg. If Jail were to make a Cyborg Nanoha, he can only give her one unique skill, which won't do at all, if he wants a death machine. Also, in hindsight, Dieci, Wendi, and Otto have basically fragments of Nanoha's skill. Dieci being the big gunner, Wendi being the girl with the small bullets, and Otto being the wide area bomber.

Now I realized why he needs the Project Fate people.

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant by "one trick pony", Numbers are extremely limited in the capabilities, they only really have one ability they are good at. Though I think they can have more, I mean by the times of Vivid they broadened their arsenal.

I'm not sure just how accurate this is but interesting bit about Inherent Skills

Although the IS may appear like magic, it is not, as it cannot be learned or otherwise directly transferred to anyone but its owner because it is intricately tied to a particular Number's cyborg frame.

http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Inherent_Skill

 

[Gx Hero]

no they have more skills. Wendi has IS ariel Rave, but can shoot a several types of attacks as seen at the end of strikers during her fight with tena. most are close quarter combat types. It would be like asking signum to find more teqniques that aren't sword techniques. Sein though is questionable being she was meant to be mass produced, no flying and no sign of any other skill poor sein

 

[Andarion]

no they have more skills. Wendi has IS ariel Rave, but can shoot a several types of attacks as seen at the end of strikers during her fight with tena. most are close quarter combat types. It would be like asking signum to find more teqniques that aren't sword techniques. Sein though is questionable being she was meant to be mass produced, no flying and no sign of any other skill poor sein

Well aside from just plain Sword attacks Signum also has Bow attack, barriers and the like. The Mid-mages like Fate and Nanoha are even more versatile. Numbers' abilities are just built around their specialities and they don't have anything else. For example Subaru could go against Ginga specifically because she was brainwashed and could only use her speciality rather than the wide array of abilities she learnt through her career.

You could say that Numbers are Specialists, they are meant to work with each other and fill in for each others' weakness' while the Forwards and Captains are much more versatile because they have to act independently.

 

[Kaijo]

I don't think there are limits to how much a spell can be modified. Remember that Subaru, a new Belkan style user, has a Divine Buster. Her buster is different because it is a close combat spell, but it essentially follows the concept of Nanoha's version. Erio has a thunder rage variant. Teana learned Starlight Breaker, and now has her own version.

Just an fyi, but the limit is actually more inline with what the caster is capable of, and what they want to spend the mana on. In other words, what is easiest/best as determined by the caster themselves. If Subaru had the mana reserves, she could very well fire a Divine Buster like Nanoha. In reality, she only named her spell Divine Buster, because it was a fangirl thing. But overall, a mage determines what variables they want their spell to have, and that is constrained by what they are capable of, and what they want to achive.

Divine Buster is a fairly bad (or interesting) example to use, since it is designed more as a variable spell. It is the spell that Nanoha uses when she pumps variable amounts of mana into it. In contrast, Excelion Buster has two main modes: a single beam that is generally stronger than DB, and a multi-beam more called "Force Burst." So she if the situation doesn't call for either EB mode, or she needs something a bit more complex, she uses DB.

In simple math terms, EB would be like quickly recalling that 5+3=8, or 4+4=8, whichever you want to use. Divine Buster is more of x+3y = z, which allows for more leeway due to variables, but also more casting time (except in the case of the short DB version she developed, which is faster and can be fired on the go, but is less powerful).

Bottom line: all the variations that people like Subaru and Teana use, is mostly because of their personal tastes and capabilities. The only theoretical limit to spell modification, is caster imagination, desire, and capability. Subaru could cast a DB just like Nanoha; it would probably be too difficult or time-consuming to be practical in combat. So she sticks with her version which works for her; one with decent casting speed and power, but sacrificing range.

no they have more skills. Wendi has IS ariel Rave, but can shoot a several types of attacks as seen at the end of strikers during her fight with tena. most are close quarter combat types. It would be like asking signum to find more teqniques that aren't sword techniques. Sein though is questionable being she was meant to be mass produced, no flying and no sign of any other skill poor sein

Wanted to mention that Sein wasn't meant to be mass-produced. There are two types of cyborgs. The most understandable is when you attempt to clone a specific individual to get a specific power, ala cloning Quin to get Nove who can use Wing Road. I believe Uno, Cinque, and Sette are the other three clones produced this way. This isn't as reliable as the other method, only useful if you are aiming to get a specific result.

The other way is using specific sperm and egg and genetic tinkering. This way has a better chance of delivering something viable, but the the skills gained will be random. You can't mass-produce a specific individual with this method, then. Sein's Deep Diver was a really rare and unique skill. You could try the cloning method above, but its more expensive and not as reliable.

I presume Jail would have gone on making the two versions as much as he could, mass-producing mostly unique individuals, only attempting to clone specific individuals much more rarely. But it was partly why he was so interested in Fate and Erio as successes of Project F.

 

[Akiyoshi]

I agree on Subaru's Divine Buster. It has pretty short range but seems to be quite devastating as a point-blank anti-personel attack.

 

[Gx Hero]

Then I misheard because in the sound stage when Sein states her IS was the result of a mutation it mentions that she was the base for mass produced combat cyborgs

 

[Kaijo]

Well, in the sense that Jail planned for mass production of cyborgs. But the only mass production method, aka Pure Culture, wouldn't allow for duplication of Sein's unique ability.

 

[Hoki]

Then I misheard because in the sound stage when Sein states her IS was the result of a mutation it mentions that she was the base for mass produced combat cyborgs

No, you didn't. Sein was supposed to be the first of the mass-produced line of Combat Cyborgs. The nature of her IS is what made her a special case and one of Jail's most successful (albeit accidental) creations.

Regarding IS, I find it odd that some IS are reliant on a specific weapon for it to be utilized to its full extent. Examples of these are Dieci, Deed, Wendi, and Sette. Note that all of them have personal equipment that let them use their IS, whereas others like Cinque, Quattro, Otto, Tre, Nove, Sein, Due, and Uno can freely use their IS.

 

[Andarion]

]Regarding IS, I find it odd that some IS are reliant on a specific weapon for it to be utilized to its full extent. Examples of these are Dieci, Deed, Wendi, and Sette. Note that all of them have personal equipment that let them use their IS, whereas others like Cinque, Quattro, Otto, Tre, Nove, Sein, Due, and Uno can freely use their IS.

That might just have been the way they were designed. Also Tre and Nove DO require their equipment to work properly. They are essentially a well-balanced fighting force with each member specializing in something else. Also the equipment can act as force multiplier. Note how much more mobile Wendi is and how much firepower she wields thanks to her flying board or how much damage can Dieci dish out with her cannon. They are essentially Heavy Weapons specialists for Numbers.
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Ride_Impulse
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Break_Liner

Also it may be just compensating for inferior stats. For example Tre is pretty much the strongest and most mobile of the Numbers because she has the best stats and cybernetics while the rest is somewhat weaker.

 

[Hoki]

]Regarding IS, I find it odd that some IS are reliant on a specific weapon for it to be utilized to its full extent. Examples of these are Dieci, Deed, Wendi, and Sette. Note that all of them have personal equipment that let them use their IS, whereas others like Cinque, Quattro, Otto, Tre, Nove, Sein, Due, and Uno can freely use their IS.

That might just have been the way they were designed. Also Tre and Nove DO require their equipment to work properly. They are essentially a well-balanced fighting force with each member specializing in something else. Also the equipment can act as force multiplier. Note how much more mobile Wendi is and how much firepower she wields thanks to her flying board or how much damage can Dieci dish out with her cannon. They are essentially Heavy Weapons specialists for Numbers.
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Ride_Impulse
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Break_Liner

Also it may be just compensating for inferior stats. For example Tre is pretty much the strongest and most mobile of the Numbers because she has the best stats and cybernetics while the rest is somewhat weaker.

That's the thing. Why were some of them designed to work better with specialized equipment? Did Jail want to create a platoon of Diecis or Wendis if people subscribed to his combat cyborg tech?

 

[Andarion]

That's the thing. Why were some of them designed to work better with specialized equipment? Did Jail want to create a platoon of Diecis or Wendis if people subscribed to his combat cyborg tech?

It was for the sake of versatility. Numbers are essentially test bed for a variety of different abilities, equipment, tactics, weapons etc. etc. Jail was essentially grabbing what interested him and tinkered with it trying to see what works better and in what condition. He was pretty much doing prototyping and weapons testing.

Also each Number has a speciality, something they are extremely good at. The key to successful combat is not to rely on a single seemingly all-powerful weapon because that can be easily countered. You use combined arms, specialists, force multipliers and throw a well-rounded and versatile fighting force at the enemy. Force that can adapt to the battlefield through the use of the groups abilities.

Wendi and Dieci were simply a test, he wanted to see what cyborgs using specialized equipment are capable of and how do they compare to those whose abilities are built into their bodies. Jail was a researcher he was curious so he tested.

 

[keroko]

That's the thing. Why were some of them designed to work better with specialized equipment? Did Jail want to create a platoon of Diecis or Wendis if people subscribed to his combat cyborg tech?

Essentially? Yes. That was the entire purpose of the cyborg program to begin with for the High Council. The ability to mass-produce a reliable influx of powerful personnel to keep order.

 

[Gx Hero]

actualy otto dosen't have equipment she can produce the blades like cinque can her stingers and so can sette. though it is odd that they not have two Is Like Deeds swords plus another Is.

 

[Kaijo]

Do note that, again, would you do Pure Culture, which was the stated method of general cyborg mass-production, any abilities gained are random. So, since it is random, you can't base it off any one cyborg, and you have odds of getting someone strong or weak. You can't really design for anything in particular.

 

[Gx Hero]

no I agree just stating what I think of Deeds abilit. I realized I said the wrong ones name. Anyway Deeds IS is the conjuring of her swords which is real handy since you can almost never be unarmed, problem is upgrades.