Nanoha Vivid Discussion

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#1
Aside from Force and Innocent, the other Nanoha manga currently around is Vivid. For those new to the franchise (if there are any), this manga centers around Vivio Takamachi, Nanoha's adopted daughter, and her adventures.

Here we discuss the latest chapters, characters and anything Vivid-related.

DSAA fight, ready... GO!
 

jaredstar

Well-Known Member
#2
so are force and vivid part of the same time line or alternate universe of each other
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#3
Force and Vivid are part of the same timeline. Chronologically, Vivid happens before Force.
 

jaredstar

Well-Known Member
#4
i just remember once hearing that one was an alternate of the other
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#5
The only alternate continuities thus far are the Movies and Innocent. Nanoha, A's, StrikerS, Sound Stage X, ViVid, and Force all share a single, main continuity.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#6
Rising Dragon said:
The only alternate continuities thus far are the Movies and Innocent. Nanoha, A's, StrikerS, Sound Stage X, ViVid, and Force all share a single, main continuity.
Don't forget the games. They are alternate continuities too.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#7
Origin timeline - Triangle Hearts 3
Main timeline - S1, A's, StrikerS, SSX, ViVid, Force
Movie timeline - Movie 1st, A's Movie, Reflections
Video Game timeline - Battle of Aces, Gears of Destiny

Single shot timelines

Movie 1st Manga
Nanoha Novel
Nanoha Innocent Manga
 

ragnarok1337

Well-Known Member
#8
I tried to read Vivid. The creepy loli fanservice made me stop immediately.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#9
It hasn't been really fanservicey lately. And the fanservice it HAS been showing featured mainly on older female characters, like Victoria.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#10
The fanservice didn't bother me so much as the lack of plot and the tournament arc did.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#11
Well if they follow the normal formula, it would start out lighthearted, then move on into serious. Unlike Force, which was serious on the get go.

Besides, there's still the question of who Sieg's ancestor is... Apparently she's (the ancestor that is) friends with Olivie and Klaus.

Too bad she doesn't go "LARIATOO!!!"
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#12
Honestly, I dropped ViVid when the tournament arc was announced, I... REALLY don't care too much for the new characters, like, at all.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#13
For me its a break from the complicated stuff that happened in StrikerS. After all, the fate of the universe won't be decided on a tournament. Just good old fashioned fights.

Sieg should get lessons from the Raikage.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#14
Hoki said:
For me its a break from the complicated stuff that happened in StrikerS. After all, the fate of the universe won't be decided on a tournament. Just good old fashioned fights.

Sieg should get lessons from the Raikage.
First of all, never mention THAT series ever again.

Secondly, tournaments and the Nanoha series don't mix. It's like oil and water.

Lastly, they could have done it much differently than they have.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#15
Nanya said:
Hoki said:
For me its a break from the complicated stuff that happened in StrikerS. After all, the fate of the universe won't be decided on a tournament. Just good old fashioned fights.

Sieg should get lessons from the Raikage.
First of all, never mention THAT series ever again.
What? Just saying that Sieg could use more good wrestling moves in addition to armbars/judo throws.

I know you hate "that series" and all, but c'mon, no need to snap at me like that.

Secondly, tournaments and the Nanoha series don't mix. It's like oil and water.
As much as I would like to agree with you, there should be a point where magic is not only used for fighting dangerous criminals. Vivid is that thing, magic shown as a form of recreation or sport.

Lastly, they could have done it much differently than they have.
Like how? Can't our dear heroine get a break from saving the universe and watch her daughter pursue the things that she likes without risking her life for it?
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#16
That series is an abomination and should never be uttered. *Twitch twitch*

Anyway, didn't mean to make it sound like I snapped at you.

I could agree with the whole "using magic for relaxation purposes" thing, but tournament arcs just... Well, they seem like bad writing at times. Very, very few series can pull them off well.
 

Kireen

Well-Known Member
#17
I have to agree, and by the looks of things it looks like people from the administrated worlds just pay up to see lolis beat the crap out of each other, we just miss the mud.

It's not that I don't like the series, it has it's good moments, but the rest feels pointless.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#18
How can I put it?

If they wanna do a story about magical kung-fu, that's fine in its own way, but

1) The artist isn't good enough at drawing bodies, so some of the joints (hips in particular) end up looking pretty off,

2) The artist should at least know enough about kung-fu to know when they're drawing something retarded.

Well, no matter what, measuring power levels is not one of the strengths of the Nanoha franchise, so a power-level-measuring contest is always going to be a little painful to watch.

In one sentence... I just feel like Vivid was designed by a committee, and the artist is trying to compensate for a boring plot by trying too hard?
 

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
#19
Should keep in mind that kung-fu is only one type of martial art. Each martial art is different. There are even stark differences in sub genres of martial arts, depending on the particular styles one uses. Of all the complaints one can make about Vivid, criticizing the martial arts is a fairly weak one, since they are using a style that uses magic. Therefore, things that might not make much sense in our world, work there because of magic.

Vivid's main problem is the lack of plot, and over emphasis on fanservice. Sex does sell, sadly (Vivid is outselling Force), especially when loli's are involved. It's kinda sad that otaku in Japan has to be that way, but I see enough otaku in the west who are equally as bad, so....

At this point, I only read to get info on new magical styles and other world-building aspects. Helps with the fanfiction. But if the hints about ancient Belka are anything to go by, it would be nice to get info on the past, too.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#20
...I wasn't using "kung fu" to mean "the Chinese Martial Art agglomerate refered to as kung fu (well Wu Shu these days but w/e)", I was using it to mean "martial arts".

Anyway, I stopped respecting the fighting in chapter 3, because...

1) Page 12. Vivio's got a really goofy-looking knuckle there, she's definately gonna jam her pointer finger, but whatever. What really got me was that silly-looking.... thing... Corona's doing with her leg in the upper left. Is it a turning kick? No, because she'd jam all her toes. It's not a straight kick like her foot is positioned, because her upper body is twisting to her right. It's like the artist drew two completely different kicks, and just copypastad the unrelated top and bottom halves together.

2) Page 16. Another jam-all-your-toes kick. This is the first panel where I saw someone smackin' their shin into something. That hurts so bad. This happens a lot in Vivid, even though it's so painful. I guess they're wearing magic shin guards? It really drew my attention.

3) Next page, 17. I don't even know what this is, but I do know that (2.1) There is no way Nove could still be standing when the raised leg gets a big ol' push like that, and (2.2) that sort of impact right on your heel with something as hard as another heel would break your foot, or at least fuck up your ankle, and (2.3) they probably fell over really stupid-like in the next panel.

I mean, this isn't like Dragonball Z, where the kung-fu is different because their engagement range is like a kilometer, also they all fly around, and shoot beams, and have tank armor for skin. This is a just stupid-looking, they don't look like humans moving according to human biomechanics, they look like badly posed dolls.

This would be a pretty shallow criticism... except Vivid is basically all about kung fu.

Einheart wanders around picking fights in the middle of the night; I was like "where the fuck are this girl's parents", but I guess that never came up, it was just a way to set up a kung-fu rivalry with Vivio.

She's the reincarnation of Hegemon Ingevalt, which implies even more questions about her background, like "is Jail her godfather, like she's a success from his reincarnation experiments or something? Or is Einheart also some kinda cyborg?" Nope, we never find out, it's just a way to make her Vivio's kung-fu rival in the last lifetime or whatever, so we get that homoerotic subtext going on too.

Hey wait, isn't Vivio learning magic from Yuuno or something? I know Nanoha, as a series, is all about informed abilities like that, but I mean, the guy's an archaeologist. Maybe he could take them on a trip to see an old castle or something, kinda explore the whole "coming to terms with being a cyborg clone of the Emperor" plot we've got set up with these two. It could even start up like a Lost Logia or sommat, I don't even know.

Nope! Tournament arc!

But I'd be willing to go with it, if the battle poses weren't so goofy-looking.

In the end, I just don't respect the mangaka's ability as a storyteller, this feels like, he was hired to cash in on a hot property, he's not in it to tell a story he cares about tellin, so he just wrote down a checklist of all the pantyshots and stuff that he thought would make it sell, and then writes each chapter by spending the absolute minimum amount of thought he could to check off all the little boxes.

EDIT: Misspellings galore!
 

ragnarok1337

Well-Known Member
#21
Kaijo said:
Vivid's main problem is the lack of plot, and over emphasis on fanservice. Sex does sell, sadly (Vivid is outselling Force), especially when loli's are involved. It's kinda sad that otaku in Japan has to be that way, but I see enough otaku in the west who are equally as bad, so....
Force is just bad in general. Worst part is the author reportedly doesn't even understand why everyone hates it so much.
 

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
#22
daniel_gudman said:
...I wasn't using "kung fu" to mean "the Chinese Martial Art agglomerate refered to as kung fu (well Wu Shu these days but w/e)", I was using it to mean "martial arts".

Anyway, I stopped respecting the fighting in chapter 3, because...

1) Page 12. Vivio's got a really goofy-looking knuckle there, she's definately gonna jam her pointer finger, but whatever. What really got me was that silly-looking.... thing... Corona's doing with her leg in the upper left. Is it a turning kick? No, because she'd jam all her toes. It's not a straight kick like her foot is positioned, because her upper body is twisting to her right. It's like the artist drew two completely different kicks, and just copypastad the unrelated top and bottom halves together.
Gonna stop it right here. You're thinking too much in physical terms. We already know they coat their bodies in auto-barriers, so they do use magic in their attacks. What hits you isn't Vivio's fist; it's Vivio's magic (which would feel like a brick walla slamming into your face). This is what allows 10 year old girls to punch through solid cement. In this context, varied martial arts styles, and unorthodox punches and kicks would be more effective, because it would be something you'd be less likely to expect. All that matters in this case, is a physical motion to activate a spell. Perhaps coupled with a motion that brings a hand or a foot into close proximity with your body.

Also, I've learned not to care so much about art style in this regard, as I never expect manga writers to do things perfectly; that would be expecting too much. Once I let that go, I no longer get upset, because I realize it really is nitpicking. I mean, if you're going to go this route, then perhaps you should be complaining about the REALLY LARGE EYES that everyone seems to have. If you're going to complain about one physically awkward piece of art, then you have to consider the other ones, too. Much like the eyes, it is just something you accept. Tsuzuki isn't a master; he's just a mangaka. His job is get across the main points, which are that the girls are using a fighting style that's is practiced on another planet.

ragnarok1337 said:
Force is just bad in general. Worst part is the author reportedly doesn't even understand why everyone hates it so much.
This is the Vivid thread, not the Force thread, so you'd be advised to address your issues with it there. That said, I believe the phrase "eye of the beholder" pretty much sums it up. Personal distaste is fine, but "Everyone hates it" is going to a bit too far. I personally know plenty of people that like it. And the fact is, it IS selling quite well. If everyone hated it, then very few people would be buying it.

There are manga series I dislike, too, but that is just my personal subjective opinion. I don't go beyond that to say that everyone else should hate it as well. Different strokes for different folks.
 
#23
daniel_gudman said:
Einheart wanders around picking fights in the middle of the night; I was like "where the fuck are this girl's parents", but I guess that never came up, it was just a way to set up a kung-fu rivalry with Vivio.

She's the reincarnation of Hegemon Ingevalt, which implies even more questions about her background, like "is Jail her godfather, like she's a success from his reincarnation experiments or something? Or is Einheart also some kinda cyborg?" Nope, we never find out, it's just a way to make her Vivio's kung-fu rival in the last lifetime or whatever, so we get that homoerotic subtext going on too.

Hey wait, isn't Vivio learning magic from Yuuno or something? I know Nanoha, as a series, is all about informed abilities like that, but I mean, the guy's an archaeologist. Maybe he could take them on a trip to see an old castle or something, kinda explore the whole "coming to terms with being a cyborg clone of the Emperor" plot we've got set up with these two. It could even start up like a Lost Logia or sommat, I don't even know.

Nope! Tournament arc!
You're on my exact wavelength.

Except there needs to be more complaining about the appearance of two more Belkan emporers after the second one. Four total, now. (How does an empire have four emperors? Especially when two are allies?)

At least Ixpellia was a GALLIAN empress. (Where the given value of "empress" is "slave-hostage" / "zombie factory".)

Also, absolutely NO background on Midchilda during those wars. What the hell.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#24
They're descendents of Belkan rulers, not Belkan Emperors. The Sankt Kaiser was likely a title for Olivie's ruler, and became an Emperor in truth when she conquered the rest.
 

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
#25
The Nanoha wiki gives a good summation:

Prehistory (先史 Senshi) / Warring Ages
Belka expands its own territory not only into other countries but also other worlds thanks to the use of advanced mass-based weapons. Belkan scientific advances are attributed to technological outflow from Al-Hazard over 1000 years ago. Around the same time, with great technological advancements in the field of human life manipulation, many Kings decide to strengthen their own bodies artificially and force that same fate upon their descendants. However, the Warring Ages end with the fall of the Belkan nation after their homeworld becomes an uninhabitable due hundreds years worth of pollution, possibly caused by the unrestrained use of mass-weaponry.

Saint King Unification War
The Saint King lineage transfers itself to peripheral worlds using the Saint's Cradle and sets out to rebuild their empire after its collapse with the fall of Belka. The resulting war ended with the loss of the Cradle and the annihilation of the Belkan royal family. The survivors establish themselves in their remaining worlds and abandon the name of "Belka" completely. It was also around this time, the Ancient Belka magic system was completely lost in time, except for the parts stored in the Book of Darkness.

So, as you can see, there are many different countries and planets and governments in the Belkan empire, and after Belka itself fell, the empire fractured. There were now many different rulers vying for supremacy. Vivio, Einhart, Ixpellia, and Victoria are all related to those various rulers in one way or another. Could be others out there, too.
 
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