Nasuverse Pactio in the Nasuverse

[Prince Charon]

Related to <a href='http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Fanfiction_Forum/index.php?showtopic=20843&hl=' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>this thread</a>.

First, since not everyone is that into Negima, here's <a href='http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Pactio' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>the Negima wiki article on the Pactio</a>.

The short version:

Pactio is a magical contract used by many mages in Negima. The word is based on the Latin word "pactio", the action of making a "pactum" or "agreement". The word 'pactio' is also fairly often called a "provisional contract." Pactios can be created with any magic user, although not all magic users can create a magica circle. The partner with whom the pactio is formed attain abilities related to their personalities. In the remake series, <a href='http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Negima!%3F' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Negima!?</a>, the formation is known as a "neo-pactio."

So, in other settings, with other magic systems, the pactio, or an equivalent thereof, would be mechanically different, if it would be possible at all, and would change the setting to varying degrees.

In the Nasuverse, a pactio would probably be a variant on the process of creating a living, human <a href='http://tatari.byethost33.com/fuyuki/magic.htm#Familiars' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>familiar</a>, and might involve opening any magic circuits the Minister/Ministra has. Given the nature of Nasuverse magic, it might not be all that widespread, unless it has some means of bypassing the 'peak magic' limits, or there's a good chance of getting an Ala Alba level partner out of it.

Let's say its something Zelretch came up with, derived from the Kaleidostick. The circle and ceremony connect you to the Mystic Code that creates the pactios (and paired Mystic Codes in the form of the pactio cards), which draws power from other worlds, thus bypassing the peak mana problem, and explaining why magi are so inclined to use it, despite the drawbacks: it was created after Zel read the Negima manga (first published in 2003, so, just before the Fifth Holy Grail War), and the Mystic Code has both a sense of humour, and a strong belief in the Powers of Love and Friendship. Thus, if you don't care about your partner, you really don't get much more prana out of it than you put in, and if you do care, you get rather a lot. Likewise, the strength of you belief in the Power of Love and the Power of Friendship could grant a bonus or penalty. Also, the decision of who is the Magister/Magistra, and who the Minister/Ministra, is up to the MC, which I'm thinking of calling <a href='http://negima.wikia.com/wiki/Chamo' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Chamo</a>. Shirou has a Reality Marble, and thus is usually the Magister despite his few and low quality magic circuits, unless he makes a pactio with someone who also has a RM and is more powerful (Sacchin could go either way, in that case, considering the WTF?! levels of both their situations), has a Marble Phantasm, or possess True Magic. This is especially ironic because Shirou is much more of a front-line fighter than some of his potential Ministrae are.

Most likely, Shirou's Ministrae would have Artifacts, which would be swords (or other items compatable with Unlimited Blade Works) from other worlds, that are especially fitting for them. In general, Artifacts tend to be either copied or summoned from their dimentions of origin, hence being fairly rare. If/when Shirou pactios with Saber (which may require Rin teaching him how), she would at least get a copy of Avalon (after all, its right there, so Chamo doesn't need to go hunting for it), and might also get one of more of the other significant items she owned in life, that she didn't have on her when summoned.

When the Magister/a and Minister/a care about each other to different degrees, and have differing levels of belief in the Powers, the one with more prana can still transfer it to the one with less, but that can lead to the Minister being able to control the flow of prana to the Magister, instead of the other way around (even though the Magister/a can activate or cancel the Minister/a's use of the card, s/he can only control the flow of prana if s/he is the one with more of it; water flows downhill). If Sakura made a pactio with Shinji, they'd be a fairly typical Magistra and Minister, powerwise: Shinji gets nothing she doesn't give him, because she cares about him, but he cares nothing for her. However, he'd be a pretty crappy Minister, all told, thanks to his personality. If Rin made a contract with Kotomine, neither would get much out of it, as they really don't care for each other, or believe in those Powers (well, Rin sort of does, a little, but she's tried to kill that part of her self).

Pactio pairs/groups where each cares about the other work out much better, of course. Shirou, Rin, and Saber from something like the UBW Good End would be bloody terrifying as a Magister and Ministrae. Shirou, Sakura, and Rider from something like the HF True End, even more so, thanks to the prana boost Sakura has in that route. Likewise, Bazett and Lancer would be a hell of a pair, and might be able to avoid getting pwn'd by Kotomine (really, pactioing with your Servant is just good sense). So, there is now a clear and somewhat quantifiable benefit to a magus being a nice person.

Let me repeat that: There is now a clear and somewhat quantifiable benefit to a magus being a nice person.

That could change magi culture quite a bit, no?

 

[daniel_gudman]

Seeing as how Zelretch is one of the guys that set up the murder tournament called the Heaven's Feel ritual in the first place, and has been a bigwig in Clock Tower for literal centuries, overseeing and tacitly-or-explicitly endorsing typical mage behaviors...

I don't see Zelretch actually doing any of that. He wouldn't hand out his hard-earned Second Magic. He values the Masquerade. And he laughs at "love and friendship"... using the Kaledostick is supposed to be humiliating, remember? Don't forget, that Zelretch isn't really a very good person.

It doesn't solve the "finite mana" dilemma, but rather, exports it to another dimension. It's like solving your oil shortage by stealing it from another country. It doesn't address that native demand is higher than native supply, it just provides artificial supply at someone else's expense.

Throwing 2nd magic doesn't solve the mana problem, it just turns a mage into a different kind of asshole.

If anybody's gonna do something like this, it's Zouken--who has already developed a thaumaturgy between magus and familiar that allows the magus to grant their familiar commands that approach True Magic.

So I hypothesize, let's call it, Command Seal version 2. CSv2 is a contractual magic between a mage and... somebody/something intelligent enough to comprehend and accept orders. A familiar, a muggle, another mage, whatever. The magus can sink mana into the CSv2, tie it to a command, and ship it to their contractee, who is then empowered by the mana-soaked order to perform a great feat (which the contractee could embrace or resist according to their own will).

Maybe a specialized command like "Crystallize Your Origin" would allow the contractee to project a phantasmal mystic code that forces their origin on reality or something like that. That's... that's a stretch, I think.

If I was gonna write a story about this, it would be subtitled "How Zouken got off his keister and put some effort into actually winning the Grail War". He'd give it to Sakura, as like a present or something. He's a creepy dude, that fits.

Also I'm freaked out whenever people suggest post!HF Sakura uses all the prana she absorbed like it's okay for her to do that. It's literally dissolved people. I imagine every time it flows through her circuits she hears the disembodied screams of everyone that died without knowing what was happening to them. Anyway that's something I wanted off my chest.

 

[Avider]

Sure it does.

Infinite worlds does that to a problem of supply.

Also I'm freaked out whenever people suggest post!HF Sakura uses all the prana she absorbed like it's okay for her to do that. It's literally dissolved people. I imagine every time it flows through her circuits she hears the disembodied screams of everyone that died without knowing what was happening to them. Anyway that's something I wanted off my chest.

That's because they're not talking about that prana, whatever that prana is.

They're talking about the prana flowing from the connection to the other side.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Infinite worlds does that to a problem of supply.

Yeah, and infinite magi living on those infinite worlds are sucking up infinite amounts of mana. I can say that the infinite demand is greater than the infinite supply. We're just exploring territory described by <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_theorem' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Cantor's Theorem</a> is all.

Well, assuming the principle of mediocrity, but that's a default supposition. So, as long as you assume that those other worlds are inhabited by organisms that don't use the mana being generated... but if you assume that 1 in 10, 100, or 1000 worlds has mana-users, then that's still an infinite number of mages.

Anyway, it means that you're being an asshole to people you can't see, rather than people you can.

 

[Avider]

Other way around.



Actually no I can't say that (without going into too much details and work), but it doesn't matter much since I don't think you can say that either.

So not a problem.

 

[daniel_gudman]

...you lost me.

 

[Avider]

You can't say which one has the greater cardinality.

I.e.

I can say that the infinite demand is greater than the infinite supply.

No.



There's infinite worlds where there are magus.

Likewise there's infinite worlds where there are no magus.

Which is larger.

 

[Prince Charon]

There's infinite worlds where there are magus.

Likewise there's infinite worlds where there are no magus.

Which is larger.

Yes. Also, there's the question of different worlds having different amounts of mana available. Here's an example that I'd have linked to earlier, if I'd remembered:

Planets with no ley lines are Mana-Dead worlds. No life can begin there, though it can be transplanted there through scientific means. Magic is almost completely impossible on Mana-Dead worlds.

Worlds with few ley lines are Mana-Poor. They can support life and they are often worlds of great scientific and technological achievement, for magic comes with too much difficulty to be major factor on these worlds.

A planet whose ley lines fall into the middle of the range is generally called Mana-Normal. There magic and science come with about equal ease.

A planet with a high concentration of ley lines is Mana-Rich.There almost everything is magical and science is almost unknown.

Finally, a world with too many ley lines is Mana-Toxic. There the power of magic is so strong that it warps and kills any life that comes into contact with it for too long. It may seem strange that magic, a force necessary for life, could be fatal, but water is also necessary for life and one can still drown. The overabundance of magic on these worlds quickly leads to hallucinations, dementia, mutations, and then death.

From the <a href='http://www.thekeep.org/~wombat/Stories/Z/Reader.html#Magic' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Sailor Moon Z Reader's Guide</a>. Just read 'ley lines' as 'mana', really. Its an example to illustrate the concept, rather than a suggestion of how it must work.

As for 'Why Zelretch?', firstly, he's a bit nuts, and second, the existence of the Kaleidostick is clear evidence that he doesn't have good control over the personalities of his artifacts, given that it hates him (or, maybe he wanted it to hate him - again, he's a bit nuts). EDIT: Also, with infinite worlds, its not unreasonable that there's one that's mostly similar to the canon Nasuverse, but has a Zelretch that is concerned enough about the 'peak mana' problem to do this.

BTW, Avider, is English not your first language? I mean, you're clearly intelligent, but you often express your ideas in ways that are really unclear on the first post, requiring people to question you until they know what you're talking about.

 

[Avider]

First post is usually refutation or affirmation with maybe short explanation.

Subsequent posts expounds if needed or asked.


I generally believe that people, if they have a solid grasp of what they said, would be able to understand what I say, and so cut short many unnecessary words with only the core message left.

That and I have no problems with people asking for clarifications, something which I find myself doing a lot as well.

 

[Prince Charon]

First post is usually refutation or affirmation with maybe short explanation.

Subsequent posts expounds if needed or asked.


I generally believe that people, if they have a solid grasp of what they said, would be able to understand what I say, and so cut short many unnecessary words with only the core message left.

That and I have no problems with people asking for clarifications, something which I find myself doing a lot as well.

Ah. The problem is, of course, that people consistently don't know what you're talking about, and seem to get annoyed that they need to ask for clarifications. Its fine that you don't mind giving them, but annoyed people often don't think as well as calm people.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Also I'm freaked out whenever people suggest post!HF Sakura uses all the prana she absorbed like it's okay for her to do that.

Well, ignoring the fact that it's not "dissolved people", why is it wrong to use it? It's not like not doing so will bring them back....

It's literally dissolved people. I imagine every time it flows through her circuits she hears the disembodied screams of everyone that died without knowing what was happening to them. Anyway that's something I wanted off my chest.

No, it isn't. The prana she has post-HF comes directly from her connection to Akasha. If it were "dissolved people", then it would not be building up in her. She would have one lot, and then it would be gone.

 

[shioran toushin]

hey CL, can you tell me where is said (or implied) that Sakura has a conection with Akasha? KTHXBye
also Sakura's dissolved and eaten peoples are food and energy for her and do nothing permanent to her mana/prana/od pool, she just om nom nom noms on their beings and/or souls, and while she should be horrified of having done that (AM possession or Dark!Sakura excuses do not work here if she remembers doing it CL, Ciel and Sion demostrate that) by the same rule we must be hearing the screams of the thousand cows that are killed every time we eat a burger, the blood flows trough our veins or take a dump.

 

[Prince Charon]

IIRC, Sakura, post HF, has too much prana, which builds up and must be periodically drained (maintaining Medusa helps with that). Since she's no longer eating people, the excess prana must be coming from somewhere else. Not sure where that somewhere is, though.

 

[shioran toushin]

what i though was her being conected to the ley lines that powered the Great Grail (the physical one under Ryuudou), but IIRC Akasha was not mentioned once, that is why i asked CL to show me where is stated or implied that conection.
i may be misremembering something or just didn't pay atention to that :huh.: who knows. OTOH he could be misremembering too.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Also I'm freaked out whenever people suggest post!HF Sakura uses all the prana she absorbed like it's okay for her to do that.

Well, ignoring the fact that it's not "dissolved people", why is it wrong to use it? It's not like not doing so will bring them back....

Because using something that was stolen from someone else is wrong. It's the power of forcibly sacrificed humans. No one has no right to that power, because it was ripped from the bodies of innocent, unknowing people without their consent.

If I killed you and went through your pockets and took your money, then you're saying it wouldn't be wrong to spend the money, because "it's not like doing so will bring them back."

So that's just saying that, during the game, she was a criminal.

It's literally dissolved people. I imagine every time it flows through her circuits she hears the disembodied screams of everyone that died without knowing what was happening to them. Anyway that's something I wanted off my chest.

No, it isn't. The prana she has post-HF comes directly from her connection to Akasha. If it were "dissolved people", then it would not be building up in her. She would have one lot, and then it would be gone.

I coulda sworn yeah, she just had one big humongous wad of prana from the events of the game, but in retrospect, I'm not sure...

"She was connected to Angra Mainyu, so she's still connected with the other side. Vast amounts of of magical energy are collecting in Sakura's body, and she has to periodically let it out."

Oh, you're right. Her power isn't a pile of ghosts, she's siphoning off the afterlife.

...wait...

 

[Avider]

???

So are you still freaked out?

Or can you think rationally now?

 

[daniel_gudman]

Eh.

Sometimes when Heaven's Feel comes up, I feel like I'm on an episode of the twilight zone where I'm the only one that remembers dead people, and everyone else acts like I'm talking about people that never existed in the first place. Kinda like the one with Shatner and the gremlins.

Also I'm not 100% sure that Shirou wasn't being manipulated magically, so there's that.

Basically, the sickly-sweet "happily ever after" just felt really dissonant after spending an entire route of "Shirou didn't actually know Sakura at all; Shirou throws away the one thing he cares about more than anything; and lots of people get killed."

I finished HFT and had to go eat a sandwich to get the sick taste out of my mouth.

...

So no, after further consideration, I'm not entirely done being freaked out yet.

 

[Prince Charon]

It might make more sense/be more acceptable if you're Japanese. Then again, maybe not. I tend to go with 'she was insane by the time she started intentionally killing people, and probably was insane before that point'.

Also, she isn't siphoning off the afterlife, she's got prana from all the evils of humanity being poured into her. Involuntarily. Since she doesn't want to melt or explode, she needs to do something with it. So, there's no moral problem with that part of it (in fact it may be a good thing, if it reduces Angra Maiynu's ability to influence the world - not sure if it does, but it could), and we can get the thread back on the rails, yeah?

Also, if anyone cares, there <a href='http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/1054-Pactio-in-the-Nasuverse-Open-Idea-Discussion-thread' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>a thread for this</a> on Beast's Lair. The link is also useful if you're looking for the current URL for Beast's Lair.

What might Sacchin and or Sion gain from being Shirou's Ministra? As I said on Beast's Lair, its canon that purple haired girls like Shirou. :snigger:

 

[Cherry_lover]

hey CL, can you tell me where is said (or implied) that Sakura has a conection with Akasha? KTHXBye

In the HF True epilogue. It's said that she has lots of prana pooling inside her due to her connection to the "other side".

also Sakura's dissolved and eaten peoples are food and energy for her and do nothing permanent to her mana/prana/od pool, she just om nom nom noms on their beings and/or souls, and while she should be horrified of having done that (AM possession or Dark!Sakura excuses do not work here if she remembers doing it CL, Ciel and Sion demostrate that) by the same rule we must be hearing the screams of the thousand cows that are killed every time we eat a burger, the blood flows trough our veins or take a dump.

Yeah, exactly.

a) The prana she has post-HF is not in any way related to the people she "ate and b) even if it were, it's not like she can change that now.

Oh, and she's not in any way "responsible" for what happened in HF, because she was not sane at the time. However, that does not mean she won't feel "horrified" by it....

Because using something that was stolen from someone else is wrong. It's the power of forcibly sacrificed humans. No one has no right to that power, because it was ripped from the bodies of innocent, unknowing people without their consent.

How is it "wrong" for her to use prana which she accumilated accidentally? It's not like she has any choice about it being there.

If I killed you and went through your pockets and took your money, then you're saying it wouldn't be wrong to spend the money, because "it's not like doing so will bring them back."

Spending the money wouldn't be wrong, killing you in the first place would be.

Plus, that's a false comparison, because the money could still be given to someone else. A better comparison would be if you received a kidney transplant that turned out to have been taken from someone without their consent (and that person had died as a result). It wouldn't then be reasonable to expect you to remove the kidney, even though you shouldn't have had it in the first place.

So that's just saying that, during the game, she was a criminal.

In what way?

Oh, you're right. Her power isn't a pile of ghosts, she's siphoning off the afterlife.

It's not the "afterlife". The Nasuverse doesn't have an "afterlife" in that sense. What Rin is talking about is Akasha, I think.

Sometimes when Heaven's Feel comes up, I feel like I'm on an episode of the twilight zone where I'm the only one that remembers dead people, and everyone else acts like I'm talking about people that never existed in the first place. Kinda like the one with Shatner and the gremlins.

What, the fact that we don't blame Sakura for doing absolutely nothing wrong means that we don't notice that people died?

Also I'm not 100% sure that Shirou wasn't being manipulated magically, so there's that.

Erm, what?

Basically, the sickly-sweet "happily ever after" just felt really dissonant after spending an entire route of "Shirou didn't actually know Sakura at all; Shirou throws away the one thing he cares about more than anything; and lots of people get killed."

What, Sakura doesn't deserve a fucking happy ending after all she's been through?

 

[daniel_gudman]

Also I'm not 100% sure that Shirou wasn't being manipulated magically, so there's that.

Erm, what?

I vividly remember the moment I considered that... I think it was the 12th night... it was that one ero scene when Shirou was exhausted, he'd been out fighting after getting the arm transplanted, and when he got home he was like "I am so tired. I just want to sleep", and then Sakura was like "sexy tiem?" and he was "honey I'm tired, I have a headache", and Sakura was all "sexy tiem???" and then he was sayin' "let's go", and then the ero scene, man, that did not sound sexy. I felt like Nasu was trying to show me "dude stoked on Love Potion" without turning to the audience and directly telling me his brain was soaked with magic.

And then I remembered that Shirou had completely dropped the "Rider raped me in my dreams" thing. He didn't follow up, he didn't say a damn word to anyone about it, he didn't even think about it. I kept an eye peeled because I thought, guaranteed, that would bite Rider in the ass. And I thought how similar the descriptive language was between those two scenes.

And then I thought to myself, "I wonder if Rider left something behind that time."

Of if the materialization of Sakura's darkest, deepest desires did something to him after it swallowed him.

And then I thought about how scrupulously Shirou worked at not connecting the Shadow and Sakura, even when Archer was like, "I know you know".

After that, considering to the rest of the game where Shirou pounded his body so hard and suffered so much, how quickly he abandoned his dream for the sake of Sakura became... really, really suspicious.

So yeah, I seriously don't know whether Shirou was brainwashed by Rider or the Shadow.

What, Sakura doesn't deserve a fucking happy ending after all she's been through?

...

You know...

...when the question is placed before me, even if it simply rhetorical...

No, I don't really think she does.

I guess the thing is, we're divided over how much agency we think Sakura exerted over the Shadow.

You don't assign her any responsibility for her dark desires manifest... while I do.

And even then, even then... I think she's guilty of willful ignorance, like Shirou.

So no, when we get right down to it, post Heaven's Feel, I don't think Sakura deserves a happy ending. During that route, she crossed a moral line, from "victim" of Bad Magic to "abuser" of Bad Magic.

 

[ttestagr]

Sakura places blame on herself for every person who died. She herself is of the opinion that she murdered dozens to hundreds of people. Then she puts it aside, settles down, and does nothing to show remorse for those actions. Despite feeling that she is to blame.

That alone makes her a bad person.

 

[Hawk]

I'm confused, did we all play the same Heavens Feel?

I can understand why people will not like Sakura during it, but what some of you are saying is so biased that it has nothing to do with the real thing.

Sakura did show remorse, now I can understand if people think that she shouldn't be given redemption, but to say she ". Then she puts it aside, settles down, and does nothing to show remorse for those actions. " is just silly.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Sakura did show remorse,

...where?

 

[Hawk]

Is the constant attempting to kill self once she figures out how evil she has become not count?

APPARENTLY NOT.

 

[Deathwings]

You guys do realize that the way you hate Sakura is just as bad as the way Cherry Lover/Mike love her, right ? Extremes are bad, no matter the direction they are in.