Nasuverse Pactio in the Nasuverse

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#26
Who said I hate Sakura? She's a villain pure and simple, I just like her that way.

And SmileoftheKill, you're being stupid. Sakura does not a thing for her own redemption. This isn't arguable. She doesn't do it in either of her endings. In one she waits around on her own for a dead man. She doesn't make herself miserable because she wants to punish herself or make the world a better place to balance the scales of what she did. In her true end its worse. She settles down in classic example of 'I got mine, those people I just stomped over, well I'll work to forget that I did it and not care eventually.' Its a total bitch move and I like her for making it.

But she made it and it makes her a bad person. That isn't a question, it isn't arguable.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#27
Oh, that's alright then. It's just that sometime, peoples just get so much into their Sakura hating just to counter Mike that everything/everyones kind of lose...perspective. If you see what I mean. I have no idea how to express it otherwise.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#28
SmileOfTheKill said:
Is the constant attempting to kill self once she figures out how evil she has become not count?

APPARENTLY NOT.
What are you talking about? I don't remember anything like that.

I do remember her telling Shirou "Well, my sense of right and wrong isn't very good, so if I do something wrong, you have to decide that for me, okay?" though.

Deathwings... it's not that I hate Sakura, it's just that she's not, um, she's not the pure and noble gentle-hearted princess she sometimes gets portrayed as.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#29
Well daniel, you don't remember a lot of things.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#30
daniel_gudman said:
I vividly remember the moment I considered that... I think it was the 12th night... it was that one ero scene when Shirou was exhausted, he'd been out fighting after getting the arm transplanted, and when he got home he was like "I am so tired. I just want to sleep", and then Sakura was like "sexy tiem?" and he was "honey I'm tired, I have a headache", and Sakura was all "sexy tiem???" and then he was sayin' "let's go", and then the ero scene, man, that did not sound sexy. I felt like Nasu was trying to show me "dude stoked on Love Potion" without turning to the audience and directly telling me his brain was soaked with magic.

And then I remembered that Shirou had completely dropped the "Rider raped me in my dreams" thing. He didn't follow up, he didn't say a damn word to anyone about it, he didn't even think about it. I kept an eye peeled because I thought, guaranteed, that would bite Rider in the ass. And I thought how similar the descriptive language was between those two scenes.

And then I thought to myself, "I wonder if Rider left something behind that time."

Of if the materialization of Sakura's darkest, deepest desires did something to him after it swallowed him.

And then I thought about how scrupulously Shirou worked at not connecting the Shadow and Sakura, even when Archer was like, "I know you know".

After that, considering to the rest of the game where Shirou pounded his body so hard and suffered so much, how quickly he abandoned his dream for the sake of Sakura became... really, really suspicious.

So yeah, I seriously don't know whether Shirou was brainwashed by Rider or the Shadow.
OK, seriously?

You hate Sakura that much that you feel the need to invent excuses for Shirou falling in love with her...?

No, I don't really think she does.

I guess the thing is, we're divided over how much agency we think Sakura exerted over the Shadow.

You don't assign her any responsibility for her dark desires manifest... while I do.

And even then, even then... I think she's guilty of willful ignorance, like Shirou.

So no, when we get right down to it, post Heaven's Feel, I don't think Sakura deserves a happy ending. During that route, she crossed a moral line, from "victim" of Bad Magic to "abuser" of Bad Magic.
Again, this is just bullshit.

Sakura is not in any way a villain, and did not choose to do anything that happened in HF, and to blame her for it is extremely unfair.

ttestagr said:
Sakura places blame on herself for every person who died. She herself is of the opinion that she murdered dozens to hundreds of people. Then she puts it aside, settles down, and does nothing to show remorse for those actions. Despite feeling that she is to blame.

That alone makes her a bad person.
OK, seriously, what? Feeling bad for people dying that was not in any way your fault makes you a "bad person" now? If anything, the fact that she feels bad about it shows how good a person she is.

And, she does show remorse, she just refuses to let it crush her, because that would serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

What do you think she should have done? Commit suicide out of guilt? Lock herself in her room and refuse to enjoy life? What would that have achieved?

ttestagr said:
Who said I hate Sakura? She's a villain pure and simple, I just like her that way.
Well, you're still attacking her either way.

And SmileoftheKill, you're being stupid. Sakura does not a thing for her own redemption. This isn't arguable. She doesn't do it in either of her endings. In one she waits around on her own for a dead man. She doesn't make herself miserable because she wants to punish herself or make the world a better place to balance the scales of what she did.
How the hell do you know that she does nothing for her "redemption"? We see one day in her life, with no statement about what she does the rest of the time.

And, honestly, she has nothing to redeem herself for in the first damn place, IMO. The fact that she inherently feels guilty for things that are not her fault does not mean that she should punish herself for those things.

In her true end its worse. She settles down in classic example of 'I got mine, those people I just stomped over, well I'll work to forget that I did it and not care eventually.' Its a total bitch move and I like her for making it.
Seriously, what?

Where the hell are you getting this bullshit from? Sakura does not in any way take that attitude, and even if she did, she has fuck all to feel guilty about.

But she made it and it makes her a bad person.
Well, what would you say that a "good person" would have done there? Spent their entire life beating themselves up over something that wasn't their fault? What would that have achieved?

That isn't a question, it isn't arguable
Feeling arrogant, are we...?
 

Hawk

Well-Known Member
#31
Deathwings said:
Oh, that's alright then. It's just that sometime, peoples just get so much into their Sakura hating just to counter Mike that everything/everyones kind of lose...perspective. If you see what I mean. I have no idea how to express it otherwise.
Yeah, this.

I can honestly understand why some people will not like Sakura, but I can't understand the people in this thread that don't like her. Such unwarranted hate that it is the complete opposite of Cherry Lover is quite a accomplishment.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#32
Avider said:
Well daniel, you don't remember a lot of things.
As much as I'd like to say, "no, that's not true," it totally is.

I seriously don't remember there being even one scene where Sakura tried to commit suicide, or even expressed meaningful regret over all those people that died.

But it did take me like 40 hours to get through all three routes, so saying "I missed some content in those 40 hours" isn't impossible at all. Even if that was important content.

If somebody could point out where in the story this happened, or at least point me in that direction, than my view of the story--and the characters therein--would change because my understanding of the story would change.

...

Also, guys, please, stop simply dismissing what I'm saying as "character hate."

That "was Shirou being brainwashed"--by Rider--thing was a big question I had that seriously colored my whole interpretation, and I don't really feel like I got an answer from the story. It turned the Happy Ending upside down for me. It was a question mark that turned "True End" into "True(?) End". It's not an "excuse" I "invented" to explain why Shirou fell in love with Sakura. I wasn't bothered over Shirou loving Sakura, I was suspicious with how quickly he threw away his core ideal--the cornerstone of his personality--for the sake of that love. He threw away the one thing he cared about more than anything the first time he was presented with the challenge he knew was coming. And he didn't look back. Even if Shirou is distorted, it struck me as really unnatural.

"Why did Shirou change his mind so quickly and so completely?" is the biggest question I had after Heaven's Feel. Because it still existed I didn't experience catharsis, I didn't feel like the story was really over. I've got a couple hypothesis that answer that question, and "Rider altered his mind" is one of them.

Just because I don't adore Sakura, just because I think she is culpable for bad things that happened, doesn't mean I hate her with unyielding fury. That's assigning me the emotional depth of a cartoon.

And anyway, with the amount of decisions she made, Sakura's a lot closer to a McGuffin than a character. It's hard to hate someone that didn't do much.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#33
Well, my point was more that Mike bring the worse out of the peoples he argue with. He is kinda line LR that way.

Can't help you with that tough. HF is the route I have the least knowledge on. Tough, one interpretation, and I stress that it is a possible interpretation, is that Rider was manipulating Shirou's dream, not creating it out of whole clothe. There had to be something there for it to work, she just brought to the surface.

At least it's how I saw that scene. If there is something that openly contradict that interpretation that I missed, do tell me.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#34
daniel_gudman said:
Just because I don't adore Sakura, just because I think she is culpable for bad things that happened, doesn't mean I hate her with unyielding fury. That's assigning me the emotional depth of a cartoon.
Be prepared to see that a lot. It's the default position.

"You hate Sakura."

"She so nice, she mai waifu."

"Fuck you. It's not her fucking fault you fucking fucker. All responsibility for her actions lies on Shinji/Zouken/Spongebob."

On Sakura: welp, everyone has to weigh whether one life, unfair and harsh as it has been, is a fair trade for a few hundred innocent bystanders. Then decide if insanity and coercion defences mitigate mass-involuntary manslaughter/murder/whatever.

Then remember that this is fiction, take a deep breath, drink a cup of tea, calm thyself.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#35
OK, can we get back on topic, now?

If Rin still gets Archer, which is certainly not unlikely, given that she still has the gem, and she chooses to pactio with him, might her Artifact be the Jewel Sword Zelretch? If not, what might she get, instead?

If Archer is the Minister, what Artifact might he get?
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#36
That "was Shirou being brainwashed"--by Rider--thing was a big question I had that seriously colored my whole interpretation, and I don't really feel like I got an answer from the story.
That's something entirely of your own conception which have no meaningful basis in reality.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#37
Rider definitely did not brainwash Shirou. On that note, I feel dirty for agreeing with Avider.


Anyway, she certainly raped him, but as far as we see he never actually realized that it was her or even that it was real.

The thing with Shirou specifically, is he wanted to see everyone in his view smile. He specifically says that, and it goes into the childish dream of wanting to save everyone. Sacrificing some to save more is a compromise of that, something he could do as long as the situation was abstract enough not to hit him or he was the one sacrificing. Putting someone he knew, a friend for some time on the opposite side of the scale always had the potential to break him because it clashes so strongly with the original ideal. And note, only potential because Shirou also has the Mind of Steel choice where he doesn't break.

At the point he made the choice, Shirou was still close to his original ideal. He knew it wasn't going to happen, but he did want to save Sakura and everyone else. He tried as well, we see that with his patrols with Rin. It wasn't really until he chose to kill Saber that he irrevocably put the dream of saving everyone behind him.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#38
I'm sure there are other threads for this argument.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#39
Well, if it was Shirou being brainwashed, it wouldn't have held up what with his memories turning into swiss cheese.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#40
ttestagr said:
The thing with Shirou specifically, is he wanted to see everyone in his view smile. He specifically says that, and it goes into the childish dream of wanting to save everyone. Sacrificing some to save more is a compromise of that, something he could do as long as the situation was abstract enough not to hit him or he was the one sacrificing. Putting someone he knew, a friend for some time on the opposite side of the scale always had the potential to break him because it clashes so strongly with the original ideal.
Hmm...

when you put it like that, yeah, it resolves the contradiction that I was hung up on.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#41
My real problem with the whole Sakura situation is that peoples just don't look at it like they should.

They look at Sakura and they automatically see the monster she became in HF. And yet, was she a monster at the beginning of Fate/Stay Night ? No, she wasn't, hell she actually was the penultimate Woobie if there ever was one.

But noooooo, because she cracked in one possible timeline, she suddenly become a complete monster that need to suffer for its crime EVERY TIME. And yes, saying that "I won't save Sakura in this story" is pretty much condemning her to constant suffering until her death, even tough the version of Sakura is basically innocent of any crime since she isn't Dark Sakura.

That is what get to me. People are automatically biased and let their bias make the decision for them and THAT is bashing. You can dress it up any way you want, but it will never change that fact.

NOTE: This a generalized rant. This is not aimed at anybody on this forum in particular.
 
#42
yes She is the penultimate woobie ( and in one route she has AM as her evil powered side) but honestly? i couldn't care less about her, why? because i don't care about her character.
i mean if she gets 'saved' the YAY for her and the writer who remembered her and if she doesn't apear on the story? well as i said before i couldn't care less.
what bothers are some her supporters and detractors who spam the thread with 'reasons' of why she should be included/scraped from the plot or having her importance in the story agumented or diminished, because i came there for the original plot, not a wish fullfilment story.
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
#43
completely ignoring the rest of the thread, I'm going to just talk about the subject here.

So If pactios function like they do in the akamatsuverse, they are basically magic transfers between a mage/magic user/chi user/etc and their partner.


Now, given that, I think the only real option is with a mage acting as Magister and the partner the ministra. So say, Rin could bring up the idea to allow Shirou to transfer power to Saber, without going though the normal means.

Likewise, when him and Rin team up, Rin could pactio him, gaining the benefits of stuff like telepathy or strengthening Shirou for patrols/attacks.

Now, Artifacts seem to be something of significance or usefulness to the partner in question, so we have a bit of leway here. So for Shirou, I'm thinking ether a blade, a bow, or something from his adoptive father.

As for other partners, I dunno. I think Shinji coudl force Sakura to pactio him, just to steal more mana from her, or sakura could get pactios to Shirou, but i'm not sure why he would do that to her. shirou and Ilya could be interesting as well, as would tiger sensei fr lulz.
 
#44
Shirou's artifact (if it has some deep meaning to him and has nothing to do with his 'made of swords/blades' self) kiritsugu's anti-magus guns, especially if he made a pactio with the psycho saucy teen/young adult trapped in a loli body.
or a blade/bow made of blades.

and for the worm, well most of his problems come from a deep feeling of inferiority and envy so an arifact dealing with that, maybe?
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
#45
shioran toushin said:
Shirou's artifact (if it has some deep meaning to him and has nothing to do with his 'made of swords/blades' self) kiritsugu's anti-magus guns, especially if he made a pactio with the psycho saucy teen/young adult trapped in a loli body.
or a blade/bow made of blades.

and for the worm, well most of his problems come from a deep feeling of inferiority and envy so an arifact dealing with that, maybe?
Remember that the artifact, even if it has meaning/usefulness, said significance doesn't need to be known to the person who gets it. Yuna, for example, got a gun that was hinted to have been her Mother's, even though Yuna wasn't even aware her mother was involved with magic or even used a gun.

They can be pre-existing artifacts or entirely new ones, or even ones that shouldn't exist yet, like Chachamaru's orbital ion cannon.

Some ideas:

kiritsugu's anti-magus guns: like this idea a lot, would cause much confusion among those who had seen them in action before.

Sherwood: Bow inspired by the one used by Robbin Hod, always strikes true when used in the pursuit of justice.

Articenens: Bow belonging to the god Apollo.

praefectus vigilum: Sword, appears like that of a roman gladius. given it's name, it always sears or burns that which it strikes. Named after the leader of ancient Romes fire brigades and police.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#46
daniel_gudman said:
I was suspicious with how quickly he threw away his core ideal--the cornerstone of his personality--for the sake of that love. He threw away the one thing he cared about more than anything the first time he was presented with the challenge he knew was coming. And he didn't look back. Even if Shirou is distorted, it struck me as really unnatural.

"Why did Shirou change his mind so quickly and so completely?" is the biggest question I had after Heaven's Feel. Because it still existed I didn't experience catharsis, I didn't feel like the story was really over. I've got a couple hypothesis that answer that question, and "Rider altered his mind" is one of them.
In simple terms, he didn't "change his mind so quickly and completely". Saving Sakura was entirely compatible with his true ideal, and indeed was (IMO) more so than killing her would have been, at least in the early stages. After all, killing someone in cold blood is a damn odd way of "saving everybody"....

The reason he was so able to "throw away" Kiritsugu's ideal is because he's not Kiritsugu. He wants to make people happy, not to kill one to save many. And, Sakura's situation wasn't merely a "challenge", it was a body blow to his entire belief system, which relies on the idea that saving everyone (or, at least, trying to) is possible. Given that, refusing to kill her was entirely natural. And, then, it just developed from there.

trevelyan1983 said:
On Sakura: welp, everyone has to weigh whether one life, unfair and harsh as it has been, is a fair trade for a few hundred innocent bystanders.
Not really.

Whether or not you consider saving her to be the "right decision" in hindsight is entirely independant from whether it was the "right decision" based on what they knew at the time. Further, even if it wasn't the "right decision", that does not mean that Sakura does not deserve a happy ending once it has been made. She is not at fault, and "punishing" her will not bring back the people who died.

Then decide if insanity and coercion defences mitigate mass-involuntary manslaughter/murder/whatever.
They do in any remotely civilised country....

Sakura did nothing that any other person would not have done in her situation (and with her powers, of course...), except perhaps last far longer than she could reasonably be expected to have. Therefore, it is not fair to blame her for what happened. She was not sane as Dark Sakura, and she was not in control of the shadow at all. She is no more to blame for those deaths than you would be if someone took control of your body and forced you to kill people against your will.

Antimatter said:
sakura could get pactios to Shirou, but i'm not sure why he would do that to her.
Why wouldn't he? It's not like she'd object....
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
#47
Cherry_lover said:
Antimatter said:
sakura could get pactios to Shirou, but i'm not sure why he would do that to her.
Why wouldn't he? It's not like she'd object....
It's more a plot justification. He'd need her to be on the front line for something, or otherwise need a reason to give her a magical power boost or make use of the pactios other benefits (telepathy, teleportation, outfit storage, etc).

Switching gears, lets talk about artifacts for say, Saber:

Bredbeddle's Girdle: From Gawain and the green knight. Allows Saber to recover from a mortal blow, regardless of said injuries extent. To balance this, it has a cooldown of sorts of several days.

i'm sure there is something more Nasuverse to give her though.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#48
*sigh* Are you guys even reading Charon's OP ? This idea run on the fact that it ISN'T the Magister that provide the power boost. The power boost is draw directly from the kaleidoscope and it amplitude is determined by the level of /trust/friendship/love between the two contractors.
 

MinusMagnus

Well-Known Member
#49
Wich mean that "normal" magi (can that classification be aplied to any named character?) very little and probably deem the ritual a waste of time while rare specimens like Shirou get nice things like the spare key to the Gate of Babilon if they get lucky.
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
#50
Deathwings said:
*sigh* Are you guys even reading Charon's OP ? This idea run on the fact that it ISN'T the Magister that provide the power boost. The power boost is draw directly from the kaleidoscope and it amplitude is determined by the level of /trust/friendship/love between the two contractors.
Read the thread before commenting? Surely you jest.

A pactio is, when it comes down to it, really just a power transfer between two things with a soul, which comes with fringe benefits.

Now, this all sounds like a bi-directional pactio based on the contractees feelings for each other. I'd almost think the bi-directionality could be a bit overpowered. In negima it's always the stronger mana source to the weaker, or so it appears. One is the shield for the other's attacks.

The feelings thing sorta falls in line with Negima's rendition, where pactio partners are often also candidates for romance. No real issues there.

So in the end, i'm understanding the events like this:

Mage reads Negima, notices the parallels between ministra.magister and servant/master.

Notes that is would, in effect, allow you to make a servant out of anything with a soul, with an artifact based on that person somehow.

Mage recreates the system, using the stick's mechanics.

Rin somehow learns of this, and creates one with Shirou/between shirou and saber/etc.
 
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