[Pathfinder/3.5] Adventure Caravans

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#1
After a conversation with some friends about how various spells - arcane and divine - could be used to benefit economically from them, instead of just purely combative uses.
And influenced by my playing Fallout New Vegas a lot, I came to wonder if a campaign best described as "Adventure Caravans" would be doable.


1.) The players start as caravan guards/hired hands/low to mid-level in the campaign hierarchy
2.) They work their way up to actually owning the caravan (should happen around level 2-3 at the latest, 'cos it's the fun part)
3.) Establish and negotiate trade routes for first their own caravan, then other caravans running in their name
4.) Renovate an abandoned trade post that is strategically well-placed, but just too far out for NPCs to renovate and make it their player hub
5.) Soon afterwards, start to actually build a city


Between arcane casters with spells like <a href='http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fabricate' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Fabricate </a>and skill ranks in, say, weaponsmithing (creating masterwork rapiers out of steel in an instant to sell at profits) and a Bard with a <a href='http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lyre-of-building' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Lyre of Building</a> (sing sing sing for 4800 man-hours of work per hour), they could make a city of splendour in time.
Using Decanters of Endless Water as their city's water eternally fresh water supply, circumventing much of the setting's inconsistencies about ubiquitous magics yet eternally-low populations - this entire idea was sparked when I read Cheliax, Empire of Devils, and saw that Egarian itself only had 82000 citizens - in the process.
Doing that - and other unconventional uses of magical items that savvy players would inevitably spring on whoever I could convince to GM this - would be pretty much it. Build first your trade empire, then an actual empire.

Sources I drew inspiration from when I cooked up this idea:
1.) Fallout: New Vegas (Caravan-running in dangerous environments)
2.) Traveller (Trading for fun and profit; I love the Speculative Trade section)
3.) IRC discussions with friends about the ridiculousness of some spells (re: Stone Wall, to fortify your trade outpost in no time at all) and artefacts (Decanters, to circumvent the necessity to guard your wells)


If you have any suggestions - such as potentially powerful/cool/ridiculous combinations of spells, magic items and/or both, general setting suggestions (should it be desert-ish? Plains? European heartland-like? etc etc.) or anything you believe is relevant to this, be a champ and drop your suggestion here. :)
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#2
You're not the first person to come up with this idea, and if you look at some third-party materials you'll find a lot more spells and magic items that can be used in this fashion.

Personally, I'm all for people trying to shift the focus of 3.5/Pathfinder away from "killing things and taking their stuff" since I'm of the opinion that the game has greater applicability than that, as well as the robustness to be utilized in alternative manners.

Having said that, it sounds like you're looking into situations wherein the players acquire some sort of magic that gives them an economic edge over non-magical laborers and sit back and collect a fortune. By itself, there's nothing wrong with that, but any GM in such a scenario will find that the PCs are quickly accumulating a game-breaking amount of wealth.

There are ways to stop this from happening, though. Here are a few ideas:

1) Politics - A given city/country/region has laws that protect various guilds and tradesmen, meaning that it's illegal for PCs to just go in and start stealing their business. These organizations have a vested interest in not using these items, since they put their people out of work and, as a consequence, hurt the local economy. Constructing a building is a long process that employs a number of people. One guy doing it in an hour with a lyre of building is that much less work for everybody else.

2) Environmental conservation - Druids and other nature-worshipers would likely have a problem with someone using a decanter of endless water to change the local ecosystem. For every barren desert that people consider to be a blight, there's a druid that considers it to be pristine and beautiful. Add in to this local monsters that don't want their home destroyed, nature-loving fey, etc. and you've got a big problem.

3) Monsters - Even beyond displaced creatures, monsters are a problem. New construction can quickly become a home to gargoyles; new influxes of people are a great opportunity for doppelgangers. Masses of humanity make enough filth to satisfy otyughs. And these are the least among monstrous worries. Add in demons that enjoy causing chaos among the massed people, vampires preying on the transient population, and local dragons that decide that there's enough of a populace to pay them tribute, to name a few, and you've got bad situations brewing.

4) Thieves - Characters who become rich will also become famous, and that's sure to attract those who want to relieve them of their wealth. Whether they want their magic items or the gold they've earned, the PCs will likely become recurring targets for thieves. This need not be thugs trying to bash them over the head or silent cat burglars either. Local outfits might demand a tribute; and so might churches to non-good gods of commerce, evil gods of thievery, etc.

In other words, the PCs shouldn't be allowed to just sit back and become tycoons from their building projects. The GM should always make sure that the PCs are challenged in what they do, whether it's in combat or economics.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#3
A fifth way to deal with that is to create money sinks. Every successful MMO has at least three different ways to sink high tier PC wealth.

Since most people who would be interested in such a game would be of the RPing variety, and are thus, like me, in love with the notion that they are actually having an impact on the gaming world, I would strongly recommed the Stronghold Builders Guide (3.5 D&D suppliment). It contains detailed instructions on absolutely everything you could possibly need to construct any sort of stronghold you desire, from a classic wizard tower to a more mundane medival castle to an enchanted flying fortress. It contains price sheets for servants, details on enchanted objects and effects that can be built into or purchased for the stronghold (such as wells fueled by ever-flowing ewers, fireplaces lit by permanency cast fire magic, cupboards that provide daily Heroes Feasts, and various blanket effects such as hallow), and a cell-based grid system that allows for a completely customizable setup.

Even better, it is in line with your idea, because the SBG includes discounts and additional advantages that PCs can get when constructing their stronghold. If they have access to an undead workforce, they get a discount because they have free labor; if they have befriended dwarves, they get a similar discount, and the stronghold gets additional bonuses for being dwarven made, and so forth, and so on.

Not only would the SBG fit in with your idea, but it provides the additional benefits of:

-Creating a concrete base of operations around which the PCs can base their operations. A small compound could transform into a castle, which could in turn have a village spring up around it, which could in turn, if the PCs are prosperous enough at their trading and exploration, evolve further into a city, and perhaps even a metropolis.

-Having a stronghold provides a wealth sink that is as large as you allow it to be. The SBG contains pricings on everything from the building materials used to the pay of the labor forces and the wages of servants and guards, and none of it is cheap. Combined with constant expansions and additions, along with some GM-based fiat of channeling the wealth into the surrounding village (building libraries and churches, paving roads, setting up inns and shopping districts to channel in travelers and improve commerce), there is no reason for a glut of wealth to ever become a problem. For every new breakthrough in revenue your PCs make, you can add yet another way for them to spend that wealth in ways that impacts the gaming world. Build the castle taller (and deeper, if they desire). Expand the walls. Raise the towers. Polish up the village. Make it into a town. Transform the town into a city. Host parties and lavish balls where your PCs entertain the nobility. Entice merchants from exotic lands to bring their goods for trade. Build up the harbor. Construct a fleet of merchant ships to explore new trade routes, and a fleet of cutters to protect them. Finance and construct an army to protect the land from monsters and foreign plots. Entice mighty heroes and powerful wizards to take up residence in your lands. The PCs can build an empire from nothing, and one day may even crown themselves as kings.

The possibilities are limitless.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#4
Lord Raine said:
I would strongly recommed the Stronghold Builders Guide (3.5 D&D suppliment).
Forgive the nitpick, but the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook is a 3.0 supplement.
 

Gwyll

Well-Known Member
#5
Caravans would cost plenty of gold for upkeep, and depending on GM might not be profitable for too long on the same route. If there is nobody official behind the players, they might have problems getting enough trade goods, they might have to pay high taxes/bribes, and might even have problems selling their goods.

About the fabricate spell: I would require any player with a craft skill to practice his trade, and I would expect any wizard that plans on creating any detailed item to at least create it once without magic, or face very high DCs.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#6
Fuck upkeep. Think like a player, and not like a math jocky. Would you rather sink your wealth into a bunch of arbitrary character taxes, or would you prefer to sink it into a giant magical castle that you custom built that is situated in the middle of a giant magical city that exists because of your merchantile prowess?

Let's see. We could pay a bunch of random taxes loosely based off of IRL to keep our massive hills of gold down to size. Or I could help my fellow PCs finance and construct a city-state where we get to be Lords Mayor from our kickass magical castle. HMM. WHICH WOULD I PREFER TO DO.

Don't get so caught up in the bookkeeping that you forget that you're supposed to be having fun.

As for item creation, raising the DCs is counterproductive. I would favor implimenting a rolling reduction in the DC if the character has made an item of that type recently (like, say, in the past month or so). This could encourage players to make a lot of (from their perspective) more mundane items, so that they have that sweet little bonus when they get around to making that Holy Shocking Burst Longsword they've been thinking about. This has the additional benefit of meaning that the PCs have a steady supply of items for them to sell on the 'off days' between adventuring. They constantly make a bunch of mundane stuff, which gives them the lower DC, which they then sell for a profit, and then they use that gold and lower DC to make much better stuff, which they then use when they raid a dungeon to acquire greater magic and materials to make things with. It's a constant system that feeds itself.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#7
For what it's worth, Paizo just released the <a href='http://paizo.com/store/games/roleplayingGames/p/pathfinderRPG/paizo/pathfinderAdventurePath/jadeRegent/v5748btpy8mh3' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Jade Regent Adventure Path Player's Guide</a> - a free download (though you need to register an account) - that, among other things, has caravan rules (as well as relationship rules).

It's also worth noting that the third-parties are jumping on this one rather quickly, and the first supplement, <a href='http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=94203' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Trade Routes: Expanded Caravan Rules Sourcebook</a>, just came out.
 

zerohour

Well-Known Member
#8
Alzrius said:
1) Politics - A given city/country/region has laws that protect various guilds and tradesmen, meaning that it's illegal for PCs to just go in and start stealing their business. These organizations have a vested interest in not using these items, since they put their people out of work and, as a consequence, hurt the local economy. Constructing a building is a long process that employs a number of people. One guy doing it in an hour with a lyre of building is that much less work for everybody else.
Keep in mind that the wealth system of D&D is the silver piece. We generally don't care about that because PCs are generally about looting treasure which is gold piece standard at a minimum.

So since a person makes about one silver piece per day, a lyre represents about 130,000 days of labor, or 1,040,000 hours of unskilled work, which is a lot more than the 4800 hours the lyre produces.


Then again, it's been awhile, so my math/grasp of D&D prices could be way off. Plus, the rule of fun is in play.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#9
zerohour said:
Keep in mind that the wealth system of D&D is the silver piece. We generally don't care about that because PCs are generally about looting treasure which is gold piece standard at a minimum.

So since a person makes about one silver piece per day, a lyre represents about 130,000 days of labor, or 1,040,000 hours of unskilled work, which is a lot more than the 4800 hours the lyre produces.


Then again, it's been awhile, so my math/grasp of D&D prices could be way off. Plus, the rule of fun is in play.
I believe you're referring to the notation under the "Untrained" header of the <a href='http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Profession</a> skill that says that untrained laborers earn a silver piece per day for their work.

I'm not sure that necessarily makes it a standard, since most NPCs who aren't adventurers will likely spend at least one of their few skill points on Profession - but I can understand that way of looking at it.

I suppose it's similar to the difference between someone who earns minimum wage in their job, and someone who earns a living wage.
 
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