Naruto Project Sayumayu Discussion Thread

#26
Man Daneel, just been wondering but power-wise just where do the gods stand? I'm not too sure about plot relevance but it is something that has been scratching at me.

For example I believe you've earlier said that the only reason Void Kyuubi don't get given SDA's is because Inari can't give SDA's that he himself does not possess, so does that mean he's capable of wielding Creation, Destruction and Existence at the same level as Kougon or Yuria? Or is he similar in power to the Sage?

Anyways, pointless blabbering from me aside, it'd be nice if I could find some answers to that question.
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#27
The only suitable Void SDA would be Voidwalker, and Inari-ookami is not a Voidwalker. That's Sayoko's shtick.

Gods fill the whole spectrum of power levels. There are those an Academy graduate could beat, and there are those that can beat Kyuubi as easily as Sayoko did.
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#28
What D&D alignment would the main characters and antagonists fall under?

(My guess would be: Kougon: Lawful Neutral; Sayuri: Chaotic Neutral, later Chaotic Evil; Fubuki: Neutral Evil; Naruto: Chaotic Good (Edit: later Chaotic Neutral?); Yuri: Lawful Evil; Sayoko: Lawful Neutral; Yuria: Chaotic Neutral)
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#29
Kitsune are weird in that, while naturally predisposed towards chaos, they unconsciously follow an unwritten code of conduct (the "Kitsune Way") and assembled an (admittedly very flawed) political institution in the form of the Council of Great Clans. So you'd be hard-pressed to find a truly Chaotic youko in this setting. The only example I can think of would be, of course, Sayuri.

Naruto: Chaotic Good
Sayuri: Chaotic Evil (albeit not consciously)
Mayuri: Neutral Good

Yuri: Lawful Evil
Himeyuri: Lawful Neutral
Chiyuri: Neutral Good
Yurie: Chaotic Insane?
Yurine: Neutral Good
Yurina: Lawful Good
Yuriyo: Neutral Good
Yurisa: Lawful Good
Yuriko: True Neutral
Yuria: Neutral Good
Yurimi: Lawful Neutral

Kotonoha: Lawful Neutral
Kokoro: True Neutral
Sayoko: Lawful Neutral
Setsuna: Lawful Evil (a diametrical opposite to Naruto, of course)

Kougon: Lawful Neutral (Lawful Good?)
Akihiko/Amane/Hakuya: Lawful Neutral
Takako: Lawful Good
Takato: Chaotic Good

Fubuki: Neutral Evil
Kanna/Kamui: Lawful Evil
Urue: Chaotic Evil
Chachamaru: Lawful Good

Utahime: Lawful Evil
Fumi/Aika: Lawful Good

Tetsumaru: True Neutral
Kujira: True Neutral
Byakuren: Lawful Evil
Ryuusan: Neutral Evil
Shizuku: Lawful Evil
Issen: Lawful Neutral
Hayate: Neutral Evil
Sengoku: Neutral Evil

Naia: Obscenely Chaotic and Utterly Insane

Note that there is not a single Good character among the clan leaders. That's because, in this setting (and in most settings), being a good person while in a position of power is hard. But naturally, a character being "Evil" does not make him a villain. Hell, Sayuri's the little sister character. On the other hand, the "Good" characters above have one thing in common: they're all young, if only mentally. Except for Chachamaru, who is allowed to be an eight-tailed Lawful Good youkai because fuck you, she's awesome like that.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#30
Daneel Rush said:
Except for Chachamaru, who is allowed to be an eight-tailed Lawful Good youkai because fuck you, she's awesome like that.
We really need to meet that girl. Which reminds me, when Yuria, Mayuri and Sayuri were having their last stands in the doomed timeline, where was Chachamaru?
 
#31
Pretty sure Daneel said we were fine to think of her as dead for all intents and purposes at that point, whether this is him wanting to save her introduction for later or whether she was truly dead is up to discussion, but since Future!Naruto didn't give her a little dream-/world seems to point toward her death. Considering there was a whole day she had to protect the world herself, it isn't a surprise that she is in fact dead, those things from beyond are fucking relentless after all.
 
#32
Hayate and Sengoku are Neutral Evil. I wonder if their personalities are reminiscent of Fubuki? And as for Utahime being Lawful Evil, to me this was actually somewhat unexpected given how she has been portrayed so far. But I guess she's gotta do what she's gotta do when it comes down to crunch time.

And regarding Chachamaru: absolutely, yes! Would love to discover more information about her. Given what we know about the rest of Kuromiya, she sounds like a diamond in the rough.
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#33
knight504 said:
Daneel Rush said:
Except for Chachamaru, who is allowed to be an eight-tailed Lawful Good youkai because fuck you, she's awesome like that.
We really need to meet that girl. Which reminds me, when Yuria, Mayuri and Sayuri were having their last stands in the doomed timeline, where was Chachamaru?
His answer to that was 'feel free to assume that she was dead'.
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#34
Another question, even if I'm already the one with the most questions in this topic.

Is manifesting the purest form of an Aeon, like Sayuri forming the White Flame, something that takes humongous amounts of Chakra? Or is it as natural as breathing?

Speaking of which: ARE there similar manifestations for Aeons other than Destruction? If so, what are they like?

Edit: and another: what would a sane Mayuri do if she went to another universe and met Wilbur Whateley? (LOL. I just had to ask that.)
 
#35
I have a couple of questions if you're able to answer them?

1. Regarding the Pinnacle of Systematic Mastery that are granted to a Kyuubi by Inari. I can sort of hazard a rough guess for some types, but I'm especially curious as to what it would mean for a Ghost or Sound Kitsune when they gain the ninth tail. Any chance you can reveal this?

2. SaSa. Yeah... I'm convinced Sayoko is one Sa. If so, would I be on the right track in assuming Kuromiya no Sareihou is the other? And a possible mate?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#36
Hadn't checked this topic in a while. Let's see...

1) When Inari gives the PoSM, he simply says, "alright, you got the ninth tail, and a cool new power comes with it". He does not decide what power you get; that depends only on which Aeon you are most connected to. If you're strongly connected to Destruction, like Sayuri, you get Kakuton. If you're more connected to Existence, you get Chiton. If you are more connected to Creation, well, nobody knows. Kougon, for example, got the "Body of Light". His father could animate the inanimate to a certain degree. The Vagrant Sovereign could create matter from chaos simply by speaking. With the aid of her Grand Chorus, she could even create alien objects from other dimensions and realities, even without the need to actually comprehend what she was pulling into her reality (which was basically the reason she had to be put down). Creative potential is virtually limitless, and thus possible manifestations of the Aeon, even at the basest level, cannot be listed.

2) Inari created pairs of brothers and sisters, husbands and wives. Indeed, every single kitsune in existence is a descendant of those 24 (including Time kitsune; there are not "pure" Time kitsune, you see). The original 24 split their noble names equally among their children. Every Void kitsune carries the blood of Sareihou and Sayoko. They were indeed SaSa, and together standardized Kuuton and left the Codex of the Void as the most valuable legacy for their offspring. However, no amount of love between them could prevent the schism between the nascent families of Kuromiya and Kurosaki. As I already explained, one reason was their different philosophies of how the Void should be wielded. The other reason was their opposite positions on the matter of Tamamo no Mae's refusal to mate with her brother-husband. This would eventually lead to the first great war of kitsune, which gradually degraded to "Tamamo no Mae and Kurosaki no Sayoko versus everybody else", and ended when Tamamo no Mae punched everyone.

Then the gods descended to chastise the kitsune for their rampaging and tearing apart the world. So Tamamo punched them too.

Then the Sun itself descended from her highest throne in Takagamahara to chastise youko and gods for killing so many of her precious humans as collateral damage. She was punched.

And that was when absolutely everybody realized that perhaps they should just let Tamamo no Mae do whatever she wanted. It wasn't like there weren't plenty of ladies ready and eager to mate with her brother, anyway.
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#37
AoMythology said:
Another question, even if I'm already the one with the most questions in this topic.

Is manifesting the purest form of an Aeon, like Sayuri forming the White Flame, something that takes humongous amounts of Chakra? Or is it as natural as breathing?

Speaking of which: ARE there similar manifestations for Aeons other than Destruction? If so, what are they like?

Edit: and another: what would a sane Mayuri do if she went to another universe and met Wilbur Whateley? (LOL. I just had to ask that.)
Alright, time for a thought experiment.

We work under the assumption that chakra, like all energy, can be quantized. What we call "raw chakra" is thus an aggregation of innumerable quanta of chakra. These quanta come in four different forms, which we'll call C, E, D and N. Most creatures and things have only the first three types, and so does their "raw chakra", which is then a mixture of these three types of quanta at whatever ratio one's body naturally develops. In fact, a perfect mixture of equal parts C, E and D is extremely rare, as most creatures have a natural bias towards one of the three.

"Nature recomposition", then, is the "refinement" of one's "raw chakra" into a ratio that matches a specific "System" and given a specific form by conscious will. For example (and this is really just an example pulled out of my ass, not actual setting material; I didn't go around juggling numbers when I designed this setting), let's say a "Fire jutsu" requires chakra with at least 70% D-quanta. However, "Jinton jutsu" may require at least 65%. So if it came to just "refining" the ratio of quanta in one's chakra, any Katon user should be able to use Jinton as well (which, in the Sayumayu setting, is true). The reason there are far less Jinton users than Katon users is that "Molecular disassembly by microscopic application of erosional forces" is a far more complex expression of the underlying principle of "Destruction" than "Fire", so it is just as complex to command your mixture of C, E and D quanta to do precisely that.

Note that this means that, for people like Sayuri, who are so attuned to a specific Aeon than their "raw chakra" already has a majority of a given type of quantum, unleashing basic manifestations of that Aeon is a matter of pure will. Sayuri's raw chakra is already at a suitable ratio for "Fire", so she just has to will it to "do firey stuff".

So for example, let's say Sasuke the Genin uses a Grand Fireball Technique (GBT), which costs a hypothetical "10 units of chakra". It's a fire jutsu, so (if we use the bullshit numbers from earlier) 7 of those 10 units will be D-quanta. Those are D-quanta which come from Sasuke's own body, so it could happen that, if he goes pyro-happy, he might run out of GBTs even before he runs out of chakra, simply because he's out of D.

Which leads to the White Flame. This is the purest manifestation of "Destruction" in Reality. This means, of course, >99% D-quanta. Basically, a Great Fireball Technique made of White Flame would still cost "10 units of chakra", of which at least 9.9 are D-quanta. So a hypothetical Sasuke that could use the White Flame would run out of White Flame GBTs even faster.

This could easily lead to another ramble on "what makes Sayuri special, then?", but this post is already long enough.
 
#38
Well I have to say this wasn't what I expected. My theories were nowhere close to your explanation. It almost raises more questions than answers, but this is a good thing!

Tamamo sounds awesome, who was her brother and supposed husband?
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#39
Am I correct to assume that Kakuton is connected to Creation rather closely? On the other hand, from what I've seen, any complex System that involves Existence (Fuuton or Doton) leans towards the other type heavily (so Scorch Release and Lava Release would be almost as 'pure' as Katon and Mokuton-Hyouton are connected mainly to Creation).

So, does a System connected to Existence in a fusion of Systems simply enhance the other component?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#40
1) Kakuton can involve both nuclear fission (Destruction) and fusion (Creation). Our Sayuri mostly uses fission, and only uses fusion to channel the energy released in nuclear fusion to produce greater explosive power, in the same way nuclear bombs use a small fission process to kick start a larger fusion process. The Sayuri from the other timeline focused on the truly creative aspect of nuclear fusion, nucleosynthesis, and learned all other expressions of Creation (such as Mokuton) from there.

2) You are right, but this is as much as limitation of chakra users as it is a limitation of the Systems themselves. It's connected to the fact that "Creation" and "Destruction" are active processes. Jutsu users can enhance such processes through complex Systems because it is simply easier for intelligent minds to conceive the idea of creating/destroying more/better/more efficiently/whatever. How do you exist "more" or "less"? You either exist or not (the most obvious answer would perhaps be "by having more mass").

Enhancing Existence is the exclusive purview of Chiton, and it demands a degree of understanding of reality itself and what Existence means and entails. Tamamo no Mae was no mere punching idiot. Kurosaki Sayoko has spent millennia reaching for the physical and metaphysical grasp of Reality Tamamo no Mae achieved through punching things and meditating on the punch, the puncher and the punched (punchee?).
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#41
The more I hear about Tamamo no Mae, the more I like her. :D

About Kakuton: yes, I meant that it ALWAYS involves some Creation, judging by the fact that Sayuri wanted to abandon it.

Edit: Does Tamamo no Mae being one of the original Kitsune mean that no (truly) 'pure' Kitsune of one of the types was ever born? Also, which type was she? Wind?

Edit2: If Chakra quanta are aligned to one of the Aeons and Yin Chakra both tends towards the destructive aspect of a person and is good for illusions, won't an illusionary jutsu connected to the Kouton System need plenty of Creation-aligned Yin Chakra? Isn't that an oxymoron? Or are you going to revise Yin and Yang in this setting?
 
#42
Pretty sure in the kitsune creation snippet Tamamo was the name of one the two first Ocean Kitsue. n
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#43
Never mind that about Yin and Yang. I read it again, and Yin has more to do with manipulation when at reasonable ratios.

I do have another question, though. If Kuchiyose and its derived jutsu are Space-Time Manipulation, shouldn't they be outside the Four Aeons (like Mayuri's abilities) instead of Existence?

The last one for a while: are you setting up Kougon to become a Shintai of Creation? I'm asking because with his level of skill and power, he's rather lackluster for such an important antagonist. Also, it seems to me that both Sayoko and you (in pbworks) are implying that he will grow in character and skills. (Of course, the fact that no Youkai has been mentioned that was a Shintai of Creation and only the Sage from humans helps. I would love to see Kougon creating things from (almost) nothing, adding and recreating concepts and possibly using something like the Flame of Destruction - hmm, Light of the Stars?)
 
#44
Last snipped made me wonder, just how many tails does each great clan head have? Other than the ones that have had their number of tails explained that is:L.

Also have couple of questions which are also to do with the great clans, how many kitsune are in each clan? And we know that Nagashirakawa and Kinoshita are the two weakest, as well as that Kuromiya and Shinkirou are the two strongest, with Shionzaki below them; but what are the general strengths of the other clans?

Eh, not really that curious about that anymore and we might get that information later anyway. What I really wonder about is Naruto's three sizes!
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#45
Is Nue's Utsusemi anything like the Truth-Seeking Balls of canon?

(He had Oiroke no jutsu's three sizes on pbworks, but I think he took them down now.)
 
#46
Guessing Sayoko annihilated her own ability to die, making it a world where she can't die. It's the only explanation I can think of for the random coincidences that cause the failure of every single suicide attempt she's made.
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#47
Futon Lord said:
Guessing Sayoko annihilated her own ability to die, making it a world where she can't die. It's the only explanation I can think of for the random coincidences that cause the failure of every single suicide attempt she's made.
Nah, it's probably the Void itself that wants her not to die, or the Silver Key. Maybe both.

Edit: we could say it's the Rule of Funny, since it's played for laughs.
 
#48
Yeah, can't rule out the silver key. That's connected to manipulation of the dream, so it might be responsible.
Though Rule of Funny can't be ruled out, things played for laughs in this world sometimes have unfunny explanations...
 

AoMythology

Apparently a report-er
#49
Futon Lord said:
Yeah, can't rule out the silver key. That's connected to manipulation of the dream, so it might be responsible.
Though Rule of Funny can't be ruled out, things played for laughs in this world sometimes have unfunny explanations...
It was hard enough for Sayoko to nullify Kougon's capability to win, I can't imagine her constantly nullifying something as fundamental as the ability of a living being to die.
 

atlas_hugged

Well-Known Member
#50
AoMythology said:
Futon Lord said:
Yeah, can't rule out the silver key. That's connected to manipulation of the dream, so it might be responsible.
Though Rule of Funny can't be ruled out, things played for laughs in this world sometimes have unfunny explanations...
It was hard enough for Sayoko to nullify Kougon's capability to win, I can't imagine her constantly nullifying something as fundamental as the ability of a living being to die.
It wouldn't necessarily be a constant thing though.  Once the void eats something, it's gone, as I understand it.  You don't have to do anything to keep it gone.  So if somehow, the entire concept of her dying, her mortality, was eaten, then she's immortal for life, with no further effort on her part needed. 

If I had to guess, I'd say that in a fight long past, she tried to get clever with the void to stay alive.  Maybe she tried to feed it only her mortality for the next hour, and it took all of her mortality. Just as an example.
 
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