Nasuverse Regarding Tracing

[loirit]

Projection is Projection is Projection. Shirou's understanding and skill varies from route to route but it's the same magecraft.

The 5%/90% numbers were something daniel just made up to illustrate a point; i.e. Shirou sucks at things a lot more than Archer.

Caliburn moving on 'its own' is likely an example of him using the skill of the blade's wielder, albeit unconsciously.

It doesn't happen in the Shirou vs Gil fight, because the weapons from the Gate of Babylon are not Noble Phantasms, but "Prototypes of the Noble Phantasms" - in other words, the weapons before they were used by other people and became famous, so no skills to copy.

I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine replicating the wielder's skill comes under the "Reproducing the accumulated years" step.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Huh. You're right. Damn, I've thought for ages that the 5%-90% figures were from a supplementary material. I must have been misremembering them from the last time I read this thread almost 2 years ago.

So Shirou's regular tracing isn't skilled enough to accurately reproduce the accumulated years, meaning he only gets a degree of the wielder's skill, but his "pull from the hill" method perfectly reproduces the blade along with accumulated history, it's just that none of Gil's blades had any significant memory of being wielded.

So that does mean that a Shirou who could pull Gae Bolg, Berserker's rock sword, or Kojirou's Monohoshizao "from the hill" would be able to use Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death, 9 Lives Blade Works, or Tsubame Gaeshi, right? Although the latter 2 would probably leave Shirou's arms completely messed up afterwards unless he drastically improved his reinforcement.

 

[loirit]

The quality of Shirou's projections is based on how well he can visualize. 'Pull from the hill' is just a figure of speech, it's (probably) referencing how Shirou is aware of UBW.

I have no proof, but my headcanon is that Shirou's Projection is the same mystery every else uses, he just has much more detailed images than anyone else because of UBW. Remember, an aria is just self-hypnosis.

As for the special moves:

Gae Bolg's heart-seeking attack is its power as a Noble Phantasm, not a skill of Cu Chulainn. Whether he can use it depends on whether he can afford the prana cost - it's possible, especially seeing as how Gae Bolg's thurst attack is supposed to be extremely cheap for a NP.

We know he can use Nine Lives, though even with Archer's arm it was "beyond his limits" and doing so will damage him.

Tsubame Gaeshi is a toss-up, though canonically speaking I would lean towards no. It's the Second True Magic, and Shirou has shown how well he understands that when he projected Jeweled Sword Zelretch.

If you're asking whether he can do it as of the end of UBW - maybe? He didn't while fighting Archer and Gilgamesh, but it's not implausible that he could have absorbed the knowledge of how to do so from Archer.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Well, the pull from the hill method would just be Shirou tracing when more aware of his RM, yes. I'm just calling it that to distinguish between the two. I do think that post-UBW route Shirou probably could trace without consciously accessing the record stored within his RM if he wanted to, though. It's just that he has no real reason to want to produce an inferior version.

And you know, I'm not sure Shirou even has a copy of Monohoshizao within his RM at the end of UBW route. I'm pretty sure he didn't know Kojiro's identity, the name of the blade, or the Tsubame Gaeshi technique. He bypassed Assassin the 1st time he went to the temple, thanks to Caster's body-jacking, and the second time Saber fought him while Shirou passed him. I'm not sure Shirou ever got a good look at the blade.

 

[loirit]

He does see Monohoshizao in UBW - see Fall down, your mind on day 6.

 

[daniel_gudman]

Tsubame Gaeshi is a toss-up, though canonically speaking I would lean towards no. It's the Second True Magic, and Shirou has shown how well he understands that when he projected Jeweled Sword Zelretch.

Pretty sure Sasaki Kojirou didn't know jack about the Second either, dood just wanted to cut a bird.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

He does see Monohoshizao in UBW - see Fall down, your mind on day 6.

I stand corrected. He does see the sword, and sees it used against Archer.

 

[loirit]

Pretty sure Sasaki Kojirou didn't know jack about the Second either, dood just wanted to cut a bird.

Eh. That's true, I just kind of figured something like: Shirou can't understand the Second Magic > Tsubame Gaeshi is the Second Magic > Shirou can't understand Tsubame Gaeshi.

 

[Deathwings]

Gae Bolg's heart-seeking attack is its power as a Noble Phantasm, not a skill of Cu Chulainn. Whether he can use it depends on whether he can afford the prana cost - it's possible, especially seeing as how Gae Bolg's thurst attack is supposed to be extremely cheap for a NP.

Wrong. Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death is a technique that was created bu Cu Chulainn himself. Remember, Gae Bolg is actually a later incarnation of the spear Gungnir, as its second attack, Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death, is identical to Gungnir's The Declaration of the Elder God. Gungnir does not allow the use of Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death, ergo it was a technique created by a later wielder, Cu Chulainn.

 

[loirit]

Ah, that's true, my bad. The point stands about prana cost though, since we know it's prana cost is double-digits and could still be out of Shirou's range.