Naruto Rereading the Manga

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#1
Exactly what it sounds like. I've been rereading sections of the manga, and I've found some really interesting things. Some of which shed light on some of the questions and debates we've had in the past, and some of which seem to have gone totally forgotten.

So, this is what I ran across today.


Naruto's Breakthrough: The Rasengan

Fanon has popularized the idea that ramen has a connection with . This is mostly because a number of fics ran with the idea that Naruto either came up with the Rasengan on his own (obvious AU, ramen typically is what inspired him), or the idea that he realized what he had to do when training with Jiraiya while staring at a bowl of ramen he was eating (spin the chakra, like the noodles swirl in the bowl).

Well, Naruto's breakthrough did come from liquid swirling in a bowl, but it wasn't ramen. His breakthrough actually came about from watching a toilet flush.



Also of interest is that Naruto says Jiraiya told him there's "No need to bind the seal." In the context of their prior discussion, he seems to be referring to the fact that Jiraiya told him there was no need for handseals. However, I find his wording of it rather odd. I've checked several translations, and it's the same general wording. My guess is that the term 'bind' is interchangeable with the term 'mold.'


Ninja Ranks: Canon Subgrades

Fanon and fan fiction has popularized the notion that there are degrees of difficulty and danger beyond those generally referred to in Naruto canon. Things such as SS-Rank, SSS-Rank, and other such nonsense. And for the most part, it is just that; nonsense.

However, there does appear to be a second, rarely talked about ranking system that overlaps the traditional one (E-Rank D-Rank C-Rank B-Rank A-Rank S-Rank).



Jiraiya's wording here is ambiguous, and can be read a few different ways. However, no matter which way you read him, it provides some very interesting information.

A.) The standard letter ranks are divided up into a subcategory, referred to as grades. That is to say, someone could be B-Rank Grade 3, or A-Rank Grade 1. This particular system is never really mentioned anywhere else, though in all fairness, there hasn't ever been much call to talk about it, either.

B.) If there is no sub-grading system, and Jiraiya is referring to the letter grades themselves (A, C, D, ect), then this is confirmation that not only are there ranks above S-Rank, but that there are five ranks higher than S-Rank.

If Minato really was "six grades higher" than A-Rank, then that means the system looks like this:

E-Rank
D-Rank
C-Rank
B-Rank
A-Rank
S-Rank
??-Rank
??-Rank
??-Rank
??-Rank
??-Rank <- Minato


The first is an interesting insight into the details of the ranking system, and strongly implies that Minato was an S-Rank ninja (and was intending the Rasengan to ultimately become an S-Rank technique). The second interpretation. . . SWEET NINJA JESUS ON A POGO STICK.

I'm personally inclined to go with the first one, if only because we have yet to meed a ninja formally introduced as Double Dutch Cross Your Heart XXX S<sup>7</sup>-Rank. Though that being said, if there really is a third part to the Naruto manga after Shippuden, we may very well meet someone who is. . . (and be assured that if we do, not only will people be bitching that it's an asspull, but that I'll be pointing at this and shouting NO IT WASN'T).

Also, as an aside, this is a slap in the face to the people who whined that the Rasengan being incomplete was an asspull. No it wasn't. Jiraiya told us it was incomplete as far back as the chapter after it was introduced. He says right there that it was the "technique the Fourth abandoned/left behind."

And before you ask, yes, I read the kanji. Painstakingly. It can be read as either abandoned or left behind. I'm assuming the translators went with left behind, because at the time, it made more sense.


Chakra Rotations: Everyone's is Different

Or: HOLY SNAP MY MECHANIC THEORY WAS RIGHT, KINDA SORTA


When Naruto was trying to burst the water balloon by spinning his chakra, he couldn't manage it, because he was only spinning it in one direction. That is mostly common knowledge.

But apparently, there's a second step here involved that pretty much everyone seems to have forgotten. Just. . just read:





:huh: was my first reaction. Then I read it again a few times, and noticed that Jiraiya tells us a lot of interesting little details about chakra that seem to have been almost universally forgotten.

1.) Chakra naturally rotates when you combined mental and physical energy together. And this natural rotation can be easily determined by looking at someone's hair, of all things.

2.) My allegedly unsupported theory that everyone's chakra is different is partially substantiated by this to a degree. It doesn't prove that everyone's chakra is unique, but it does prove that there are two main kinds of chakra users: people who's chakra naturally spins left, and people who's chakra naturally spins right.

This is JUST A HYPOTHESIS, but I find it someone plausible that some Kekkei Genkai, particularly the ones that involve using chakra in unusual ways:



May involve a line of ninja who specifically bred themselves to have chakra that naturally moves in unique and complex pattern when channeled. This may potentially account for why it's commonly believed that only people with Kekkei Genkai can use combination elements.

It would also explain why people who can combine two specific elements couldn't combine more (that's a different pattern), and it would mean that it is not strictly something that only an individual with a Kekkei Genkai can do. However, if you were to try and duplicate it, you would

A.) Have to know EXACTLY what you're doing.

B.) Have mastered the ability to control the movements of your own chakra to perfection.

C.) Have the affinities in question.

So it could be done, but it would be a beyond-Herculean task to do so, and would require incredibly detailed, intimate knowledge of a secret that you would probably be murdered for if it got out that you knew it.

Or in laymen's terms, yes, it's impossible. Don't waste your time trying. Unless you're a Shonen Protagonist, and can accomplish the impossible with burning blood.

3.) Having your chakra move and flow in certain ways can and does have a physical effect on how your body develops. This may not seem like a big deal by itself, but when you take a look at some people:



It becomes an elephant-in-the-room kind of question. "You look different." "Clans specialize in inborn traits and using chakra differently." "Chakra flow can affect your appearance."

thus

"Do you look different because your clan's chakra flows differently from everybody else's?"

and also:

"Is that why you have those marks on your face?"




Changing How Your Chakra Moves Changes It's Fundamental Properties

No, really. Read Naruto's dialogue:



Rotating your chakra to the left creates different chakra than rotating it to the right.

Also, just in case any of you noticed, the Rasengan can be formed with seals. This is huge news, because Jiraiya all but states "If you're good enough, you don't need the handseals, and it's better for you to learn how to do it sealless anyway." This is HUGE, because it's a canon confirmation that you can, in fact, learn how to do jutsu seal-less.

This is all but canon validation for my handseal and jutsu theory, and directly implies that if someone knew the string of seals needed to mold the chakra, anyone could create a Rasengan, and likely skip most of the training Naruto went through in the process. Granted, like Jiraiya said, it would require a long, complicated string to get the chakra to work the way it needs to, and it's better to learn how to do it manually, but still. That's huge news.


Also, for those of you doubting the idea that rotating and channeling chakra into different patterns causes the chakra itself to take on different properties, I'd like to point you to the dialogue in these panels:






Which supports the idea. ("You must combine your Water Walking chakra with your Wall Walking chakra to get the principle chakra you need.")

I'd also like to remind you that:

A.) The very definition of a handseal is something a ninja uses to shape and mold their chakra for them, and they work by channeling chakra into the hands while making different hand poses. This directly implies that changing the shape of chakra changes it's properties.

B.) If this wasn't true, then Fuuinjutsu would do jack-shit, because it's all about channeling chakra into complex runic patterns inscribed into a surface.



So yeah. Some weird stuff, some interesting stuff, and some stuff we really shouldn't have forgotten about in hindsight.

Thoughts?
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
#2
I'll just throw this out here real quick, I'm fairly certain that part about the Rasengan's rank is one of the oldest and most wellknown translation errors, along with Itachi's odd rambling about Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu after he fled from Jiraiya, link. I have a corrected version of the latter but I can't remember what the first was supposed to be.

Anyway, if rank was further divided up like that then it'd definitely be in one of the older databooks.
 

violinmana

(Hardcore) Gamer
#3
That makes sense about the Rasengan, if was only made to spin in one direction. However, when Naruto uses the Kage Bunshin to make the Rasengan...

His clone and him are quite literally on the opposite sides of the jutsu, which means that his Rasengan has both a "right" spin and a "left" spin, which would probably make it even more powerful than any that has come before it.
 

Kasek

Well-Known Member
#4
Being known to my friends as the "walking Narutopedia", most of this stuff isn't really news to me. However, I do like the theory that clans alter their chakra pathways and that this is why some clans look... "different".

Also, as to why kekkei genkai people can't use more than two elements: ....I'll just leave that alone for a day and see if your opinion changes.
 

e39042

Well-Known Member
#5
You've managed to become very confused by Jiraiya's explanation of the ranking system. The absolutely woeful translation is to blame. I remember a very detailed thread on the Narutofans forums many years ago where several japanese speakers weighed in to help clear up the confusion.

There are 6 ranks: S, A, B, C, D, and E. The second (highest) Rank is A. This is what Jiraiya was actually saying - it was absolutely butchered in translation though.
 
#6
violinmana said:
That makes sense about the Rasengan, if was only made to spin in one direction. However, when Naruto uses the Kage Bunshin to make the Rasengan...

His clone and him are quite literally on the opposite sides of the jutsu, which means that his Rasengan has both a "right" spin and a "left" spin, which would probably make it even more powerful than any that has come before it.
That would only be the case if the clone was a mirror of the original.

To illustrate: If both of them were wearing watches (the old analog ones) both watches' hands would move clockwise.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#7
I'll just throw this out here real quick, I'm fairly certain that part about the Rasengan's rank is one of the oldest and most wellknown translation errors, along with Itachi's odd rambling about Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu after he fled from Jiraiya, link.
Really? Axe that one off the list, then.

Still, though, I'm pretty sure all the chakra stuff stands. What do you think of that?

I'm of the opinion that your chakra moving in weird ways = you looking different is huge news. Not only does it provide a potential explaination for clans like the Inuzuka and the markings the vessels seem to naturally possess, but it could also potentially explain individuals like Kisame and Zetsu.


Plus, it provides a significant amount of evidence for my theory about how Kekkei Genkai work, so that's a bonus for me.

Also, as to why kekkei genkai people can't use more than two elements: ....I'll just leave that alone for a day and see if your opinion changes.
I'm not saying they can't use more than two elements. I'm saying it would explain why Tenzou couldn't use, say, Hyoton, even though he can combine water and wind.
 

e39042

Well-Known Member
#8
Having read further I'd also like to point out that you don't need an affinity to use an element. It's a common misconception that you've fallen prey to.
 

crazylike.A.

Well-Known Member
#9
About Naruto's breakthrough on the Rasengan, if you had read just some pages ahead of what you quoted you'd have see that what REALLY inspired him wasn't the toilet... but a playful kitty ^_^ :wub:
 

e39042

Well-Known Member
#10
Actually it was a combination of the two. The toilet was what made him realise he had to make the chakra spin, and the cat gave him the insperation to use a second hand.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#11
e39042 said:
Having read further I'd also like to point out that you don't need an affinity to use an element.
I know.

It's a common misconception that you've fallen prey to.
Um, no. I haven't. Have you read any of the stuff I've put out? I've been trying to conclusively disprove that for the past year and a half.
 

fenixzero

Well-Known Member
#12
Lord Raine said:
Rotating your chakra to the left creates different chakra than rotating it to the right.
I understood this as meaning that spinning your chakra in the opposite of normal creates a sort of chakra 'friction' that can be used, if you know how. And that spinning it in the normal direction doesn't because its 'going with the flow' as it were.

e39042 said:
Having read further I'd also like to point out that you don't need an affinity to use an element.
Can someone point to where this is said in canon? EDIT: I ask because you seem to be definitively stating this.

We haven't seen Yamato use any non-Suiton/Doton/Mokuton element jutsu before.

As I debated with Omega, here, I feel that you do need elemental affinity before you can use jutsu, or at the very least seallessly.
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
#13
Lord Raine said:
Still, though, I'm pretty sure all the chakra stuff stands. What do you think of that?
Interesting, but too complicated for me~ so sleepy.

My allegedly unsupported theory that everyone's chakra is different is partially substantiated by this to a degree. It doesn't prove that everyone's chakra is unique, but it does prove that there are two main kinds of chakra users: people who's chakra naturally spins left, and people who's chakra naturally spins right.
It's not unsupported, according to Inoichi everyone has a unique frequency to their chakra, which also corresponds with what Ao has been saying about Shisui's chakra in Danzo's body.

Rotating your chakra to the left creates different chakra than rotating it to the right.
Yin/Yang?

Anyway I'm sceptic about almost everything here, I don't really trust the old translations with such specific details because of the weird terms that come up and are never seen again. Especially since noone knows who translated and released ch151.
 

Ura Mamoru

Well-Known Member
#14
Speaking of the way one's chakra rotates, I was looking at the info on the Six Paths of Pain, and I noticed what was listed for Preta!Pain's chakra absorption technique: Fujutsu Kyuin (Blocking Jutsu Absorption Seal).

It's apparently a sealing jutsu that works by forcing one's own chakra to spin in the opposite direction from the way it naturally does, and using that to absorb all the chakra from something that approaches you, then dispersing that chakra into one's own body.

That means that it's a sealing jutsu using one's own chakra pathways as the seal. Goddamn that's got to be freakishly hard to pull off, let alone do without risking damaging yourself (not that Pain needed to worry much about that). Furthermore, the thought that one can actually intake chakra that way has to lead to some interesting possibilities.

Any thoughts on this?
 

Shinkaze

Active Member
#15
Ura Mamoru said:
Speaking of the way one's chakra rotates, I was looking at the info on the Six Paths of Pain, and I noticed what was listed for Preta!Pain's chakra absorption technique: Fujutsu Kyuin (Blocking Jutsu Absorption Seal).

It's apparently a sealing jutsu that works by forcing one's own chakra to spin in the opposite direction from the way it naturally does, and using that to absorb all the chakra from something that approaches you, then dispersing that chakra into one's own body.

That means that it's a sealing jutsu using one's own chakra pathways as the seal. Goddamn that's got to be freakishly hard to pull off, let alone do without risking damaging yourself (not that Pain needed to worry much about that). Furthermore, the thought that one can actually intake chakra that way has to lead to some interesting possibilities.

Any thoughts on this?
Yeah, who knows what that could do to a normal person? :D ( sorry for the low quality)
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#16
I thought all of this was obvious. Are you sure you didn't know this before?
 

the DragonBard

Well-Known Member
#17
fenixzero said:
e39042 said:
Having read further I'd also like to point out that you don't need an affinity to use an element.
Can someone point to where this is said in canon? EDIT: I ask because you seem to be definitively stating this.

We haven't seen Yamato use any non-Suiton/Doton/Mokuton element jutsu before.

As I debated with Omega, here, I feel that you do need elemental affinity before you can use jutsu, or at the very least seallessly.
Do you mean an affinity as a talent for a specific chakra nature, or an affinity as in they've mastered that particular chakra nature. Either way, I disagree with you.

Here, Kakashi says high level techniques require one to have mastered their chakra natures. The way he says it suggests that 'only' high level techniques have this requirement.

Plus, I doubt if Sasuke had mastered fire nature already while in the Academy. Kakashi's surprise was more that Sasuke had enough chakra to use it, not that Sasuke had mastered a chakra nature.
 

Shadowseraph

Well-Known Member
#18
yeah i always took that too mean that that there was a limit to how powerful a technique you could use without the affinity, you can still use low level jutsu of the type but probably not anything much above a low B-rank, unless you have an affinity for it.
 

Kasek

Well-Known Member
#19
Lord Raine said:
Also, as to why kekkei genkai people can't use more than two elements: ....I'll just leave that alone for a day and see if your opinion changes.
I'm not saying they can't use more than two elements. I'm saying it would explain why Tenzou couldn't use, say, Hyoton, even though he can combine water and wind.
That's what I meant- why a Kekkei Genkai user can't use more than one elemental fusion, say if they were to master a third elemental affinity, such as certain high level ninja are prone to have.

Oh look, the new chapter's out. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/01/

And what's this? Why, Mizukage says she has two kekkei genkai because she has mastered three elements! What a surprise!

And it was said during the Kakuzu and Hidan arc that Kakuzu shouldn't be using such a variety of high powered jutsus because you needed an affinity to get them that powerful.
 

the DragonBard

Well-Known Member
#20
Kasek said:
Lord Raine said:
Also, as to why kekkei genkai people can't use more than two elements: ....I'll just leave that alone for a day and see if your opinion changes.
I'm not saying they can't use more than two elements. I'm saying it would explain why Tenzou couldn't use, say, Hyoton, even though he can combine water and wind.
That's what I meant- why a Kekkei Genkai user can't use more than one elemental fusion, say if they were to master a third elemental affinity, such as certain high level ninja are prone to have.

Oh look, the new chapter's out. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/01/

And what's this? Why, Mizukage says she has two kekkei genkai because she has mastered three elements! What a surprise!
Actually, we don't know she 'doesn't' have two kekkai genkai.

However, it could be taken either way at the moment, so I'll try and reserve my decision until we learn more.
 

foreverzero

Well-Known Member
#21
Lord Raine
Did you get to the part where Team 8 attacked and may have killed a team of Konoha genin during the chunin exams? I thought that was pretty crazy. :sisi:
 

the DragonBard

Well-Known Member
#23
knight504 said:
the DragonBard said:
Actually, we don't know she 'doesn't' have two kekkai genkai.
...wut :huh:
Kasek's point was that the Mizukage has three Chakra Nature's under her belt, and is able to create two 'different' hybrid element (or whatever you want to call them) ninjutsu. To Kasek, this is proof that the Mokuton, Hyouton, Yoton, etc jutsu are the same kekkai genkai. The only difference is that the wielders have different chakra natures, and if they learn a third, they could wield another hybrid element.

So, if you had been born with Water nature, you could learn both Hyouton and Mokuton, as well as that Acid jutsu.

What I was saying, she might actually have two different kekkai genkai, which would be why she can combine them like that.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#24
Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. And I think that your theory (two different Kekkei Genkai) holds more plausibility out of the two.
 

Kasek

Well-Known Member
#25
Actually, I came up with a new theory, which explains why the Mizukage can't use Mokuton-

The Kekkei Genkai that gives you fusions only affects one element. For example, Mizukage's kekkei genkai is that she can use Fire-elemental fusions. If she gains another element, she can fuse that with Fire, but she can't fuse it with an element that is not Fire.

Also, since a singular fusion is called a kekkei genkai, claiming she has two kekkei genkai is easier than saying she has two fusions from one kekkei genkai.

I think this is more likely the case.
 
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