Nasuverse Schweinorg Shirou

Voivod

Well-Known Member
#1
What if after the grail was destroyed and the inferno started Kirgitsu booked it out out of there and never came back unknowingly living Shirou to die. Yet somene else come back and found the young boy, the Wizard Marshall himself. Wether he sensed the grail being destroyed or whatever plot device is used to get him there, he finds Shirou and seeing some potential in the boy takes him away for safety and training

Love it? Hate it? Doesn't work at all?
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#2
I really want to see what people think about it. Given that Zelretch's magic focuses on crossing dimensional boundaries, the possibilities here are virtually endless.
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#3
What would make Zelretch interested in Shirou in the first place?

That's what I need to understand first, honestly.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#4
Well, the problem with that is Zelretch couldn't possibly teach Shirou to use the Second Magic. It also presents the problem of Shirou actually 'learning magic properly'. While Kiritsugu never really trained Shirou seriously, the fact is that Shirou DOES suck at almost all conventional magics. And without his crazed method of using magic, I can't see Shirou learning how to do his Tracing, that also means no Reality Marble.

Therein lies another problem, because Zelretch usually only takes interest in people that have talent. While Shirou is damn powerful with the right (or more correctly, 'wrong') method, his talent is not clear whatsoever. I have a hard time seeing Zelretch getting that interested.

*shrug* The concept of Shirou getting trained/raised by Zelretch is interesting, but I can't see it panning out too well, realistically.
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#5
Zelretch can't travel through time, if I recall, so he couldn't really have met Shirou and seen his talent in the future.

However...

He could have met Archer. Or, have encountered some form of Archer in the past; Counter Guardians are implied to be able to go backwards in time, after all.

Meeting a counter-guardian as a child might perk his interest.

Still, without the Avalon implanted, Shirou is at a greater disadvantage than he would have been with it.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#6
Except, it's very unlikely that Counter-Guardians are in their original form when used. They're still Eirei, after all, and Eirei do not take their original form outside of the Fuyuki Grail Wars. I find it a bit hard to believe that Zelretch out not only run into Archer AND be able to recognize him as Shirou (even going with the theory of him knowing what Archer), since not only does he not have the name Emiya at that point, but he looks VERY, VERY different from Archer, doubly so that he's a kid. Zelretch is not omnipotent, after all.

EDIT:

By the way, I must compliment you on your choice of avatar's once more. ;)
 

Voivod

Well-Known Member
#7
all valid points but heres an idea

Due to the various possiblities and Alternative paths and variations of Shirou he could be... whats a good word radiating with Kaliedoscope magic while he can't use it it does peek the Wizard Marshal's interest.

It does seem a bit of a stretch will it admit but if I don't think Kaleidoscope magic was ever totally explained so it could be possible
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#8
Fatuous One said:
Except, it's very unlikely that Counter-Guardians are in their original form when used. They're still Eirei, after all, and Eirei do not take their original form outside of the Fuyuki Grail Wars. I find it a bit hard to believe that Zelretch out not only run into Archer AND be able to recognize him as Shirou (even going with the theory of him knowing what Archer), since not only does he not have the name Emiya at that point, but he looks VERY, VERY different from Archer, doubly so that he's a kid. Zelretch is not omnipotent, after all.
Yeah.

It's definitely hard to make this story work.

Hmm...

There are just some things that are destined to happen. Just as Kotomine was destined to die in the Fifth Holy Grail war no matter what, maybe Shirou was destined to be saved. With Kiritsugu unavailable, the World seeks to keep order no matter what it has to do.

So, it takes the first person it could find: Zelretch, who for some reason comes forward at the end of every Grail War, just to survey what the result was, not intentionally planning to interfere.

...still, that seems a little forced.

Honestly though, anything involving Zelretch is difficult to be made non-crack. You know?
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#9
all valid points but heres an idea

Due to the various possiblities and Alternative paths and variations of Shirou he could be... whats a good word radiating with Kaliedoscope magic while he can't use it it does peek the Wizard Marshal's interest.

It does seem a bit of a stretch will it admit but if I don't think Kaleidoscope magic was ever totally explained so it could be possible
That's because there's very little known about True Magic at all. Hell, only three of them have any info on what they DO (with one of them rather sketchy). But the problem with your idea is that you seem to be implying that the Second is an 'energy', which it isn't. The magic generally is used to open up a hole to parallel possibilities (e.g., Rin used to the traced version of Zelretch to draw prana from different worlds). In other words, the use of the Second is the ability to manipulate all possibilities. While this can extend to Shirou (i.e., the different scenarios. Fate, UBW and HF), it also extends to just about EVERYONE.

But okay, temporarily ignoring the how and why of Zelretch raising Shirou... again, I ask, what then? If he was a heir of Schweinorg then he could use the Jewel Sword Zelretch like Rin (so long as he made one), but... so what? His talent still lies basically only in Tracing and a few other 'skills', and the weapon would be practically useless for him.

EDIT:

Yeah.

It's definitely hard to make this story work.

Hmm...

There are just some things that are destined to happen. Just as Kotomine was destined to die in the Fifth Holy Grail war no matter what, maybe Shirou was destined to be saved. With Kiritsugu unavailable, the World seeks to keep order no matter what it has to do.

So, it takes the first person it could find: Zelretch, who for some reason comes forward at the end of every Grail War, just to survey what the result was, not intentionally planning to interfere.

...still, that seems a little forced.

Honestly though, anything involving Zelretch is difficult to be made non-crack. You know?
Well, I'd say it's less 'destiny' and more 'possibility' (Kotomine's heart was on a timer. He simply COULDN'T live past the war because he would have simply expired like Kiritsugu afterwards even if nobody was left), but whatever. That's a possible point, yes.

And... WHAT? Man, are you forgetting that Zelretch is the creator of the Kaleidostick? :p Zelretch != non-crack. ^^;;

He's the old fart that causes the magical academies cry whenever he may visit.
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#10
Well then, I have a reason now.

Deciding that he needs to ensure that the family line would continue, he randomly picks Shirou as Rin's future husband-without telling either of them. To ensure that Shirou will get strong, he goes takes Shirou for some training through the worlds.

Saotome style.

Rin comes along too, and they also pick up alternate versions of Rin, who either have nowhere else to go or can't stand being separated from Shirou. Kaleido Ruby-loli is a must. Then, they all eventually return to the original world, where Zelretch announces the engagement to the original Rin and Shirou.

Thus, the Holy Grail War actually begins when the various versions of Rin try to summon servants to win Shirou over through sheer force.
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#12
the only question i have is what he'll be capable of when he's learned to do things semi-correctly in regards to magic, it'd be interesting if Shirou is capable of instinctively getting past problems with reinforcement and the like. the only thing i could see limiting him now are the 27 circuits he has, rather than the hundred or so he would have otherwise ended up with, which i'd think would have made Tracing NPs easier.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#13
Uhm... What?

In regards to his circuits, no. 27 is GOOD. It's more than most hope would even hope for. He wouldn't have over a hundred any other way than the method he's using in canon, he'd JUST have his 27 (which, like I said, is pretty high).

And in regards to him being more skilled in conventional magic, I really, really doubt it. While his bizarre method of using magic does resent somewhat of a handicap from my understanding, he really does lack talent in almost everything.

In actuality, learning things conventionally would be bad for Shirou. His method of Tracing is unique in that he basically made it up himself (through Kiritsugu's whacked method of using magic), and is the entire reason why his Tracing is so powerful. Being trained by Zelretch would probably make Shirou weaker overall, honestly.





On a side note, having more circuits != skill in magic, at all. That also applies to having an easier time Tracing anything.
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#14
sorry, i need to clarify, when i was talking about the Circuits i was thinking about the Prana generating aspect of them and since NPs are so strong I'd think they'd need a large amount of prana to make.

as for the instinctive comment i was thinking more along the lines of 'with a correct education he can see a few more of the problems he had with reality alteration and fix them because thats what he actually does.' as that's what i see Tracing as.

edit:
jeez, my thinking is going everywhere except straight ahead, the circuits were also a reference to what he has now 27 instead of whatever, lost my train of thought i'll repost as soon as i remember what i forgot.

edit2:
I've read way too many Naruto fanfics lately. :sweat: typo fixed.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#15
edit:
jeez, my thinking is going everywhere except straight ahead, the circuits were also a reference to what he has now 27 instead of whatever, lost my train of thought i'll repost as soon as i remember what i forgot.
Ahh, I see, I misunderstood.

sorry, i need to clarify, when i was talking about the Circuits i was thinking about the Prana generating aspect of them and since NPs are so strong I'd think they'd need a large amount of chakra to make.
Well, Prana is a factor yes. However, my main point was that it's fairly moot anyway since I don't think Shirou would be able to achieve the same proficiency in Tracing as he did in the original, as being taught by Zelretch would make him use his magic properly instead of his regular bizarre method (that lead to his amazing Tracing skills).

as for the instinctive comment i was thinking more along the lines of 'with a correct education he can see a few more of the problems he had with reality alteration and fix them because thats what he actually does.' as that's what i see Tracing as.
Ehh... That isn't a factor with Shirou's Tracing abilities. Archer was being literal when he told Shirou to "imagine it". His imagination is basically what's allowing him to create weapons. Being properly educated would probably deter if anything.
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#16
The thing about that is he'll have an extremely advanced Magi to learn from. i'm of the opinion that all the really good ones develop their own method as it were, besides if he only takes those with talent it would be reasonable to assume he has methods of telling what talents they are capable of and someone like Shirou would be too interesting IMHO.

on a side note, what i meant by 'instinctive capability' was that with normal Circuit knowledge he could have originally done all the Tracing on his own however with Kiritsugu's teaching it not only sped up his tracing ability but gave him at least three problems with tracing and not Reinforcement that he eventually got around. this is just personal speculation to make things more plausible. please, point out any holes in my logic with this scenario.

Edit:
What i'm trying to keep in mind is that something like this has huge repercussions, not only in character ability but in figuring out what's a part of them at such an early point, as i'm still under the impression that he was born with his Reality Marble such a thing should IMO make an impact on his Tracing ability especially with such a teacher.
i know i'm forgetting stuff though so i'll be heading to bed soon.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#17
The thing about that is he'll have an extremely advanced Magi to learn from. i'm of the opinion that all the really good ones develop their own method as it were, besides if he only takes those with talent it would be reasonable to assume he has methods of telling what talents they are capable of and someone like Shirou would be too interesting IMHO.
And therein lies a problem twofold. As I've stated before, I find it a bit hard to believe Zelretch would take Shirou. You can't just look at a person and say "Oh, that boy's got talent!", especially a SIX-YEAR-OLD. Even when Zelretch picked out some apprentices, he took the BEST, that had shown themselves to be so, he didn't hand pick them himself.

Additionally, Shirou's method of Tracing is based on Kiritsugu's method of using magic, which is one that no sane mage would ever thing of using (it puts you constantly at risk of killing yourself). Zelretch would teach him the conventional way, as there's no way he would know to teach Shirou some self-destructive method for no reason, and Shirou would never have the opportunity to learn any other method (unless they run into some alternate version of Kiritsugu... but I can't see that working out well either).

NORMAL magi take years and years to develop properly (think decades), and Shirou would have ten years. It just wouldn't add up.

on a side note, what i meant by 'instinctive capability' was that with normal Circuit knowledge he could have originally done all the Tracing on his own however with Kiritsugu's teaching it not only sped up his tracing ability but gave him at least three problems with tracing and not Reinforcement that he eventually got around. this is just personal speculation to make things more plausible. please, point out any holes in my logic with this scenario.
...I think you're under a mistaken impression.

Kiritsugu's method of teaching? It's the entire reason why Shirou can Trace like he does. Shirou literally invented his method of Tracing based on Kiritsugu's way of using magic. If Shirou were taught the conventional way of Tracing, it would lead absolutely nowhere, as they very different in what they do.

Basically, as I said, Shirou could not possibly learn to Trace weapons the way he does in canon if he didn't learn his bizarre way of using magic, since its principals are based on that method.

What i'm trying to keep in mind is that something like this has huge repercussions, not only in character ability but in figuring out what's a part of them at such an early point, as i'm still under the impression that he was born with his Reality Marble such a thing should IMO make an impact on his Tracing ability especially with such a teacher.
i know i'm forgetting stuff though so i'll be heading to bed soon.
Uhm... no. People aren't born with Reality Marbles. I'm sort of hazy on how they're created, but I know that people aren't born with them.
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#18
heh, you tore apart the main reason for being stubborn, which was the Reality Marble, thanks for the info though looks like it's time to sift through the magic stuff at HF, chances are that i'll find something to support some of my other ideas for Shirou's natural abilities. night.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#19
Mereo Flere said:
Well then, I have a reason now.

Deciding that he needs to ensure that the family line would continue, he randomly picks Shirou as Rin's future husband-without telling either of them. To ensure that Shirou will get strong, he goes takes Shirou for some training through the worlds.

Saotome style.

Rin comes along too, and they also pick up alternate versions of Rin, who either have nowhere else to go or can't stand being separated from Shirou. Kaleido Ruby-loli is a must. Then, they all eventually return to the original world, where Zelretch announces the engagement to the original Rin and Shirou.

Thus, the Holy Grail War actually begins when the various versions of Rin try to summon servants to win Shirou over through sheer force.
WIN ON A MASSIVE SCALE!

You also get around Shirou's problems by having people other than Zelretch help train him, like Kiritsugu.
 

Shikaze

Well-Known Member
#20
Problem is, ONLY Kiritsugu would help him develop the same tracing skills he has in the anime, and Zelretch is sure to put a stop to this as soon as he sees it.
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#21
Hmm...

How would Shirou learn to trace?

Well, the potential for his reality marble is there. So, all he would need is the knowledge. I say that you just make him steal the Kaleidoscope, cause a magical accident, and make the abilities permanent.

...other than that, who knows?

Archer can train him if he's summoned, though you'd have to figure out a reason why.

Really though, does it matter if Shirou can trace? All that matters is that he can make lots of babies.

<<

>>
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#22
Well, the potential for his reliability marble is there. So, all he would need is the knowledge. I say that you just make him steal the Kaleidoscope, cause a magical accident, and make the abilities permanent.
...Actually, that's perfect.

Remember the Kaleidostick?

Basically, all it does is download the skills of a parallel self into the wielder (of course, it also brainwashes the user, but whatever). While I'm fairly sure that the Kaleidostick is a female only... ah, weapon, there's no reason why Shirou couldn't come across a similar artifact considering who he'd be traveling with.

The only problem is, of course, making the abilities permanent. But... :p

Of course, there ARE a few other problems. Mainly that, since the Second doesn't deal with time travel, I'm wondering if Shirou would only be able to download versions of himself that were also his age (i.e., not really trained in that Tracing tidbit-ness).

Really though, does it matter if Shirou can trace? All that matters is that he can make lots of babies.
QFT.

:lol:
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#23
*Reads F1's post*

Reliability Marble?

*Goes back and edits his/her own*

In any case, as Emiya Shirou exists in the Throne of Heroes, which exists out of time, I suppose you could say that the parallel abilities he receives are Archer's.

Still, I think that Archer might just be the most viable method. Archer might not try to kill Shirou either, if only because all of the Rins are there.

And really, how likely would it be for a Zelretch raised Shirou to become Archer?
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#24
The problem with summoning Archer is that it would require Third Magic use. I do not see that as a likely option (mostly because I think that Ilya is the only one at that point who would be able to use it, and she's pretty much a child herself at that point).
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#25
I don't mean that Shirou would get tracing as a child.

No, I mean that when the servants are summoned, Archer will be one of them, and from meeting him Shirou learns his abilities a la Unlimited Blade Works. Before that, Shirou wouldn't need to fight, or be able to keep the girls from killing each other.

Otherwise, if the Grail War isn't involved, and fighting isn't involved at all, then there's no point for tracing in the first place.

Not that there would be much of one anyway, assuming that this is mostly a catfight. Shirou is pretty screwed if he tries to interfere no matter how badass he gets.
 
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