Digimon Sha Nagba Imuru û He Who Knows Everything

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#26
Daneel Rush said:
Reality Script: èarrum Üa gimr³tim tÙm´ ikÜudu û Transcendence of the Root of Legends
Power:
N/A
Type: Support
Range: 12 km
Maximum Number of Targets: N/A

ôGilgameshÆs Reality Script. His answer to Seder Hishtalshelus, you could say. Of course, itÆs nowhere near close to Seder Hishtalshelus in scope, and itÆs mostly useful as a combat technique. In fact, it makes the bulk of GilgameshÆ combat power. ItÆs strongùbrute strength at its finest. Overwhelming power capable of outlasting any opponentàI guess thatÆs the idea. And it works, most of the time, as much as it pains me to admit it. I cannot beat this technique by myself. Onii-chan had to dispel the Reality Script before it defeated him. I heard Metatron defeated him in the same way some centuries ago. I think SophiaÆs the only one who has actually outlasted it, even if she could have dispelled it. Maybe it was her way to teach him a lesson?ö

Gilgamesh. The King of Heroes. The Original Epic Hero. His tale precedes all tales of warring and heroics and thus all heroes after him are but pale reflections of his greatness. The awe they inspire, the legends attributed to them, they are all but mere shadows of his encompassing magnitude and the weight of his legend. Protecting the weak, slaying beasts, challenging gods, wielding artifacts of poweràhe did it all before anyone else. He encompasses all heroics, all legends and all great battles, and thus they all belong to him.

Gilgamesh can create any object, mundane or supernatural, as long as it was made and/or has at some point in history been used either for combat or for a heroic purpose. From a sturdy tree branch or a muleÆs jaw to an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine, they are all within the scope of this Technique. He can also create any Instrumental Weapon made after his original lifetime, as long as it fulfills the same prerequisites. For example, Gilgamesh could create Durandal, a legendary blade, but he would not be able to create the PhilosopherÆs Stoneùas legendary as it may be, it is not directly associated with any heroics or warfare.

While already immensely powerful, so far the effect stated above is still not something beyond the scope of a ôReality Scriptö. It is the second effect of this Program which makes it deserving of the title. GilgameshÆs supreme Technique temporarily modifies the very definition of ôInstrumental Weaponö by the sheer might of his legendary status. In other words, ôif it belongs to Gilgamesh, it must naturally be legendaryö.

Any and all mundane objects created by Gilgamesh with this Techniqueùthe tree branch, the mule jaw, the aircraft carrier, the nuclear submarineùgain Instrumental Weapon status. This often only involves a boost in their power output, enough to become of use against Supernals. However, objects which carry the potential of becoming Instrumental Weapons on their own at some point in the future may gain additional special properties. More often than not Gilgamesh personally encodes special features into the items he creates according to the situationùanti-demon missiles against the denizens of Hell, for example.

Note: the name of the Script is ancient Akkadian for ôThe King Who Conquered All Designsö.
Awesome. It's like Archer + F/Z Berserker!

I have a few questions, though.

How far does it's ability to recreate IW's go? Could he create Ea (he took over after Enlil died, right? And since he didn't get turned into a weapon until after he stopped getting Worshipped...)? Merodach (he's Ea's son, I think, so he probably came after him)? I doubt he can create either (because then he'd be quickly hurrled into 'OMG, I'm unstoppable' territory), but I want to know the limits of this Script.

What weapons predate Gil (like, did Eden's Blade exist when Adam and Eve got kicked out or was it human belief that later created it)? Can IW's be created in the Higher Realms or are they strictly Lower Realm?

Can you define 'object' for the sake of this Script? A tree branch and a jaw bon were used, so obviously things that had once been alive can be recreated, but can things that are still alive be? I doubt it, but...

Can you define 'heroic purpose?' Like...the Yata no Kagami and the Yasakani no Magatama drew Amaterasu out of her cave. The Book of Thoth? Do they count?

Can he recreate IW's that were (apparently) originally created by Dual Forces? Like the Ark of Certain Victory? Ex Nihilo?

How much energy does this take to use? How hard is it to maintain. How long can Gil maintain it? Does it have an aria like other Scripts?

How powerful do mundane objects that are turned into IW's become? Is there a set increase or do more powerful objects become more powerful weapons?

Why did Metatron fight Gil? Why did Sophia?

Do the IW's he can create have to have been used as weapons (or for heroic purposes) in their original 'life time'?

Does he have to know about the weapons to create them? If so, to what detail? Does he need to know how to build a nuclear sub or study airplanes?

To what degree can he modify mundane objects? You gave 'anti-demon' as an example, but can he make them anti-(someone specific)?

You said it can be dispelled; how hard is that to do? Can it be done to other Reality Scripts?

When did he create this Technique?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#27
*chuckles' Those are not "a few questions".

Let's see...

How far does it's ability to recreate IW's go? Could he create Ea (he took over after Enlil died, right? And since he didn't get turned into a weapon until after he stopped getting Worshipped...)? Merodach (he's Ea's son, I think, so he probably came after him)? I doubt he can create either (because then he'd be quickly hurrled into 'OMG, I'm unstoppable' territory), but I want to know the limits of this Script.

Both Ea and Merodach are Supernals turned into Instrumental Weapons. Gilgamesh cannot make either because only Adam can create Souls and thus Gil cannot reproduce the Souls of either fallen god.


What weapons predate Gil (like, did Eden's Blade exist when Adam and Eve got kicked out or was it human belief that later created it)? Can IW's be created in the Higher Realms or are they strictly Lower Realm?

The original Eden's Blade existed long before the Original Sin, as it is Metatron's favored weapon. Nothing like "an angel guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden" happened in reality, and the biblical text most likely refers to Metatron's appearance.

The version Takato carries is in fact a weaker reproduction popular among the Heavenly Host. Takato could have summoned the original, but he never found the need to.

The above implies that, yes, Instrumental Weapons can be created in the Higher Realms (Ark of Certain Victory and Dßinsleif II are other examples).


Can you define 'object' for the sake of this Script? A tree branch and a jaw bon were used, so obviously things that had once been alive can be recreated, but can things that are still alive be? I doubt it, but...

Yes, living beings apply, as long as they do not carry Supernal power (demigods and things like youkai are out of the question). He could create Bucephalus, Alexander's famous steed. He could, for example, create the entire US army, all of them empowered by All Love for the Ruler of Legend and wielding Instrumental weaponry, as in the Battle of Mare Aeterna.


Can you define 'heroic purpose?' Like...the Yata no Kagami and the Yasakani no Magatama drew Amaterasu out of her cave. The Book of Thoth? Do they count?

The Script refers to objects used, either in history or legend, by those who in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrificeùthat is, heroismùfor the greater good of some of or all humanity.

If it had been a human who had hung the mirror and the stone to lure Amaterasu, then yes, it would have been considered "heroic". The Book of Thoth counts simply because it includes offensive spells, and thus was conceived with the possibility of being used as a weapon.


Can he recreate IW's that were (apparently) originally created by Dual Forces? Like the Ark of Certain Victory? Ex Nihilo?

They are older than Gilgamesh, so no. He could take a weapon and make it "anti-God", but it probably would not be as good as the original Ex Nihilo.

How much energy does this take to use? How hard is it to maintain. How long can Gil maintain it? Does it have an aria like other Scripts?

In the Battle of Mare Aeterna, Gil created the equivalent of all the world's armies, navies and air forces, at the same time he fought Takato, Taichi and Rika by bombarding them with a barrage of Instrumental Weapons a-la Gates of Babylon, all the while personally wielding Enlil in his right hand, Ninlil in his left hand and while wearing Humbaba (it's a badass armor, you see).

The battle lasted around 45 minutes. Had Takato not dispelled the script, Gilgamesh would have probably been able to keep going for about an hour longer.


How powerful do mundane objects that are turned into IW's become? Is there a set increase or do more powerful objects become more powerful weapons?

It depends on the object. Take the example of the donkey's jaw. To put some numbers in it, applying the Script to any one jaw would give it a power output of about 800 (all Digimon under perfect are OHK'd). If he associates a jaw he creates to the legend of Samson, it would become even more powerful, as it would not longer be "a normal jaw empowered by virtue of belonging to Gilgamesh" but "a copy of the Instrumental Weapon, the Ass Jawbone of Samson". It would also have whatever special properties the Ass Jawbone of Samson has registered in SAMYA_JARA.

If the object has the weight of "legend" or "history", it will be stronger; that's the basic rule. Gil would not create just "an empowered Airco DH.2", he would create "the Airco DH.2 Manfred von Richthofen used to down Major Lanoe Hawker VC on 23 November 1916, empowered".


Why did Metatron fight Gil? Why did Sophia?

Shortly after the death of the "Son of God", Gilgamesh challenged Metatron. You see, Gilgamesh had figured out just what Micael is, and he suspected Metatron was a similar existence. They fought, Metatron won. Gilgamesh was pissed off, but he did not try anything else. At some point, Adam Kadmot met Gilgamesh and told him that, yes, he was right about Micael but, no, Metatron is not like Micael.

As for Sophia, it was pretty straightforward. As usual, Lilith and Sophia were Incarnated and traveling together. Archdemons appear to kill Sophia. Lilith steps forward to fight them. Gilgamesh walks in. Gilgamesh attacks Lilith. Sophia steps in to protect Lilith. Lilith owns Archdemons. Sophia owns Gilgamesh. Lilith and Sophia go on their merry way.


Do the IW's he can create have to have been used as weapons (or for heroic purposes) in their original 'life time'?

No. That's why I wrote 'made and/or used'.


Does he have to know about the weapons to create them? If so, to what detail? Does he need to know how to build a nuclear sub or study airplanes?

He only needs to know that such a thing exists. Of course, if he wanted to conjure Samson's jawbone, he needs to know about this guy Samson who killed 1000 Philistines with an ass' jawbone.

Basically, he only needs to know the existence of objects and their "story", if it applies.


To what degree can he modify mundane objects? You gave 'anti-demon' as an example, but can he make them anti-(someone specific)?

He cannot reproduce effects of things he cannot create. Therefore, he cannot either create Merodach or "an object with Merodach's effect".

He could create things to be anti-(someone specific). Such items would not be insta-death effects if targeted at Supernals, however. Only super-effective.

He cannot create "anti-Adam", however. The existence of such a weapon and the subsequent countering by the Agenda of Supremacy would create a positive feedback loop the Thread of Destiny interrupts before it can even begin. This restriction had to be manually inputted by Sophia, though. Otherwise Gil's first attempt at 'anti-Adam' would have triggered the heat death of the Universe or something equally nasty.


You said it can be dispelled; how hard is that to do? Can it be done to other Reality Scripts?

(Almost) all Programs can be dispelled, and Reality Scripts are no exception. It is extremely difficult, though, to the point that Lilith would not rely on such a strategy (she didn't try on Pandora's Box, after all). Takato was able to do it against Gilgamesh because Boundaries is a good Agenda for dispelling Techniques and he still needed a lot of time.

The one interesting exception is Raphael's Reality Script. While its super-healing effect can be dispelled before the execution is completed, its contingent resurrection effect cannot.

In the past, Sophia (and only Sophia) had the skill to dispel Seder Hishtalshelus. After COSMO_INFERIA, this is no longer possible.


When did he create this Technique?

As soon as Gilgamesh learned of the existence of Reality Scripts, and that Adam Kadmon has the most powerful one, he set off to make his own, thus it was created relatively soon after his Supernal ascension (a few centuries, give or take).
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#28
Both Ea and Merodach are Supernals turned into Instrumental Weapons. Gilgamesh cannot make either because only Adam can create Souls and thus Gil cannot reproduce the Souls of either fallen god.
Wait...they also had souls created by Adam? Is that true of all Supernals? Or is this specific to Divinities (it would explain why Adam has that Agenda...).

Is his possession of the Agenda of Souls the reason that only he can make souls or is his ability to make souls the reason he has that Agenda? Is it flat-out impossible for anyone else to make souls?

The Script refers to objects used, either in history or legend, by those who in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrificeùthat is, heroismùfor the greater good of some of or all humanity.

If it had been a human who had hung the mirror and the stone to lure Amaterasu, then yes, it would have been considered "heroic". The Book of Thoth counts simply because it includes offensive spells, and thus was conceived with the possibility of being used as a weapon.
Can you give some examples of IW's that qualify because they're heroic, despite not being weapons?

Can he recreate IW's that were (apparently) originally created by Dual Forces? Like the Ark of Certain Victory? Ex Nihilo?

They are older than Gilgamesh, so no. He could take a weapon and make it "anti-God", but it probably would not be as good as the original Ex Nihilo.
Big Question!

Once, awhile back, I asked you if Dual Forces could be used prior to the current Holy War and you said no, it was new. Has that changed? I think so, since it was discovered during the Original Holy War.

If so, were they used in the previous Holy Wars? Since you said Ex Nihilo and the Ark were older then Gil, I think so.

This leads me to a question:

Are all the known Dual Forces usable before the current Holy War? Could Metatron have summoned Gabriel and pulled out Merodach before Marduk existed?

In the Battle of Mare Aeterna, Gil created the equivalent of all the world's armies, navies and air forces, at the same time he fought Takato, Taichi and Rika by bombarding them with a barrage of Instrumental Weapons a-la Gates of Babylon, all the while personally wielding Enlil in his right hand, Ninlil in his left hand and while wearing Humbaba (it's a badass armor, you see).

The battle lasted around 45 minutes. Had Takato not dispelled the script, Gilgamesh would have probably been able to keep going for about an hour longer.
Wow. How did he fit them all in 12 km. Also, is it 12 km in diameter? Is that it's radius? Is it centered on Gil?

Also, I just want to make sure this works:

The 'total energy' of a Supernal is based off their Stamina and Reality/Dat Manipulation scores, right? And that amount of energy determines (among many other things) how long he can hold his Reality Script, right? So, if he opened his Reality Script and then used it to create Durendal and Ex Nihilo II and dual wielded them, thus boosting...pretty much all of his stats to 90 (and the rest almost that), his Stamina and Reality/Data Manipulation scores would also increase, giving him more energy, right?

Can he do that? Spend some energy in order to get a hell of a lot more energy? Or is that BadWrongFun?

It depends on the object. Take the example of the donkey's jaw. To put some numbers in it, applying the Script to any one jaw would give it a power output of about 800 (all Digimon under perfect are OHK'd). If he associates a jaw he creates to the legend of Samson, it would become even more powerful, as it would not longer be "a normal jaw empowered by virtue of belonging to Gilgamesh" but "a copy of the Instrumental Weapon, the Ass Jawbone of Samson". It would also have whatever special properties the Ass Jawbone of Samson has registered in SAMYA_JARA.

If the object has the weight of "legend" or "history", it will be stronger; that's the basic rule. Gil would not create just "an empowered Airco DH.2", he would create "the Airco DH.2 Manfred von Richthofen used to down Major Lanoe Hawker VC on 23 November 1916, empowered".
How strong would something backed up by the weight of History, like those two examples, be?

Shortly after the death of the "Son of God", Gilgamesh challenged Metatron. You see, Gilgamesh had figured out just what Micael is, and he suspected Metatron was a similar existence. They fought, Metatron won. Gilgamesh was pissed off, but he did not try anything else. At some point, Adam Kadmot met Gilgamesh and told him that, yes, he was right about Micael but, no, Metatron is not like Micael.
How many people knew about Micael before Adam/Takato explianed it?

Also, what does Gil think of Metatron, Sandalphon, and Micael? You listed the other Aspects, so...

As for Sophia, it was pretty straightforward. As usual, Lilith and Sophia were Incarnated and traveling together. Archdemons appear to kill Sophia. Lilith steps forward to fight them. Gilgamesh walks in. Gilgamesh attacks Lilith. Sophia steps in to protect Lilith. Lilith owns Archdemons. Sophia owns Gilgamesh. Lilith and Sophia go on their merry way.
When was this, timeline-wise?

No. That's why I wrote 'made and/or used'.
Can you define used? I mean, if Kamael uses his strength to pick up, say, the Palladium (which was just a statue in myth, but I'm not sure what it is in GOSPEL) and beats someone to death with it, does that make it count? Or, in case it falls under the Heroic thing, if someone bashes people in the face with the Yata no Kagami, does that count?

I just want to know what counts as BadWrongFun.

He cannot create "anti-Adam", however. The existence of such a weapon and the subsequent countering by the Agenda of Supremacy would create a positive feedback loop the Thread of Destiny interrupts before it can even begin. This restriction had to be manually inputted by Sophia, though. Otherwise Gil's first attempt at 'anti-Adam' would have triggered the heat death of the Universe or something equally nasty.
While that would have been horrible if she hadn't shut it down, it sadly denies the chance for hilarity and eternal bragging rights. Can you imagine?

Adam: "I'm so awesome, that when someone tried to create a weapon that could beat me, it blew up the Universe. And it didn't work."

Or:

Gil: "Once upon a time, God and I threw down. And that, child, is how the Universe was destroyed."

Oh, well. At least they can both say:

"In fear of our inevitabl battle, Sophia rewrote the Universe to keep things in check. I suppose it's for the best; everyone would have died, otherwise."

Bragging Rights. Forever.

(Almost) all Programs can be dispelled, and Reality Scripts are no exception. It is extremely difficult, though, to the point that Lilith would not rely on such a strategy (she didn't try on Pandora's Box, after all). Takato was able to do it against Gilgamesh because Boundaries is a good Agenda for dispelling Techniques and he still needed a lot of time.
You mentioned above that Gil could beat Moloch by figuring out Pandora's Box? Is this what you meant? If so, is Gil go at it because of Boundaries to?

Also, are there ways of keeping people from dispelling your Techniques?

As soon as Gilgamesh learned of the existence of Reality Scripts, and that Adam Kadmon has the most powerful one, he set off to make his own, thus it was created relatively soon after his Supernal ascension (a few centuries, give or take).
How many people knew of Seder Hishtalshelus? Takako didn't seem to in the Ruby Ring, but Gil does?

He knew about Micael, the Agenda of Supremacy, and this? What exactly does Gil do in his free time?
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#29
Daneel, could you give me a brief summary of the Goddess Ninlil? Specifically, the original one that Lilith turned into a weapon (why did she do that, anyway?). I might need it for a scene I'm going to write (though that's pretty far off). Even just her Agendas or a rough ballpark of how powerful she was would be really helpful.
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#30
I highly doubt you need all this questions answered for the sake of your story, but I will still strive to answer as I prefer. Let's see...

Wait...they also had souls created by Adam? Is that true of all Supernals? Or is this specific to Divinities (it would explain why Adam has that Agenda...).

Is his possession of the Agenda of Souls the reason that only he can make souls or is his ability to make souls the reason he has that Agenda? Is it flat-out impossible for anyone else to make souls?
To Adam Kadmon there is no difference between humans and Supernals: they all have Souls, and all Souls come from Adam Kadmon [/HUGE SPOILER].

It is fundamentally impossible to "create" Souls. It is possible to manipulate them, but it is not easy (case in point, Shekinah's Script).


Can you give some examples of IW's that qualify because they're heroic, despite not being weapons?
Jaam-e Jam, the Underground Railroad, Noah's Arc, Koushiro's laptop.


Big Question!

Once, awhile back, I asked you if Dual Forces could be used prior to the current Holy War and you said no, it was new. Has that changed? I think so, since it was discovered during the Original Holy War.

If so, were they used in the previous Holy Wars? Since you said Ex Nihilo and the Ark were older then Gil, I think so.
Dual Forces were discovered way back in the first Holy War, yes. However, the Dual Forces that were used in the Last Holy War have not always been the same. Adam has played around with those Pseudo-Protocols for ages (and the Heavenly Host is not the only one who has gotten unexpected power-ups courtesy of Adam Kadmon). He would usually change a few Techniques every war, but the Last Holy War saw a rather major revamp of the Dual Force matrix, mostly due to the influx of many new Instrumental Weapons.


This leads me to a question:

Are all the known Dual Forces usable before the current Holy War? Could Metatron have summoned Gabriel and pulled out Merodach before Marduk existed?
Of course not, that doesn't make sense.


Wow. How did he fit them all in 12 km. Also, is it 12 km in diameter? Is that it's radius? Is it centered on Gil?
By summoning them in waves, obviously.

It's a radius of 12 km centered on a point within Gil's line of sight.


Also, I just want to make sure this works:

The 'total energy' of a Supernal is based off their Stamina and Reality/Dat Manipulation scores, right? And that amount of energy determines (among many other things) how long he can hold his Reality Script, right? So, if he opened his Reality Script and then used it to create Durendal and Ex Nihilo II and dual wielded them, thus boosting...pretty much all of his stats to 90 (and the rest almost that), his Stamina and Reality/Data Manipulation scores would also increase, giving him more energy, right?

Can he do that? Spend some energy in order to get a hell of a lot more energy? Or is that BadWrongFun?
This is perfectly legal, if horribly cheap as well.


How strong would something backed up by the weight of History, like those two examples, be?
Just like I refuse to assign levels to every single possible Agenda, I refuse to begin making up numbers for every single possible Instrumental Weapon. The magnitude of the power boost obviously depends on the historical weight of the item. *shrugs*


How many people knew about Micael before Adam/Takato explained it?
Firstly, Takato never explained Micael. The Three Wives and the Archangels would figure it out themselves from Takato's speeches in the days following COSMO_INFERIA.

Before that, the truth was only known by those who figured it out themselves: Gilgamesh, the cherub Dobriel and the Archangel Raphael (Taichi had to literally die to remember, though).


When was this, timeline-wise?
It was on the year 185 AD in the coast of what it is currently known as Guangdong province (southeast China).


Can you define used? I mean, if Kamael uses his strength to pick up, say, the Palladium (which was just a statue in myth, but I'm not sure what it is in GOSPEL) and beats someone to death with it, does that make it count? Or, in case it falls under the Heroic thing, if someone bashes people in the face with the Yata no Kagami, does that count?

I just want to know what counts as BadWrongFun.
Please refrain from asking questions which have already been answered.

If a tree branch and the bone of an ass count, why would not a statue or a mirror?


While that would have been horrible if she hadn't shut it down, it sadly denies the chance for hilarity and eternal bragging rights.
Adam has Supreme Humility, remember?


You mentioned above that Gil could beat Moloch by figuring out Pandora's Box? Is this what you meant?
No.


Also, are there ways of keeping people from dispelling your Techniques?
The better a Supernal is with Reality Code, the less likely his Programs can be dispelled before execution.


How many people knew of Seder Hishtalshelus? Takako didn't seem to in the Ruby Ring, but Gil does?
Everyone in the Supernal Realms knows the Adam's Reality Script. It's pretty much his signature Technique, after all.
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#31
Also, a question I forgot to answer some days ago.

Does it have an aria like other Scripts?
That which you call an "aria" is nothing but a password assignation for a specific sequence of Code. In other words, it ensures that, even if another Supernal somehow manages to reproduce the exact same code of a Technique and possesses the power and the appropriate Agendas to "fuel" it, the Thread of Destiny will not approve the code's execution. Note that Supernals usually make it so that the "aria" itself is not the password (otherwise anyone who listens to it would have a chance at using the Program). Tricks such as the first letter of each word in the aria, commanding the Thread of Destiny to read the aria backwards and removing specific letters from the aria to make the real password are common.

Gilgamesh does not use a password for his Script. He would like to see the fool who dares imitate him.

Adam does not need a password for his Script. It is fundamentally impossible for any other Supernal to reproduce Seder Hishtalshelus.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#32
I highly doubt you need all this questions answered for the sake of your story, but I will still strive to answer as I prefer. Let's see...
Ah, yeah; I got off track. Do you mind if I restart that list thing in the Gospel thread if I have any more questions, though?

The question about Ninlil is actually relavent, though (though to which extent depends on your answer). In addition, I'd like to ask if it is possible to effect the souls within Ea, Merodach, Enlil, and (most importantly) Ninlil.

If yes, are they still aware? Did their weaponization drive them mad? Could they be turned back into Supernals capable of independent action? If they were, would they still be divinities? That last question is made on the assumption that they aren't Divinities in their current form, since their lack of worship doesn' seem to affect their power.

To Adam Kadmon there is no difference between humans and Supernals: they all have Souls, and all Souls come from Adam Kadmon [/HUGE SPOILER].
That explains a lot. I assume this is why Takato didn't say anything about his thoughts when he first saw his wives in Random Stuff.

It is fundamentally impossible to "create" Souls. It is possible to manipulate them, but it is not easy (case in point, Shekinah's Script).
'With the exception of Adam Kadmon?'

Note: I'll move this to the Gospel thread if you give the okay; I just don't want to forget it.

Jaam-e Jam, the Underground Railroad, Noah's Arc, Koushiro's laptop.
If you give the okay, should I ask about these, or will they show up on the wiki?

Of course not, that doesn't make sense.
Okay, good; that's what I thought.

This is perfectly legal, if horribly cheap as well.
On Topic:

If he were to do so (that is, be cheap and boost his stats), how much longer would he be able to maintain his Reality Script?

(Also, how would his general combat ability be effected with a 90 in everything but Agility, which he'd have a 87 in? You said that, based on his stats, he'd be in the mid-90's in Takako's not-how-the-Thread-works Level system; would that change?)

Just like I refuse to assign levels to every single possible Agenda, I refuse to begin making up numbers for every single possible Instrumental Weapon. The magnitude of the power boost obviously depends on the historical weight of the item. *shrugs*
'Kay.

Firstly, Takato never explained Micael. The Three Wives and the Archangels would figure it out themselves from Takato's speeches in the days following COSMO_INFERIA.

Before that, the truth was only known by those who figured it out themselves: Gilgamesh, the cherub Dobriel and the Archangel Raphael (Taichi had to literally die to remember, though).
I see. So even Sophia didn't know, huh? I surprised Gil figured it out before her. I wonder how he found out in the first place?

It was on the year 185 AD in the coast of what it is currently known as Guangdong province (southeast China).
Can you tell me anything else about this fight, such as what happened to Gil after he lost?

Please refrain from asking questions which have already been answered.

If a tree branch and the bone of an ass count, why would not a statue or a mirror?
That's what I thought, but...

Wow, that's just hilariously abusive. So any IW Gil can't copy already he can (technically) just hunt it down and club someone with it to gain access to it? And they'll still work normally (that is, for their non-combat purpose)?

Gil is like a bottomless well of bad wrong fun. Takako said it was mainly for combat, but...if he really wanted to abuse it, he could...

Wow.

Adam has Supreme Humility, remember?
And Supreme Pride. And Self-Control, Recklessness, etc.

Could you explain what you meant? Gil will probably fight Moloch while Takato's in Limbo with Guilmon and Renamon, so it's actually kind of relavent.

Though, his ability to defeat Moloch doesn't really matter either way, for obvious (Adonamon) reasons.

The better a Supernal is with Reality Code, the less likely his Programs can be dispelled before execution.
And, to be sure, this is based on skill, not the Data Manipulation stat, right?

Everyone in the Supernal Realms knows the Adam's Reality Script. It's pretty much his signature Technique, after all.
So her not knowing wa a side effect of being constantly in the Lower Realms? I'm kiof surprised nobody told her. Well, that Sophia didn't tell her; she doesn't have that many friends and most Supernals probably wouldn't remember.

That which you call an "aria" is nothing but a password assignation for a specific sequence of Code. In other words, it ensures that, even if another Supernal somehow manages to reproduce the exact same code of a Technique and possesses the power and the appropriate Agendas to "fuel" it, the Thread of Destiny will not approve the code's execution. Note that Supernals usually make it so that the "aria" itself is not the password (otherwise anyone who listens to it would have a chance at using the Program). Tricks such as the first letter of each word in the aria, commanding the Thread of Destiny to read the aria backwards and removing specific letters from the aria to make the real password are common.

Gilgamesh does not use a password for his Script. He would like to see the fool who dares imitate him.

Adam does not need a password for his Script. It is fundamentally impossible for any other Supernal to reproduce Seder Hishtalshelus.
Does the lack of an aria have any meaningful effect on it's usage? I'm thinking mainly of casting time. Like, if we put Gil in one corner and Lilith in the other and had them use their Scripts, would Gil's lack of an incantation allow him to finish before his mind got raped or is it only the Code input into the Servers that matters?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#33
Well, there's not much I can say about the original Ninlil. Just like Enlil, I did not bother with them because they're dead and thus irrelevant. Concerning Ninlil, I only listed her Agendas, two of her Programs Gilgamesh greatly favors (remember his Protocol, Beloved Servant of the Gods) and a third Program I wrote when I was having fun making up Reality Scripts. I guess I can at least share that with you.

**********************************

Agendas: Air, Fertility, Sex, Trades, Wind


South Wind û Mother Knows All
Type:
Support (Divination)
Avg. Output: --
Range: 60 kilometers

A Technique that allows Ninlil to remotely manipulate objects by creating and manipulating wind currents around them and projecting her Existence through those currents. Gilgamesh uses this Technique to activate the effects of Instrumental Weapons he shoots upon contact with his enemies. Obviously, the Technique also grants awareness of the location of objects being controlled, even if they are outside the range of the normal senses. This Technique cannot seize control of objects already under the control of othersùit will not activate the Instrumental Weapon NinlilÆs enemy carries in his hand, for example.


South Wind û The Tragedy of Two
Type:
Anti-Army/Support
Avg. Output: 620
Max. Targets: all within a 90? cone up to 60 kilometers long

A straightforward but powerful wind-based attack. Horizontal high-pressure cyclones spread through an incredibly wide area. The raging winds will pick up objects and carry them along to drop them on the targets. Whole houses could be thrown in this mannerùGilgamesh uses this Technique to ôshootö the Instrumental Weapons he creates with his Reality Script like missiles.


Fake Reality Script: Nintur û The All-Accepting Womb of the God-Mother
Type:
Support
Avg. Output: --
Max. Targets: Unlimited

It is not a hard rule of Reality, but Agendas are fickle and selective, especially the most powerful ones. Furthermore, a Supernal by its very nature has affinities to specific Agendas. Basically, the relationship between Supernals and Agendas is a strict matchmaking process, and there are simply Agendas which do not fit certain Supernals, and vice versa. NinlilÆs most creative Technique, almost on the level of a Reality Script, allows her to use any Agenda.

The concept behind this Technique is ôIntimacyö. The closer the contact, the more Ninlil can gain from the target. A simple embrace is enough to claim the targetÆs energy, and kissing allows the extraction of the targetÆs Existence. It is the ultimate intimacy of penetration, orgasm and ejaculation that allows Ninlil to claim her sexual partnerÆs Agendas as she welcomes his semen into her womb.

Unlike vitality and Existence, Agendas are not ôdrainedö, only ôcopiedö. The target does not lose the ability to use the Agendas Ninlil learns from him. Multiple Agendas can be claimed in a single activation of the Technique, but only one Agenda can be taken from each of the targetÆs orgasms. Ninlil can engage in the sexual act with multiple partners in a single activation as well. Ninlil can use the claimed Agendas as her own for up to six days.

Needless to say, this Technique, if used while in the Lower Realms, can only take Agendas from male Incarnations, unless a female somehow carries the necessary equipmentùan element to penetrate Ninlil, plus sperm.

Lilith gained this Technique when she killed the original Ninlil, but she does not really need it thanks to her Reality Protocol, Rhapsody of Unlimited Perfection.

This Technique does not work when used on Adam Kadmon.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#34
Well, there's not much I can say about the original Ninlil. Just like Enlil, I did not bother with them because they're dead and thus irrelevant. Concerning Ninlil, I only listed her Agendas,
Looking at her Agenda's reminds me: does Lilith make a point of killing Goddesses of Sex and Beauty and stuff? I mean, she killed Ninlil, she killed Freya, and she may have killed Aphrodite. Is this a trend?

Or maybe they went after her?

two of her Programs Gilgamesh greatly favors (remember his Protocol, Beloved Servant of the Gods)
About this, could you tell me more about what Gil could do with this ability? Like, are there any Gods in particular with useful abilities he could draw on?

Also, could you define Mesopotamian? Is it limited to the Sumerians and their gods or do the Akkadians count?

Also, if I'm correct in my assumption, despite a number of people (like the Archdemons) inserting themselves as Deities (which is what I think they did), they do not count, right? I'm 99% sure they don't.

South Wind û Mother Knows All
Type: Support (Divination)
Avg. Output: --
Range: 60 kilometers

A Technique that allows Ninlil to remotely manipulate objects by creating and manipulating wind currents around them and projecting her Existence through those currents. Gilgamesh uses this Technique to activate the effects of Instrumental Weapons he shoots upon contact with his enemies. Obviously, the Technique also grants awareness of the location of objects being controlled, even if they are outside the range of the normal senses. This Technique cannot seize control of objects already under the control of othersùit will not activate the Instrumental Weapon NinlilÆs enemy carries in his hand, for example.
Whoa, wait. So Gil can activate IW's without touching them? Well, I guess I'd always thought that, but I hadn't realized something until just now.

If he activates the effect of an IW he's not touching, and that effect is directed at him, does it still work even though he's not touching it? Can he hold Enlil in one hand, Ninlil in the other, and still draw on the Power of Durendal, Ex Nihilo II, and Dainsleif to boost his stats?

Or is that BadWrongFun?

Fake Reality Script: Nintur û The All-Accepting Womb of the God-Mother
Type: Support
Avg. Output: --
Max. Targets: Unlimited

It is not a hard rule of Reality, but Agendas are fickle and selective, especially the most powerful ones. Furthermore, a Supernal by its very nature has affinities to specific Agendas. Basically, the relationship between Supernals and Agendas is a strict matchmaking process, and there are simply Agendas which do not fit certain Supernals, and vice versa. NinlilÆs most creative Technique, almost on the level of a Reality Script, allows her to use any Agenda.

The concept behind this Technique is ôIntimacyö. The closer the contact, the more Ninlil can gain from the target. A simple embrace is enough to claim the targetÆs energy, and kissing allows the extraction of the targetÆs Existence. It is the ultimate intimacy of penetration, orgasm and ejaculation that allows Ninlil to claim her sexual partnerÆs Agendas as she welcomes his semen into her womb.

Unlike vitality and Existence, Agendas are not ôdrainedö, only ôcopiedö. The target does not lose the ability to use the Agendas Ninlil learns from him. Multiple Agendas can be claimed in a single activation of the Technique, but only one Agenda can be taken from each of the targetÆs orgasms. Ninlil can engage in the sexual act with multiple partners in a single activation as well. Ninlil can use the claimed Agendas as her own for up to six days.

Needless to say, this Technique, if used while in the Lower Realms, can only take Agendas from male Incarnations, unless a female somehow carries the necessary equipmentùan element to penetrate Ninlil, plus sperm.

Lilith gained this Technique when she killed the original Ninlil, but she does not really need it thanks to her Reality Protocol, Rhapsody of Unlimited Perfection.

This Technique does not work when used on Adam Kadmon.
This is just a Fake Reality Script, though, right? Meaning that Gil can use it with that Protocol of his, right? Well, not to copy Agendas (except in the Higher Realms, I guess...), but draining energy and Existence is okay, right?

Also, what's the effect of draining Existence. Draining energy obviously means you have more and they have less and copying Agendas has and equally obvious effect, but what happens when you start sucking out Existence?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#35
First of all, you might want to check the GOSPEL site. I added a new section of the Timeline, as well as a few things to the existing sections.

Now...

Ah, yeah; I got off track. Do you mind if I restart that list thing in the Gospel thread if I have any more questions, though?
I do not mind the questions; most of the time they are interesting. Still, the proper thing to do would be to keep the relevant questions in this topic and keep any additional questions in the GOSPEL topic. Then again, I must ask you to keep your curiosity to a reasonable number of questions. Typing the answers takes quite a bit of the precious commodity we call time.

In addition, I'd like to ask if it is possible to effect the souls within Ea, Merodach, Enlil, and (most importantly) Ninlil.

If yes, are they still aware? Did their weaponization drive them mad? Could they be turned back into Supernals capable of independent action? If they were, would they still be divinities? That last question is made on the assumption that they aren't Divinities in their current form, since their lack of worship doesn' seem to affect their power.
It is possible, but, as I said, extremely difficult if you're not Adam. Specially in Ea's case; it would be pretty much impossible for anyone but Adam Kadmon to mess with that one. Soul manipulation is quite beyond Gilgamesh's skill and knowledge, for that matter.

With that said, the second Ninlil could probably tamper with the weapon, Ninlil. As the weapon's maker, Lilith could do so as well.

Ea and Merodach are more self-aware than Ninlil. This is something the maker of the weapon decides when crafting it. Enlil is almost completely inert, for example. Gilgamesh only experiences a small empathic surge of anger when he unleashes the weapon's power. Ninlil is only vaguely sentient; there is an identity there, but Lilith viciously suppressed it when reshaping the goddess' Existence. Ea is in permanent ecstasy; he got exactly what he wanted when he became a weapon, and being wielded fills him with bliss. Merodach is the most sentient of those weapons, but the transformation completely broke him. There is nothing in that "sentience" but the wish to change everything into nothingness. Seder Hishtalshelus could fix him, but Adam won't do that. At least not any time soon.

Of course, Ea, Enlil, Ninlil and Marduk are not Divinities in their current forms. They are Instrumental Weapons. They are Supernal, but neither Divinity nor Aeternal. Nothing short of Seder Hishtalshelus could return them to their original forms. Were Adam to do that, they would become Divinities again...unless he remade them into Aeternals, of course. In either case, they would come into being extremely weak.

That explains a lot. I assume this is why Takato didn't say anything about his thoughts when he first saw his wives in Random Stuff.
Indeed.

If you give the okay, should I ask about these, or will they show up on the wiki?
You don't need my input to find out why they are heroic. Goggle and your neurons can do that for you.

Well, except for Izzy's laptop.

If he were to do so (that is, be cheap and boost his stats), how much longer would he be able to maintain his Reality Script?

(Also, how would his general combat ability be effected with a 90 in everything but Agility, which he'd have a 87 in? You said that, based on his stats, he'd be in the mid-90's in Takako's not-how-the-Thread-works Level system; would that change?)
I know I have said this before, but the stats curve is pretty much logarithmic in nature. The difference between 84 and 85 is notably higher than the difference between 94 and 95. Thus, at the 90+ level, the actual values don't really matter that much. Look at Sophia and her Stamina, yet she still can own almost everything out there. Why? Because she has the absolute best Techniques after Seder Hishtalshelus.

Besides, the XANADU level does not change with bonuses due to equipment.

As for the duration of Gil's script: that Technique is extremely demanding, and making estimations of its duration is not a simple matter. In any case, the duration I gave you before took into account IW bonuses. Those are a given for Gil, really.

I see. So even Sophia didn't know, huh? I surprised Gil figured it out before her. I wonder how he found out in the first place?
Sophia and most of the Supernal Realms did not question the sudden appearance of a new Aspect. Gilgamesh did. That was the difference.

Then Micael began to throw Seder Hishtalshelus around, and that definitely made people think. Many people probably came up with the right answer after that, but there was no way to confirm it.

Can you tell me anything else about this fight, such as what happened to Gil after he lost?
There's nothing really important to say; it would have been less humiliating if Sophia had spanked him. Sword danmaku is not really useful against Sophia, no matter how awesome the swords may be.

So, he stayed with his face on the ground for a long time, wallowing in shame at being utterly beaten by a little girl. Then he moved on.

That's what I thought, but...

Wow, that's just hilariously abusive. So any IW Gil can't copy already he can (technically) just hunt it down and club someone with it to gain access to it? And they'll still work normally (that is, for their non-combat purpose)?

Gil is like a bottomless well of bad wrong fun. Takako said it was mainly for combat, but...if he really wanted to abuse it, he could...

Wow.
I know.

However, keep in mind that the condition is "being used in combat". If Gil takes, let's say, a tube of toothpaste and clubs someone with it, that does not count as "combat". That's just beating someone with toothpaste. If that someone decides to retaliate and the situation escalates beyond the first hit, then it becomes "combat". The Thread of Destiny is very picky in this matter.

This does not really diminish the Script's potential for abuse, but still.

Could you explain what you meant? Gil will probably fight Moloch while Takato's in Limbo with Guilmon and Renamon, so it's actually kind of relavent.
I meant exactly what I said: if Gil manages to figure out the condition to harm Moloch while Pandora's Box is active and also manages to fulfill it, then he wins. Otherwise Moloch wins.

And, to be sure, this is based on skill, not the Data Manipulation stat, right?
Both. After all, the faster your code is sent means the less time your opponent has to execute a counter-dispel.

Dispelling a Technique already in effect is easier, but by then it might already be too late.

So her not knowing wa a side effect of being constantly in the Lower Realms? I'm kiof surprised nobody told her. Well, that Sophia didn't tell her; she doesn't have that many friends and most Supernals probably wouldn't remember.
From where do you get the idea that Takako did not know about Seder Hishtalshelus? You really lost me there.

Does the lack of an aria have any meaningful effect on it's usage? I'm thinking mainly of casting time. Like, if we put Gil in one corner and Lilith in the other and had them use their Scripts, would Gil's lack of an incantation allow him to finish before his mind got raped or is it only the Code input into the Servers that matters?
The password IS Code input into the Servers. The Supernal Structures do not store the Reality Script Code in their memory, but upon receiving the password they can infer that a Script is on the way and that the one sending the Code is the one authorized to do so.

On your other question: Lilith wins, hands down. The main point of Milcarnia_Protocol is that it allows for smaller sequences of Code. Basically, if you write the code for Gardens of Babylon in standard Code and compare it with Lilith's Milcarnia Code, you would see that the Code in Milcarnia has less characters and is thus transmitted and processed faster.

This has nothing to do with skill or stats. Lilith is simply using a more efficient programming language.

Looking at her Agenda's reminds me: does Lilith make a point of killing Goddesses of Sex and Beauty and stuff? I mean, she killed Ninlil, she killed Freya, and she may have killed Aphrodite. Is this a trend?
Oh, so you noticed. Indeed, Lilith hunts down Supernals who share Agendas with her. She gains no substantial benefit from it; it's a hobby at best. She also kills Supernals to make Instrumental Weapons for her collection; that's what happened to Theseus, for example. In fact, Lilith was probably more interested in Aphrodite's and Freya's Instrumental Weapons than in their shared Agendas.

On another note, Aphrodite is dead. Completely and utterly. So is Hera, but that was because she pissed Lilith off.

Whoa, wait. So Gil can activate IW's without touching them? Well, I guess I'd always thought that, but I hadn't realized something until just now.

If he activates the effect of an IW he's not touching, and that effect is directed at him, does it still work even though he's not touching it? Can he hold Enlil in one hand, Ninlil in the other, and still draw on the Power of Durendal, Ex Nihilo II, and Dainsleif to boost his stats?

Or is that BadWrongFun?
It is "BadWrongFun", but that's how it works. That Program makes it so that his missile swords also counted as "wielded" for the purpose of activating their effects.

Keep in mind, however, that bonuses from multiple copies of the same weapon do not stack. Weapons with the same name (like DaÝnsleif and DaÝnsleif II) do not stack, either.

This is just a Fake Reality Script, though, right? Meaning that Gil can use it with that Protocol of his, right? Well, not to copy Agendas (except in the Higher Realms, I guess...), but draining energy and Existence is okay, right?

Also, what's the effect of draining Existence. Draining energy obviously means you have more and they have less and copying Agendas has and equally obvious effect, but what happens when you start sucking out Existence?
Indeed, Gil could use if he wanted to. "Fake Reality Script" is a term used for Techniques that either are as close to Reality Scripts as something can be without actually being one (like this one), or Techniques with extremely specific effects within the scope of Reality Scripts (like Kamael's and Tzaphkiel's Dual Force, Overdeath).

Also, while the female womb is referenced several times in the text, the Technique does not specifically demand vaginal penetration.

In RPG terms, loss of Existence leads to stat drain.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#36
First of all, you might want to check the GOSPEL site. I added a new section of the Timeline, as well as a few things to the existing sections.

Now...
Awesome; I'll comment on that in the Gospel thread, though.

I do not mind the questions; most of the time they are interesting. Still, the proper thing to do would be to keep the relevant questions in this topic and keep any additional questions in the GOSPEL topic. Then again, I must ask you to keep your curiosity to a reasonable number of questions. Typing the answers takes quite a bit of the precious commodity we call time.
Got it.

It is possible, but, as I said, extremely difficult if you're not Adam. Specially in Ea's case; it would be pretty much impossible for anyone but Adam Kadmon to mess with that one. Soul manipulation is quite beyond Gilgamesh's skill and knowledge, for that matter.

With that said, the second Ninlil could probably tamper with the weapon, Ninlil. As the weapon's maker, Lilith could do so as well.

Ea and Merodach are more self-aware than Ninlil. This is something the maker of the weapon decides when crafting it. Enlil is almost completely inert, for example. Gilgamesh only experiences a small empathic surge of anger when he unleashes the weapon's power. Ninlil is only vaguely sentient; there is an identity there, but Lilith viciously suppressed it when reshaping the goddess' Existence. Ea is in permanent ecstasy; he got exactly what he wanted when he became a weapon, and being wielded fills him with bliss. Merodach is the most sentient of those weapons, but the transformation completely broke him. There is nothing in that "sentience" but the wish to change everything into nothingness. Seder Hishtalshelus could fix him, but Adam won't do that. At least not any time soon.

Of course, Ea, Enlil, Ninlil and Marduk are not Divinities in their current forms. They are Instrumental Weapons. They are Supernal, but neither Divinity nor Aeternal. Nothing short of Seder Hishtalshelus could return them to their original forms. Were Adam to do that, they would become Divinities again...unless he remade them into Aeternals, of course. In either case, they would come into being extremely weak.
Okay, cool; that's very helpful. Any Soul Manipulation would probably be done by Takato (well, Adonamon), so Gil's skill wouldn't really matter. Ninlil herself being able to tamper with it gives me ideas, though.

You don't need my input to find out why they are heroic. Goggle and your neurons can do that for you.

Well, except for Izzy's laptop.
Oh, I know why they're heroic; I was just wondering what they do.

And Izzy used his laptop to...I don't remember how Takako put it, but break the laws of physics, or something like that.

I know I have said this before, but the stats curve is pretty much logarithmic in nature. The difference between 84 and 85 is notably higher than the difference between 94 and 95. Thus, at the 90+ level, the actual values don't really matter that much. Look at Sophia and her Stamina, yet she still can own almost everything out there. Why? Because she has the absolute best Techniques after Seder Hishtalshelus.

Besides, the XANADU level does not change with bonuses due to equipment.

As for the duration of Gil's script: that Technique is extremely demanding, and making estimations of its duration is not a simple matter. In any case, the duration I gave you before took into account IW bonuses. Those are a given for Gil, really.
Got it.

On a related note, how common are stat boosting weapons? You've listed four so far, but how about how many are there?

Most of them cap at 90 (that we've seen; I shouldn't make assumptions), but Dainsleif goes up to 96. Assuming the usual cap is 90, how many go above that? If needed, how high can Gil push his stats?

Sophia and most of the Supernal Realms did not question the sudden appearance of a new Aspect. Gilgamesh did. That was the difference.

Then Micael began to throw Seder Hishtalshelus around, and that definitely made people think. Many people probably came up with the right answer after that, but there was no way to confirm it.
Ah, so it's because Gil's the type to question things.

On the topic of Micael, however, can I ask what you think of SNI Micael? I don't need any stats or abilities for him, since he won't be doing any fighting, but what do you think of Micael as a character? Close to what you had in mind or nothing like it?

There's nothing really important to say; it would have been less humiliating if Sophia had spanked him. Sword danmaku is not really useful against Sophia, no matter how awesome the swords may be.

So, he stayed with his face on the ground for a long time, wallowing in shame at being utterly beaten by a little girl. Then he moved on.
That seems like a very Gil-ish reaction.

From where do you get the idea that Takako did not know about Seder Hishtalshelus? You really lost me there.
Ah, I might have misunderstood, but in The Ruby Ring, I think that's what it said. It was in...the chapter after Takato and Takako met, so...Chapter Two? Takako showed him the Treasury and he showed her SH, and she was surprised and excited.

I think. It's been awhile.

Oh, so you noticed. Indeed, Lilith hunts down Supernals who share Agendas with her. She gains no substantial benefit from it; it's a hobby at best. She also kills Supernals to make Instrumental Weapons for her collection; that's what happened to Theseus, for example. In fact, Lilith was probably more interested in Aphrodite's and Freya's Instrumental Weapons than in their shared Agendas.
This reminds me of smething completely different. Well, okay, its kind of related, in that it reminded me of Sif.

Gil has the Ability to use any weapon he predates, regardless of normal restrictions. Does this include stuff like Sif's hair IW, that (I think...) was only usable by woman? I think yes, but...

If so, what other restictions would it overcome?

On another note, Aphrodite is dead. Completely and utterly. So is Hera, but that was because she pissed Lilith off.
Ah. It takes something special to perma-kill Gods, though, right? Because their cults can bring them back, I think. Are Hera and Aphrodite in the position ch is where even if they had a Cult, it wouldn't matter?

If yes, it makes me wonder what they did...

It is "BadWrongFun", but that's how it works. That Program makes it so that his missile swords also counted as "wielded" for the purpose of activating their effects.

Keep in mind, however, that bonuses from multiple copies of the same weapon do not stack. Weapons with the same name (like DaÝnsleif and DaÝnsleif II) do not stack, either.
Well, it wouldn't really matter, even if they stacked, because Gil's stats cap out fast. Between Durendal and Ex Nihilo II, the only below 90 is Agility, and only by a few points. He can add Dainsleif to boost Dex to 95, which is below it's cap, but only by one point. Any other stat boosting weapons would be of limited use, unless they allow for breaking the 90 barrier like Dainsleif. Otherwise, even if he created twenty copies of each, he'd only get a few points in Agility and a point in Dex.

Indeed, Gil could use if he wanted to. "Fake Reality Script" is a term used for Techniques that either are as close to Reality Scripts as something can be without actually being one (like this one), or Techniques with extremely specific effects within the scope of Reality Scripts (like Kamael's and Tzaphkiel's Dual Force, Overdeath).

Also, while the female womb is referenced several times in the text, the Technique does not specifically demand vaginal penetration.
Ah, got it.

In RPG terms, loss of Existence leads to stat drain.
Does it cause a stat increase for the drainer?

And what happens when someone's Existence is drained? Does it 'grow back'? Is the stat boost/loss long lasting? Are there 'flavors' (I can't think of a better word...)
of Existence (like, if Gil drained Kamael, would he get an Offense boost or a set increase to all stats)?

Edit: I put some questions in the Gospel thread.
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#37
Ryuugi said:
Oh, I know why they're heroic; I was just wondering what they do.

And Izzy used his laptop to...I don't remember how Takako put it, but break the laws of physics, or something like that.
Oh, well, I guess I'll reveal their write-ups at some point.

Except for the laptop; that's just a joke, although nobody would be surprised if it actually became an Instrumental Weapon at some point in the future.

On a related note, how common are stat boosting weapons? You've listed four so far, but how about how many are there?

Most of them cap at 90 (that we've seen; I shouldn't make assumptions), but Dainsleif goes up to 96. Assuming the usual cap is 90, how many go above that? If needed, how high can Gil push his stats?
They're fairly common--stat boosting is the most straightforward "power" an Instrumental Weapon can have. The vast majority do not increase stats more than a single rank though.

The general rule is that IW bonuses cannot raise score above 90. The exceptions I think I can count with a single hand.

Ah, so it's because Gil's the type to question things.

On the topic of Micael, however, can I ask what you think of SNI Micael? I don't need any stats or abilities for him, since he won't be doing any fighting, but what do you think of Micael as a character? Close to what you had in mind or nothing like it?
This is a hard question to answer. Micael is highly malleable; unlike most Supernals, who Incarnate into individuals most likely to have personalities similar to theirs, Micael Projects herself in a person and adopts that person's personality as her own. During GOSPEL, Micael favors Natalia Andropova because she finds Natalia's personality charming. As a consequence, whenever he Projects himself into Natalia, he becomes an effusive bundle of perkiness with an otaku streak.

The "real" Micael I imagined as a lover of life and everything it entails. Like a child, she is mesmerized by everything as if every single thing she did was an entirely new experience. Yet he also carries himself with the serenity and peace of mind only enlightenment can instill on a person.

Also, yes, I freely switch between the masculine and feminine when referring to Micael.

Ah, I might have misunderstood, but in The Ruby Ring, I think that's what it said. It was in...the chapter after Takato and Takako met, so...Chapter Two? Takako showed him the Treasury and he showed her SH, and she was surprised and excited.
As I thought. Back then Takako was excited to see Takato could actually use Seder Hishtalshelus. It was pretty much the confirmation that things were going "according to plan".

This reminds me of smething completely different. Well, okay, its kind of related, in that it reminded me of Sif.

Gil has the Ability to use any weapon he predates, regardless of normal restrictions. Does this include stuff like Sif's hair IW, that (I think...) was only usable by woman? I think yes, but...

If so, what other restictions would it overcome?
His Reality Script allows him to create the Golden Tresses of Sif, and his Protocol, Original Weapons Master, allows him to use them.

Ah. It takes something special to perma-kill Gods, though, right? Because their cults can bring them back, I think. Are Hera and Aphrodite in the position ch is where even if they had a Cult, it wouldn't matter?

If yes, it makes me wonder what they did...
You are right. Divinities can exist even without a faith centered on them, as long as there is still acknowledgement of their existence.

Let us distinguish between "Death" and "Obliteration". If a Supernal "dies", Divinity or Aeternal, Incarnated or not, it simply reforms in the Higher Realms, most likely after losing some of his Existence and maybe an Agenda or two to the one who did the killing.

If a Divinity is Obliterated (and transmutation into an IW counts as this), it can be reborn from the faith of his followers. However, the new god will not be the same as the original. It will be a new god with the same identity and Agendas.

If an Aeternal is Obliterated, then he is gone forever.

We can define the Obliteration of a Supernal as "loss of all Existence and Agendas, and return of its Soul to Adam Kadmon".

On a side note, only two things are known to be capable of destroying Souls: Merodach and Seder Hishtalshelus.

Does it cause a stat increase for the drainer?

And what happens when someone's Existence is drained? Does it 'grow back'? Is the stat boost/loss long lasting? Are there 'flavors' (I can't think of a better word...)
of Existence (like, if Gil drained Kamael, would he get an Offense boost or a set increase to all stats)?
Yes, it does.

Suzie, for example, gained a total of 122 stat points throughout GOSPEL by draining other Supernals with her Eternity's End.

Note that Existence does not have a numerical value, and thus there is no Existence/Stat Points conversion rate. Existence increases naturally just by, well, existing, but that's a slow process, so losing Existence is always painful. Also, the nature of a stat boost provided by absorbed Existence does depend on the source of the Existence absorbed. So, yes, draining Kamael would most likely lead to an increase in Offense.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#38
Oh, well, I guess I'll reveal their write-ups at some point.

Except for the laptop; that's just a joke, although nobody would be surprised if it actually became an Instrumental Weapon at some point in the future.
Ah, got it.

They're fairly common--stat boosting is the most straightforward "power" an Instrumental Weapon can have. The vast majority do not increase stats more than a single rank though.

The general rule is that IW bonuses cannot raise score above 90. The exceptions I think I can count with a single hand.
Can Gil use any of those exceptions? Basically, do they predate him?

Actually, on that note, how many weapons predate Gil? From what I can tell, IW's really exploded onto the scene with the creation of Incarnation.

This is a hard question to answer. Micael is highly malleable; unlike most Supernals, who Incarnate into individuals most likely to have personalities similar to theirs, Micael Projects herself in a person and adopts that person's personality as her own. During GOSPEL, Micael favors Natalia Andropova because she finds Natalia's personality charming. As a consequence, whenever he Projects himself into Natalia, he becomes an effusive bundle of perkiness with an otaku streak.

The "real" Micael I imagined as a lover of life and everything it entails. Like a child, she is mesmerized by everything as if every single thing she did was an entirely new experience. Yet he also carries himself with the serenity and peace of mind only enlightenment can instill on a person.

Also, yes, I freely switch between the masculine and feminine when referring to Micael.
Okay. That's about what I had in mind.

As I thought. Back then Takako was excited to see Takato could actually use Seder Hishtalshelus. It was pretty much the confirmation that things were going "according to plan".
Ah! Had she not been sure Takato was Adam? I thought she'd noticed in the previous chapter.

You are right. Divinities can exist even without a faith centered on them, as long as there is still acknowledgement of their existence.

Let us distinguish between "Death" and "Obliteration". If a Supernal "dies", Divinity or Aeternal, Incarnated or not, it simply reforms in the Higher Realms, most likely after losing some of his Existence and maybe an Agenda or two to the one who did the killing.

If a Divinity is Obliterated (and transmutation into an IW counts as this), it can be reborn from the faith of his followers. However, the new god will not be the same as the original. It will be a new god with the same identity and Agendas.

If an Aeternal is Obliterated, then he is gone forever.

We can define the Obliteration of a Supernal as "loss of all Existence and Agendas, and return of its Soul to Adam Kadmon".

On a side note, only two things are known to be capable of destroying Souls: Merodach and Seder Hishtalshelus.
Then what happens when Lilith eats Souls like she did in Carthage? Are they just floating around inside her, or what?

Yes, it does.

Suzie, for example, gained a total of 122 stat points throughout GOSPEL by draining other Supernals with her Eternity's End.

Note that Existence does not have a numerical value, and thus there is no Existence/Stat Points conversion rate. Existence increases naturally just by, well, existing, but that's a slow process, so losing Existence is always painful. Also, the nature of a stat boost provided by absorbed Existence does depend on the source of the Existence absorbed. So, yes, draining Kamael would most likely lead to an increase in Offense.
This leads to a question I've had; can Supernal's increase their stats without taking Agendas? Can they increase their Existence by, I don't know, working out and increase Offense/Stamina? Or is it an Agda specific thing?

Also, are the stat boosts given to the drainer permanent? Do they fade away naturally over time, I mean?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#39
Ryuugi said:
Can Gil use any of those exceptions? Basically, do they predate him?
No, he can't. One of the things the Absolute Treaty did was catalog the weapons and techniques existing to that point and establish what could and could not be done. Far back in proto-history Supernals could do things that in current times can only be done by Seder Hishtalshelus, and many of the oldest Instrumental Weapons were sealed by the Treaty.


Actually, on that note, how many weapons predate Gil? From what I can tell, IW's really exploded onto the scene with the creation of Incarnation.
That would be because IW's are born from legends and heroes, and those require people to build and record those tales. Weapons from before mankind were not bound to specific figures or stories. Only to concepts and extremely arcane effects.


Then what happens when Lilith eats Souls like she did in Carthage? Are they just floating around inside her, or what?
They were transmuted into Existence or raw energy (or both).


This leads to a question I've had; can Supernal's increase their stats without taking Agendas? Can they increase their Existence by, I don't know, working out and increase Offense/Stamina? Or is it an Agda specific thing?

Also, are the stat boosts given to the drainer permanent? Do they fade away naturally over time, I mean?
You can think of Existence as "experience points". A Supernal has a certain amount of Existence, which is then distributed between his Soul, his physical form, his stats, his Agendas, his Techniques...everything that he is.

Having Agendas does not directly increase a Supernal's power. Instead, the Agendas a Supernal has "define his maximum stats", which he can then aim to reach by "buying them" with Existence. This is just a metaphor and not to be taken literally, though. Existence is not even a formal concept among Supernals, unlike "Agenda".

The slow and easy way to gain Existence is by "living your role in Reality".So, yes, Sophia gains Existence by being cute, and Gilgamesh by being heroic and generally awesome, for example. The fast and harder way to gain Existence would be taking it from other Supernals. However, that almost always means killing an Incarnation and taking a portion of their Existence, Highlander-style. Few Supernals (like Athena!Suzie, for example) have ways to drain Existence without having to kill their victims, and even they need to greatly weaken them before such methods can be used. Of course, stat increases "purchased" with Existence drained from other Supernals are permanent, as the Existence gain was permanent as well.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#40
No, he can't. One of the things the Absolute Treaty did was catalog the weapons and techniques existing to that point and establish what could and could not be done. Far back in proto-history Supernals could do things that in current times can only be done by Seder Hishtalshelus, and many of the oldest Instrumental Weapons were sealed by the Treaty.
It's not relavent to the story, but will you ever expand on these techniques and IWs?

Also, why were they sealed? What is forbiddan to modern Supernals? That last question might be relavent.

You can think of Existence as "experience points". A Supernal has a certain amount of Existence, which is then distributed between his Soul, his physical form, his stats, his Agendas, his Techniques...everything that he is.

Having Agendas does not directly increase a Supernal's power. Instead, the Agendas a Supernal has "define his maximum stats", which he can then aim to reach by "buying them" with Existence. This is just a metaphor and not to be taken literally, though. Existence is not even a formal concept among Supernals, unlike "Agenda".
What are Gil's 'maximum stats'?

The slow and easy way to gain Existence is by "living your role in Reality".So, yes, Sophia gains Existence by being cute, and Gilgamesh by being heroic and generally awesome, for example. The fast and harder way to gain Existence would be taking it from other Supernals. However, that almost always means killing an Incarnation and taking a portion of their Existence, Highlander-style. Few Supernals (like Athena!Suzie, for example) have ways to drain Existence without having to kill their victims, and even they need to greatly weaken them before such methods can be used. Of course, stat increases "purchased" with Existence drained from other Supernals are permanent, as the Existence gain was permanent as well.
Is this true of Nintur?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#41
It's not relavent to the story, but will you ever expand on these techniques and IWs?
While the others might be mentioned at some point, their write-ups are not a priority. They're not relevant, as you said. The exception is Astaroth's Sarvannihil, because it was actually used against Justimon. Twice.


Also, why were they sealed? What is forbiddan to modern Supernals? That last question might be relavent.
They were sealed because either 1) They were too powerful to be allowed to be used repeatedly; or 2) Their use was detrimental to Reality. Or both, of course.

An important point, though: in the case of Techniques, the Code was deleted and any attempts at reinserting the code were rejected by SAMYA_JARA. In the case of weapons, however, ôsealingö only means that attempts at activating the weaponÆs effect no longer worked. The weapons still remain in the hands of their owners.

When Takato temporarily destroyed the Treaty in his rage, Astaroth seized the chance and created a loophole in the rules which allowed him to use his Sarvannihil even after the Treaty was restored.

As for whatÆs forbidden. Things like:
- Irrevocable destruction of Reality.
- Disassembling of Creation into Chaos.
- Direct tampering of the Supernal Structures (Sophia being exempted from this rule; Adam raped this rule with his Supreme cock).
- Direct tampering of the Akashic Records (Sophia and Tzaphkiel exempted from this rule)
- Direct tampering of the Boundary between Heaven and Hell.
- Direct tampering of the Boundary between the Higher and Lower Realms.
- Direct tampering of the Boundary of the Central Sphere of Heaven.
- Creation of new Supernal Structures.
- Creation of Instrumental Weapons with effects forbidden in this list.
- Creation of separate Realities, regardless of size (Reality Scripts are exempted, as they are generally short-lasting. Treasury of Nitocris was a special situation: while harmless, it is a permanent effect and demanded quite a bit of effort to be tolerated by SAMYA_JARA).
- Forcible extraction of Agendas (note that, while there are ways to drain Existence without killing the target, there are no ways to forcibly remove someoneÆs Agendas).
- Simultaneous manipulation of multiple timelines (this only applies to Supernals with the power to manipulate time, of course).

Things like that.


What are Gil's 'maximum stats'?
The ones he currently has.


Is this true of Nintur?
What does the writeup say? Then again, you could think of the orgasm as a form of ôweakeningö.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#42
They were sealed because either 1) They were too powerful to be allowed to be used repeatedly; or 2) Their use was detrimental to Reality. Or both, of course.
But...the Absolute Treaty didn't happen until after Two Holy Wars, right?

In that case, wow, the First and Second must have been something. Well, maybe not the second.

An important point, though: in the case of Techniques, the Code was deleted and any attempts at reinserting the code were rejected by SAMYA_JARA. In the case of weapons, however, ôsealingö only means that attempts at activating the weaponÆs effect no longer worked. The weapons still remain in the hands of their owners.
So they're still around (the IWs), just useless? Who owns weapons like those?

When Takato temporarily destroyed the Treaty in his rage, Astaroth seized the chance and created a loophole in the rules which allowed him to use his Sarvannihil even after the Treaty was restored.
I'm sure you'll explain this on the Wiki at some point, so I won't ask, yet.

I'm not even gonna pretend I'm not curious, though.

As for whatÆs forbidden. Things like:
- Irrevocable destruction of Reality.
- Disassembling of Creation into Chaos.
- Direct tampering of the Supernal Structures (Sophia being exempted from this rule; Adam raped this rule with his Supreme cock).
- Direct tampering of the Akashic Records (Sophia and Tzaphkiel exempted from this rule)
- Direct tampering of the Boundary between Heaven and Hell.
- Direct tampering of the Boundary between the Higher and Lower Realms.
- Direct tampering of the Boundary of the Central Sphere of Heaven.
- Creation of new Supernal Structures.
- Creation of Instrumental Weapons with effects forbidden in this list.
- Creation of separate Realities, regardless of size (Reality Scripts are exempted, as they are generally short-lasting. Treasury of Nitocris was a special situation: while harmless, it is a permanent effect and demanded quite a bit of effort to be tolerated by SAMYA_JARA).
- Forcible extraction of Agendas (note that, while there are ways to drain Existence without killing the target, there are no ways to forcibly remove someoneÆs Agendas).
- Simultaneous manipulation of multiple timelines (this only applies to Supernals with the power to manipulate time, of course).

Things like that.
I'll ask about these in the GOSPEL thread eventually; I just want to put this here as a note to remind me to do so.

The ones he currently has.
Can this be assumed of most of the really powerful Supernals?

Also, these limits can change if he gets new Agendas; but does a cange always mean an increase or is there the potential risk of a decrease?

What does the writeup say? Then again, you could think of the orgasm as a form of ôweakeningö.
Well, you don't even need that to steal Existence. I just wanted to make sure the stuff I bolded didn't contradict it.

Also, another question about Gil's Protocols:

Legendary Boon û Partial Divinity Exalted
Description: Gilgamesh has always been described as a 2/3 demigod, but he became an Aeternal because he was never worshipped as a divinity. However, the blood of gods runs in his veins and has become a part of his Supernal Existence. He can be considered a Divinity instead of an Aeternal when circumstances would make that convenient to him. Basically, effects particularly beneficial to Divinities would favor him, while effects especially detrimental to Divinities would consider him an Aeternal.
Just to make sure; does this include stuff like drawing power from Worship (not that he needs or would really benefit from it)? Does it mean he can use Fundamental Translocation through (Agenda)? If Gil died, but had a cult, would a new (and not at all the old Gilgamesh) appear?

Basically, what are the limits of this ability?
 

Daneel Rush

Well-Known Member
#43
But...the Absolute Treaty didn't happen until after Two Holy Wars, right?

In that case, wow, the First and Second must have been something. Well, maybe not the second.
Well of course the First Holy War was nasty. Imagine that in GOSPEL every single one of the Archangels and Archdemon had a copy of Merodach and the willingness to swing it around.

It was worse. Sophia and Lilith almost broke the Universe when they fought. Metatron actually had to stop his sister from doing the same when beating LuciferÆs generals.

Everyone was really pissed off.


So they're still around (the IWs), just useless? Who owns weapons like those?
Exactly.

There are very few owners of Forbidden Instruments, as you might expect. Reality Scripts are still rarer, though. Lilith and Shekinah each have one. Sophia has two. MetatronÆs original EdenÆs Blade was a Forbidden Instrument before he downgraded it (he likes to follow DA RULEZ). All the Archdemons have one, with the exception of Belphegor (who was too lazy to make one) and the Angels of Prostitution (who donÆt have the skills to make one), but they are mostly downgraded except for AstarothÆs. The Archangels used to have Forbidden Instruments, but Sophia destroyed them all after the First Holy War, not unlike a mother taking away her naughty childrenÆs favorite toys.

Then thereÆs Dup Shimati and Merodach, and thatÆs about all of them. These two are special cases: the former is automatically downgraded instead of being outright rejected when someone activates it; and the latter simply screws the rules.


Can this be assumed of most of the really powerful Supernals?

Also, these limits can change if he gets new Agendas; but does a cange always mean an increase or is there the potential risk of a decrease?
This can be assumed of most Supernals period. It makes sense for every Supernal to have stats as high as they can possibly be, and itÆs their major focus. Imagine that you played a RPG where you used the same ôcharacter creationö points both to pick your stats and choose your skills and powers. Base stats would generally take higher precedence, right?


Just to make sure; does this include stuff like drawing power from Worship (not that he needs or would really benefit from it)? Does it mean he can use Fundamental Translocation through (Agenda)? If Gil died, but had a cult, would a new (and not at all the old Gilgamesh) appear?

Basically, what are the limits of this ability?
This Protocol is basically meant to define GilgameshÆs ôstatusö for the purpose of the effects of other Techniques and Protocols. For the purpose ôreceiving his initial set of Agendas and Protocolsö, he was an Aeternal. Thus, he does not have Fundamental Translocation through (Agenda), and Partial Divinity Exalted does not permanently rewrite SAMYA_JARAÆs records.

Any Supernal can draw power from worship.
 
Top