Something I just realised about Usagi and co.

seitora

Well-Known Member
#1
Usagi, pre-series, has no real sob story.

That's a pretty big thing now that I think about it. So many bloody damn shonen heroes have some sort of sob story, though a lot of them don't really let them affect it much.

Even most of the other Senshi have some sort of sob story (only Minako besides Usagi has both parents around), but not to the extent you see in a lot of fiction, pulp and otherwise. Hotaru and to some degree Setsuna are the only ones with tragic backgrounds (and arguably, Chibi-Usa).
 

Fellgrave

Well-Known Member
#2
*opens mouth, raises finger*

...

*closes mouth, lowers finger*

...

Huh. Never really thought of it, but, yeah. Of course, I wouldnt necessarily call Sailor Moon a Shonen manga, even though it shares most traits with it.

Does getting killed by Beryl in a past life count as pre-series?
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#3
Well no, it's a shoujo manga, though it still falls into that same overarching action manga genre.

The whole pre-series plot I wouldn't really bother counting either.
 

Fellgrave

Well-Known Member
#4
I think that in its original form, and for a part of the initial story, that Sailor Moon held more to the shoujo-ish standard. As it went along it went more and more shonen. But originally it was shoujo, hence the main character not having a depressing backstory.

If the series had started from the begininng as a shonen manga, then yeah, I'd say it would be a safe bet that Usagi would also have something bad happen to her in the past.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#5
Oh, Usagi and co. have lots of bad things happen to them during the run of the manga (how many times have good guys been killed, sometimes not revived at all, and/or been brainwashed precisely? Hotaru gets the worst of it all imo). Just not pre-manga, which is a big thing for shonen that likes having its orphans and tragic pasts.
 

scriviner

Well-Known Member
#6
Maybe things were slightly different back when SM first came out?
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#7
Luke Skywalker didn't have a tragic backstory, either. Tragedy struck after he refused the Call, pushing him to take it in the end, but prior to that, he didn't have a mother/father/sister die protecting him or whatever to his knowledge.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#8
goldenarms said:
Luke Skywalker didn't have a tragic backstory, either. Tragedy struck after he refused the Call, pushing him to take it in the end, but prior to that, he didn't have a mother/father/sister die protecting him or whatever to his knowledge.
Star Wars is a shonen manga?!
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#9
seitora said:
goldenarms said:
Luke Skywalker didn't have a tragic backstory, either. Tragedy struck after he refused the Call, pushing him to take it in the end, but prior to that, he didn't have a mother/father/sister die protecting him or whatever to his knowledge.
Star Wars is a shonen manga?!


You... didn't know? :eek:
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#10
Well, I expected an adaptation. Japan adapted Romeo and Juliet, for Isis' sake.
 

da_fox2279

California Crackpot
#11
... Did Adam Warren do that cover?!

I only ask 'cause it looks a lot like his artstyle.
 

Fellgrave

Well-Known Member
#12
Doubt it. Either way it makes me cringe to look at.

Back onto the main topic (Since I am not a major Star Wars fan, Thrawn novels excluded): Shonen trends in otherwise non-Shonen mangas. Any more obvious and less obvious examples?
 

shiki

Well-Known Member
#13
Just like anything else that people have created, manga borrows a lot from other manga and other works of the time that it is published. It doesn't matter what demographic is is for or which publisher prints it.

This is why having a ronin main character was popular in the 90s before it became more popular to have a hikki in the 2000s which leads to the current trend of having freeters in the start of this decade. That is when it isn't set with a character still in school...

Also, not all heroes need to have crappy backgrounds. Sure, it is commonly used to give someone a reason to act but Usagi wasn't doing the hero thing for fame, glory, mystery or revenge. She was doing it to protect her friends and continued because she matured and her role grow.

Honestly, It is still relatively common to have an average happy person thrust into a conflict beyond their understanding and still succeeding while being like a fish out of water. It is just another way to go about it.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#14
shiki said:
Also, not all heroes need to have crappy backgrounds. Sure, it is commonly used to give someone a reason to act but Usagi wasn't doing the hero thing for fame, glory, mystery or revenge.
Ummm... I assumed she was doing it to be a princess and to get the hunk... (well.. hunk to her, not sure Mamoru really classes as hunk per se.)
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#15
seitora said:
Usagi, pre-series, has no real sob story.
Stereotypically, the central protagonist of a Magical Girl Series has a happy home life with no real problems, just something like ennui; it's the side-kicks that have emotional problems, mostly for the main character to help them out with.

That's true of Nanoha, Madoka, even friggin' Prisma Ilya.

Well, Sailor Moon might be the series that codified that trope though.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#16
Let me see....Clark Kent (before Nu52) had both parents and a fairly happy home life.

Cole McGrath's tragedy was also his call to action, where as 'Alex Mercer'...strictly speaking, was born as a result of one man's attempt at revenge.

Sora and Riku from Kingdom hearts (if I recall correctly) have nothing tragic in their background before the incident that starts the game series. Same with the hero from Suikoden 4 (I think) who had both Parents a lovely sister...then traitors to the throne wrecked everything.

Hmmm....let me ask you this, is there a difference between a tragic background and a tragedy that serves as a call to action?

Edit:

Ah, Miles Morales, Jaime Reyes and Virgil Hawkins are some more heroes who had no personal tragedies before their call to action....though afterwards.....
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#17
daniel_gudman said:
Stereotypically, the central protagonist of a Magical Girl Series has a happy home life with no real problems, just something like ennui
What always struck me as interesting about this - in the context of Sailor Moon - is that this introduction of trauma into her life (e.g. the trauma of being an ordinary fifteen year-old suddenly thrust into life-or-death situations with monsters, and all by herself at the start of it) can plausibly be stated to be the cause of the Purification in the future.

That is, it's her massive overreaction to the fact that she's still, deep in her heart, carrying around that childhood fear that being a magical girl caused her. In response to it, she's desperately trying to make the entire world into a safe place.

...also, apologies for the necro (though given how quiet things are lately, a necro here and there doesn't seem like a bad thing).
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#18
The necro I can forgive, the use of a fanon interpretation of 'Purification' will take a little more. The following is a quote from one of our resident Sailor Moon experts/fan

Edit: Anime-Purification is to REMOVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES effecting the mind purification in the anime does not effect their innate personality. We have had 5 seasons worth of proof of that. It removes stuff like the dark energy that pushed all the Ayakashi sisters to eventually try to kill themselves when they got depressed or the magic that transformed people into monsters. Literally it is in the anime ANTI-BRAINWASHING.
 
#19
Ordo said:
Let me see....Clark Kent (before Nu52) had both parents and a fairly happy home life.

Cole McGrath's tragedy was also his call to action, where as 'Alex Mercer'...strictly speaking, was born as a result of one man's attempt at revenge.

Sora and Riku from Kingdom hearts (if I recall correctly) have nothing tragic in their background before the incident that starts the game series. Same with the hero from Suikoden 4 (I think) who had both Parents a lovely sister...then traitors to the throne wrecked everything.

Hmmm....let me ask you this, is there a difference between a tragic background and a tragedy that serves as a call to action?

Edit:

Ah, Miles Morales, Jaime Reyes and Virgil Hawkins are some more heroes who had no personal tragedies before their call to action....though afterwards.....
The Comic Book characters have sorta variable backgrounds where they DID have tragedy. DCAU!Virgil lost his mom to gang warfare, pre-crisis Clark had his parents die from OLD AGE of all things in his backstory, and Jaime... well I want to say he was ok, but his first arc had some major angst screwing around with the abandoned by the other heroes leading to the whole lost Year thing, plus I think New 52 Jaime probably had pointless angst added to his backtory for cheap drama, they screwed with every other aspect of his character and supporting cast for that purpose after all.

Also, as far as the original thought for this thread, Didn't SM!Usagi commit suicide? Even if her reincarnation has no conscious memories of that there's probably some form of continuity between incarnations, down in the subconscious if nothing else. That sort of despair and loss could probably count? Though in fairness that whole suicide thing always irritated me about SM!Usagi.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#20
Ordo said:
The necro I can forgive, the use of a fanon interpretation of 'Purification' will take a little more. The following is a quote from one of our resident Sailor Moon experts/fan

Edit: Anime-Purification is to REMOVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES effecting the mind purification in the anime does not effect their innate personality. We have had 5 seasons worth of proof of that. It removes stuff like the dark energy that pushed all the Ayakashi sisters to eventually try to kill themselves when they got depressed or the magic that transformed people into monsters. Literally it is in the anime ANTI-BRAINWASHING.
Since I've never even watched more than a few episodes of the anime (though I did watch all 50+ episodes of Sailor Moon Abridged!), where da fuq does this Great Freeze thing come from as well?
 

da_fox2279

California Crackpot
#21
seitora said:
Ordo said:
The necro I can forgive, the use of a fanon interpretation of 'Purification' will take a little more. The following is a quote from one of our resident Sailor Moon experts/fan

Edit: Anime-Purification is to REMOVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES effecting the mind purification in the anime does not effect their innate personality. We have had 5 seasons worth of proof of that. It removes stuff like the dark energy that pushed all the Ayakashi sisters to eventually try to kill themselves when they got depressed or the magic that transformed people into monsters. Literally it is in the anime ANTI-BRAINWASHING.
Since I've never even watched more than a few episodes of the anime (though I did watch all 50+ episodes of Sailor Moon Abridged!), where da fuq does this Great Freeze thing come from as well?
From what I remember, it was mentioned by Ghost!Endymion during the Inner's first trip to CT. I think. Though that did confuse me as well.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#22
Ordo said:
The necro I can forgive, the use of a fanon interpretation of 'Purification' will take a little more. The following is a quote from one of our resident Sailor Moon experts/fan

Edit: Anime-Purification is to REMOVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES effecting the mind purification in the anime does not effect their innate personality. We have had 5 seasons worth of proof of that. It removes stuff like the dark energy that pushed all the Ayakashi sisters to eventually try to kill themselves when they got depressed or the magic that transformed people into monsters. Literally it is in the anime ANTI-BRAINWASHING.
I'd like to ask that anonymous expert what they're citing specifically to back this up.

I'm not saying that their interpretation is necessarily wrong, per se. From what I can recall, the anime was actually very light on what exactly the Purification was...which is sort of the problem. There's no indication that it was an anti-brainwashing effect, other than positing "this is what we usually see Sailor Moon do, so it must have been that." It's an assumption, one which doesn't necessarily follow.

The reason it doesn't necessarily follow is that, in the anime, we're essentially told that some people left the Earth in response to the Purification. Given that we're then shown that these people are essentially benevolent until they arrive at the corrupting influence of planet Nemesis (e.g. Safir and Demando seem like good people), it stands to reason that the Purification was something other than a giant anti-brainwashing spell.

Now, there are certainly counter-arguments to be made here, such as the fact that Demando and Safir are shown to be children on Nemesis, which questions if perhaps the adults who fled from it initially were of a darker persuation (though Demando says that he remembers the larger flowers on Earth).

However, most of the disagreements that I've seen with this regard have more to do with referencing the manga interpretation of the events, which are far more clear-cut in what they presented. Largely (if I remember correctly, and trying to get through some bad translations) that an evil dictator rose to fight Crystal Tokyo, and he and his followers were eventually defeated and exiled off-world...so the event seems to be largely political in nature.

That said, I think that there's certainly still room for (in the anime continuity) saying that the Purification was the triumph of the "my way or the highway" mentality.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#23
Alzrius said:
Ordo said:
The necro I can forgive, the use of a fanon interpretation of 'Purification' will take a little more. The following is a quote from one of our resident Sailor Moon experts/fan

Edit: Anime-Purification is to REMOVE OUTSIDE INFLUENCES effecting the mind purification in the anime does not effect their innate personality. We have had 5 seasons worth of proof of that. It removes stuff like the dark energy that pushed all the Ayakashi sisters to eventually try to kill themselves when they got depressed or the magic that transformed people into monsters. Literally it is in the anime ANTI-BRAINWASHING.
I'd like to ask that anonymous expert what they're citing specifically to back this up.
The posters name is Seiya, you can find her comments on a bunch of threads in the Sailor Moon section. I don't know if she's paying attention to this one though

The reason it doesn't necessarily follow is that, in the anime, we're essentially told that some people left the Earth in response to the Purification.
Looking through wikipedia and wiki moon, it looks like those people left earth because Usagi granted all humans 1000 year life spans and they found that unnatural so they moved to nemesis.

What follows is personal opinion.

I HATE dark interpretations of Sailor Moon. I dislike that information is either misunderstood or twisted in interpretation to justify casting USagi and Co as villains. The funny part is, I am not even a big fan of Sailor Moon but have come to hate these types of stories with a passion, partially because there are so many of them.

It's like what happened to Marvel/DC comics in the 90's. A person comes up with a Deconstruction of comic book heroes then everyone does it trying to be 'gritty' and 'mature'. They all miss the next logical step which is Reconstruction.

The following quote sums up my feelings on Sailor Moon Deconstructions at this point.

"It strikes me that the only reason to take apart a pocket watch, or a car engine, aside from the simple delight of disassembly, is to find out how it works. To understand it, so you can put it back together again better than before, or build a new one that goes beyond what the old one could do. We've been taking apart the superhero for ten years or more; it's time to put it back together and wind it up, time to take it out on the road and floor it, see what it'll do."
— Kurt Busiek, Astro City, on the whole point of Deconstruction.
...and that does fascinate me, the idea of putting Sailor Moon back together in a way that accounts for 'realism' but also shows how it could work as intended.

Considering the debates our society is having even now about cloning, stem cell research, and having a child to save another child I can totally see a group of people leaving because they find being 'granted' 1000 year life spans at the wave of a hand to be offensive. Some might site religion, others might feel that humanity shouldn't take a short cute via magic and should focus on accomplishing the same via science. There are interesting storylines to follow that do not require you turning Usagi into a villain.

Heck, If I liked Sailor Moon a little more I would likely set a story in the future in which an expanding humanity under Usagi's guidance begins to bump heads with the Jurian Empire. I wouldn't even have to make either side evil, just imply that the Jurian colonist aren't happy about humanities rapid expanse, and the Human colonist are getting tired of the Jurians blocking their attempts to expand. This leads to the respective rulers of each nation (Usagi and Tenchi) to try and hash out an agreement that benefits both sides, while people within their own government (more radical or hawkish) work to sabotage their efforts.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#24
Ordo said:
The posters name is Seiya, you can find her comments on a bunch of threads in the Sailor Moon section. I don't know if she's paying attention to this one though
Necro-ing a bunch of old threads to argue this particular chestnut again seems like it'd be going beyond the pale. That said, I disagree with Seiya's interpretation.

Ordo said:
Looking through wikipedia and wiki moon, it looks like those people left earth because Usagi granted all humans 1000 year life spans and they found that unnatural so they moved to nemesis.
On a personal note, I cringed a little at the reference to Wikipedia and the Sailor Moon wiki. While I normally applaud reference wikis, I find that they're not very good at referencing anime in general and Sailor Moon in particular. I say that because I remember the brouhaha that erupted over Ian Andres Miller's changes to the Wikipedia article on Sailor Moon - his changes were all technically correct, but the fandom kept undoing them because they flew in the face of what they "knew."

Personally, I prefer to go to his website, Dies Gaudii, for Sailor Moon information now (though it's silent on this particular issue).

That said, I do remember long lives being an issue, now that you mention it. It's still silent on issues of anti-brainwashing; it's also part of the manga, not anime, continuity.

Ordo said:
What follows is personal opinion.

I HATE dark interpretations of Sailor Moon. I dislike that information is either misunderstood or twisted in interpretation to justify casting USagi and Co as villains. The funny part is, I am not even a big fan of Sailor Moon but have come to hate these types of stories with a passion, partially because there are so many of them.

It's like what happened to Marvel/DC comics in the 90's. A person comes up with a Deconstruction of comic book heroes then everyone does it trying to be 'gritty' and 'mature'. They all miss the next logical step which is Reconstruction.

The following quote sums up my feelings on Sailor Moon Deconstructions at this point.
I understand your opinion, but I disagree. I say that largely because I see Sailor Moon itself (particularly in its anime continuity) as being so utterly black-and-white that it cries out for shades of grey that come from, to use the terms you introduced, Deconstruction.

There's a reason why that idea is so popular that it keeps being referenced in Sailor Moon, after all. Personally, I loathe the idea of unnuanced goodness. While evil can be irredeemable in its presentation, moral virtue strikes me as being overbearing if it's not self-aware, and self-awareness requires introspection, which necessitates that there be some sort of cause to start introspecting in the first place, such as doubt, insecurity, or anxiety as to whether or not someone really does occupy the moral high ground in the first place.

Sailor Moon doesn't have that. The protagonists never question their actions, motivations, or consequences. Even killing their enemies never warrants the slightest pathos. Moreover, the series never suggests that they're wrong to do so; their actions are clearly portrayed as always being virtuous.

The cast of Sailor Moon are, save for a lack of proselytizing about their cause, complete and utter fanatics. Hence, they are (to me) crying out for Deconstruction to be introduced.

Now, your dislike seems to be that this is never taken to its logical conclusion of Reconstruction. I can understand that, but there's no real impetus to do so within the context of what we're shown. Deconstruction can be presented as being separate from the character's view of themselves and the world - it can be the series of consequences that they never see/understand.

Reconstruction, by contrast, requires them to come to a realization about nuanced impact of their actions and what it means for themselves and the people around them. Without that realization, there is no turning point to begin Reconstructing themselves into someone that takes those details into account and so can actually occupy the moral high ground that they only thought they did before.

We see no such evidence of any sort of self-realization within the context of Sailor Moon. Ergo, purely with regards to analyzing the characters, setting, and story itself, you can't get to Reconstruction. (Though fics certainly can.)

...and that does fascinate me, the idea of putting Sailor Moon back together in a way that accounts for 'realism' but also shows how it could work as intended.
Again, I don't see her having that level of self-awareness that'd let you (easily) put the good guys there. It could work as a fic, probably without undue difficulty, but it's not what I see when I look at the series as it is.

Ordo said:
Considering the debates our society is having even now about cloning, stem cell research, and having a child to save another child I can totally see a group of people leaving because they find being 'granted' 1000 year life spans at the wave of a hand to be offensive. Some might site religion, others might feel that humanity shouldn't take a short cute via magic and should focus on accomplishing the same via science. There are interesting storylines to follow that do not require you turning Usagi into a villain.
Misguided heroism is not necessarily the same as villainy. It's the difference between a large splash of grey rather than inverting white into black.

That said, the idea you propose isn't a bad one, and it seems to play into the manga continuity well enough; if the people of Nemesis left the Earth voluntarily, then that sort of erases their sympathy as victims (which the manga doesn't really portray anyway).

It's much harder to make that case for the anime, which strongly implies that the people were basically benevolent and were very bitter about leaving the Earth, either due to being deliberately exiled, or at the very least pressured into having no real viable alternative.

Ordo said:
Heck, If I liked Sailor Moon a little more I would likely set a story in the future in which an expanding humanity under Usagi's guidance begins to bump heads with the Jurian Empire. I wouldn't even have to make either side evil, just imply that the Jurian colonist aren't happy about humanities rapid expanse, and the Human colonist are getting tired of the Jurians blocking their attempts to expand. This leads to the respective rulers of each nation (Usagi and Tenchi) to try and hash out an agreement that benefits both sides, while people within their own government (more radical or hawkish) work to sabotage their efforts.
I don't care for this idea, largely because the TM:RO continuity is a series which gives the protagonists so much power that it makes them virtually unassailable - marrying the two (unimpeachable virtue and unlimited power) strikes me as being hideously boring for lack of dramatic possibilities.
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#25
Anime Usagi's healing technique has been called purification and healing interchangeably a lot. Especially in some of the subs.

Anime purification/healing has only been used constantly when other influences are effecting humans. The dark energy that eventually ended up all driving the Ayakashi sisters at one point suicidal, they begged for Usagi to get it out of their hearts because it was essentially enslaving them, the humans turned youma, The Hell Tree begged Usagi to purify it of all the dark energy infecting it so it can be reborn, flat out brainwashing like when she originally purified Mamoru when he was brainwashed by the Dark Kingdom. We have 5 Seasons worth of people being attacked, infected by outside influences and being turned back to normal from Usagi's healing/purification.

Anime!Usagi though more idealistic does not like coddling people. She believes in humanity more than anyone. She found Galaxia's implication that humanity could not contain Chaos in their hearts insulting when Usagi decided the best method was to break Chaos up and place it in the hearts of everyone since despite what Galaxia thought no one person could contain it. She even agreed some people may be consumed by it but in the end you have to trust them to do what's best.

That's the thing that bugs me. Fanon!Usagi is essentially Anime!Galaxia whom Usagi was proven to be better than. Galaxia was controlling and arrogant even if her intentions were good. She wanted to do everything on her own. She thought she could coddle the Universe. She didn't respect people's abilities and got corrupted. Usagi surpassed her by saying everyone could carry the burden of evil in their hearts and released Chaos into the Universe along with the light of hope. Fanon! Purification actually goes against Usagi's very last action in the anime when she broke up evil to be carried into the hearts of everyone. Why would she decide a thousand years later to pull a Galaxia when she knows exactly how much of a fuck up that was was and already put the light of hope there to counteract it?

Manga Usagi also had the chance to erase evil from the Universe but she let it live. Telling her own Future!Self that her plan was stupid. Because she knew heart ache, war, pain are all necessary things for people to advance and better themselves. It helped her become who she was.

I'm really not in the mood for a CT Debate today. So I'm pretty much gonna step out now.
 
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