Square-Enix

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#1
I was initially feeling positive about FF 13-2 then I read the following.

David Wolinsky: I think the problem is just that Final Fantasy is on autopilot. I saw a ton of random battles in the demo, which seemed weird, since the game assumes you want to switch on "auto battle." With that on, your characters use their best judgment in determining what enemy to attack, what sort of attack to use (magic/physical), and whether to use a defensive item. We're conditioned to embrace level-grinding in RPGs, but something seems loose when you're getting dragged into fights but not expected to deal with them personally. Just to make sure you're awake, you're occasionally thrown a couple of quick-time events mid-fight, but let's just back up here a moment and reiterate: This is Final Fantasy. Why is Square Enix intent on trying to make it anything but that?

Eric Neigher: That's a really good adjective to use: "automatic." Nobody's flying the damn plane anymore -- not even you. You just watch the game pass before your eyes and stare in wild wonder at the feat of boredom before you. The quick-time events are just included so that Square Enix can put "video game" on the box and not "cut-scene factory." The story, as always, made no sense whatsoever. Some girl named Lightning, who is very serious and not all that hot, is on a quest to find happiness by fighting a big tough guy of some sort. Really, next to what brand of bottled water I'm going to drink next, I can think of almost nothing that I am less interested in than FFXIII-2's story. Let's say we were living in a perfect world, where Square Enix was actually going to make changes to the series and this game in particular. What changes would you like to see? What would make you sit up and take an interest in FFXIII-2?


From <a href='http://ps3.gamespy.com/playstation-3/final-fantasy-xiii-2/1171708p1.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>here</a>

Now I know some of you are going to say that the solution is to turn auto-pilot off, but I think this hints at a more disturbing mentality from the games designers. The idea that the players input isn't really necassary to the expierence. It feels like I'm being tossed a bone, like the designers are saying 'Oh here, you can do something...now! Had fun? Good now sit down and watch.'

I was initially feeling good about this game when I saw that I could take enemy monsters for my own (Fly my pretties fly!) and that I'd be able to make some choices about how my character reacts to things. Now...I wonder if it'll all be just another illusion.

On the plu side Deus Ex Human Revolution looks like fun.
 

FinalMax

Well-Known Member
#2
I think this has been a problem for a lot longer than we think. As I think about it, this has been going on at least since Final Fantasy VI. We tend to see people gush over how impressive the visuals are in a Square-Enix cutscene, but we almost never see that same level of detail in the actual gameplay.

This tendency did infect quite a bit of the Japanese game industry, even through the mess that was the Xenosaga games. You would think that gaming would have learned from the Xenosaga series when it comes to gameplay vs. cutscenes, but even Western developers have been falling into that trap.

Honestly though, I don't think Square-Enix has done anything innovative or different since TWEWY. Sure, that's an actual recent example of something different and kind fun came out from them. It's just disappointing that the ideas that went into that just get wasted by cutscene festivals with boss fights.
 

pidl

Well-Known Member
#3
FinalMax said:
I think this has been a problem for a lot longer than we think. As I think about it, this has been going on at least since Final Fantasy VI. We tend to see people gush over how impressive the visuals are in a Square-Enix cutscene, but we almost never see that same level of detail in the actual gameplay.

This tendency did infect quite a bit of the Japanese game industry, even through the mess that was the Xenosaga games. You would think that gaming would have learned from the Xenosaga series when it comes to gameplay vs. cutscenes, but even Western developers have been falling into that trap.

Honestly though, I don't think Square-Enix has done anything innovative or different since TWEWY. Sure, that's an actual recent example of something different and kind fun came out from them. It's just disappointing that the ideas that went into that just get wasted by cutscene festivals with boss fights.
There is a big difference between 'not as much details in gameplay as cutscenes' and 'auto-pilot.' The first FF-game where I could win a battle by just letting the game do it's thing is FF XII.
 

Shadowseraph

Well-Known Member
#4
Eh, I'm pretty much done with square, with Cavia having gone under and the general lackluster experience of thirteen(barring the scenery porn) they've pretty much used up my remaining good will and nostalgia points. Unless I here they hired Taro Yoko back on to direct a project I wasn't planning on getting anymore of their games anyway.

As for thirteen-2... looks like more of the same. Whoo.
Edit: I think Yahtzee said it best, square just wants to make cgi movies at this point.
 
#5
My only hope for Square is Nomura as sad as it may be. Kingdom Hearts games may be cheesy, but they are Fun. And Versus looks like it has real potential with its action-RPG aspect. I really hope that game isn't getting the shaft because that seems to be the only bright spot left.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#6
Well, I've already heard fans of Dungeon Siege III mutter and curse because the game's not looking good. That demo must've been awful lol.
 

blabla1994

Well-Known Member
#7
GenocideHeart said:
Well, I've already heard fans of Dungeon Siege III mutter and curse because the game's not looking good. That demo must've been awful lol.
From what I've heard it seams to have the same problem as DNF, that it's not a bad game but it has They Changed It Now It Sucks syndrome.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#8
blabla1994 said:
GenocideHeart said:
Well, I've already heard fans of Dungeon Siege III mutter and curse because the game's not looking good. That demo must've been awful lol.
From what I've heard it seams to have the same problem as DNF, that it's not a bad game but it has They Changed It Now It Sucks syndrome.
No, the complaints were aimed at the character building - customization has been lobotomized and oversimplified, and that understandably pissed people who like lots of customizing off. It's been compared, in a not too nice analogy, to Sacred 2 (Hint: Sacred 2 is not a good game, I should know).
 
#9
I have zero interest in anything Square has released in the last ten-plus years. For a company that made some fucking awesome games in the mid-90s, that is very sad.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#10
GenocideHeart said:
blabla1994 said:
GenocideHeart said:
Well, I've already heard fans of Dungeon Siege III mutter and curse because the game's not looking good. That demo must've been awful lol.
From what I've heard it seams to have the same problem as DNF, that it's not a bad game but it has They Changed It Now It Sucks syndrome.
No, the complaints were aimed at the character building - customization has been lobotomized and oversimplified, and that understandably pissed people who like lots of customizing off. It's been compared, in a not too nice analogy, to Sacred 2 (Hint: Sacred 2 is not a good game, I should know).
Played the demo, it works, and there might be some fun possibilities but that kind of hack Slash isn't my thing anyways.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#11
nuclear death frog said:
I have zero interest in anything Square has released in the last ten-plus years. For a company that made some fucking awesome games in the mid-90s, that is very sad.
Dissidia, Dissidia 012, FF4 DS and FF4 TAY were all really good.

Other than that however... hmm...

Yeah, the games just haven't been very good since the PS1 ended.
 

Watashiwa

Administrator
Staff member
#12
Nanya said:
nuclear death frog said:
I have zero interest in anything Square has released in the last ten-plus years. For a company that made some fucking awesome games in the mid-90s, that is very sad.
Dissidia, Dissidia 012, FF4 DS and FF4 TAY were all really good.

Other than that however... hmm...

Yeah, the games just haven't been very good since the PS1 ended.
Add WEWY and DQIX to the mix, shake hard and what do you see? SE's best games are on portable systems now. I don't think that this is a mistake; they're obviously not able to replicate their favorite THROW CGI AT THEM strategy so they put their people to work making the games good instead.
 

atlas_hugged

Well-Known Member
#13
Final Fantasy is a cash cow franchise. Square can run it into the ground, like they are now, and as long as they brand the next game as a "reboot", and make it "different" then the money will keep coming in.

Guarantee you the next mainline final fantasy will be a reboot if this one bombs. By reboot I don't mean rebooting the story of the series (since there is none), but a generic term applying to the mechanics. Look for phrases like "get back to the roots" and other bullshit.

Basically buy branding their new game (whatever single player ff game is coming after ff13-2) as more of the stuff before the recent bad stuff (the upcoming ff13-2), they could dupe fanboys into buying yet another product that fails to innovate in any way not related to CGI cutscenes easily watchable on youtube for free.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#14
Just saw the Trailer for 13-2 and I have one, big, enormous question.

Where the fuck is Snow ?!!
 

Shadowseraph

Well-Known Member
#15
Watashiwa said:
Nanya said:
nuclear death frog said:
I have zero interest in anything Square has released in the last ten-plus years. For a company that made some fucking awesome games in the mid-90s, that is very sad.
Dissidia, Dissidia 012, FF4 DS and FF4 TAY were all really good.

Other than that however... hmm...

Yeah, the games just haven't been very good since the PS1 ended.
Add WEWY and DQIX to the mix, shake hard and what do you see? SE's best games are on portable systems now. I don't think that this is a mistake; they're obviously not able to replicate their favorite THROW CGI AT THEM strategy so they put their people to work making the games good instead.
This isn't just square though, barring disagaea 3 and soon 4 pretty much all srpg's and a fair chunk of other jrpg's have migrated to handhelds, doesn't bother me too much really, it just means I spend less since handheld games are cheaper.

Also the FF4 remake's don't count, remake's never count.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#16
Deathwings said:
Just saw the Trailer for 13-2 and I have one, big, enormous question.

Where the fuck is Snow ?!!
Hmmm, finally got my hands on ff 13 for cheap. Snows insistance that he's a hero is getting on my nerves but I actually like his character design. It's not as wild as some other stuff I've seen in JRPG.

Undecided on the rest of the caste.

Oh....I think the combat system may have worked better if they'd followed KOTORs example, letting you switch control and pause to plan things out for your squad. BUt hey it's early perhaps the game will improve.

Addendum

Hope is in desperate need of a Bright Noa bitch slap.....

Lightening: "It's obvious you need a taste of the back of my hand..."
 

mario_zx

Well-Known Member
#17
Ordo said:
Hmmm, finally got my hands on ff 13 for cheap. Snows insistance that he's a hero is getting on my nerves but I actually like his character design. It's not as wild as some other stuff I've seen in JRPG.
Actually, something I found interesting was the fact while Snows insistence on being a hero can be grating, it actually saves the party and Cocoon, since sitting around doing nothing, and bitching at everything doesn't help them in the least, but actually making heroic choices does.
 

Croaker

Well-Known Member
#18
Some girl named Lightning, who is very serious and not all that hot, is on a quest to find happiness by fighting a big tough guy of some sort.
This is literally the worst summary of a plot I've ever read. I'm having trouble thinking of a worse one.

Persona 3: Some kid who is pretty emo looking plays amateur therapist for his school.

(I don't know shit about FF13-2 but that's just so bad)
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#19
mario_zx said:
Ordo said:
Hmmm, finally got my hands on ff 13 for cheap. Snows insistance that he's a hero is getting on my nerves but I actually like his character design. It's not as wild as some other stuff I've seen in JRPG.
Actually, something I found interesting was the fact while Snows insistence on being a hero can be grating, it actually saves the party and Cocoon, since sitting around doing nothing, and bitching at everything doesn't help them in the least, but actually making heroic choices does.
Action is (generally) better than inaction, however this groups biggest problem right now is that they are not a team. They are a bunch of in(duh)viduals and that can get you killed.

Just fought the first enemy that requires Paradigm shifting. So far the combat system seems designed to only allow you to affect the flow of battle and not the details. This is partly due to things happening so fast. I appreciate the speed, without control of my party memebers I feel less in control. As it is I often just hit "Autobattle" unless I have a specific plan in mind (in between switchin paradigms). Example, my healer keeps forgetting to give Snow a little boost so I end up using a potion to keep Snow alive. That said, I really do feel that they are a step away from employing a system that allow me to just push forward and watch dialoge while the game plays itself...if they're not there already.
 

Elvarein

Well-Known Member
#20
Ordo said:
mario_zx said:
Ordo said:
Hmmm, finally got my hands on ff 13 for cheap. Snows insistance that he's a hero is getting on my nerves but I actually like his character design. It's not as wild as some other stuff I've seen in JRPG.
Actually, something I found interesting was the fact while Snows insistence on being a hero can be grating, it actually saves the party and Cocoon, since sitting around doing nothing, and bitching at everything doesn't help them in the least, but actually making heroic choices does.
Action is (generally) better than inaction, however this groups biggest problem right now is that they are not a team. They are a bunch of in(duh)viduals and that can get you killed.

Just fought the first enemy that requires Paradigm shifting. So far the combat system seems designed to only allow you to affect the flow of battle and not the details. This is partly due to things happening so fast. I appreciate the speed, without control of my party memebers I feel les in control. As it is I often just hit "Autobattle" unless I have a specific plan in mind (in between switchin paradigms). Example, my healer keeps forgetting to give Snow a little boost so I end up using a potion to keep Snow alive. That said, I really do feel that they are a step away from employing a system that allow me to just push forward and watch dialoge while the game plays itself...if they're not there already.
Well thats only at the start, later it gets MUCH more interesting in terms of difficulty. Still I have to admit to prefering games where I can control my characters actions.

Also with regards to the characters my favourite hands down is Sazh and his chocobo. At the start my most DETESTED character has to be Hope.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#21
Elvarein said:
Ordo said:
mario_zx said:
Ordo said:
Hmmm, finally got my hands on ff 13 for cheap. Snows insistance that he's a hero is getting on my nerves but I actually like his character design. It's not as wild as some other stuff I've seen in JRPG.
Actually, something I found interesting was the fact while Snows insistence on being a hero can be grating, it actually saves the party and Cocoon, since sitting around doing nothing, and bitching at everything doesn't help them in the least, but actually making heroic choices does.
Action is (generally) better than inaction, however this groups biggest problem right now is that they are not a team. They are a bunch of in(duh)viduals and that can get you killed.

Just fought the first enemy that requires Paradigm shifting. So far the combat system seems designed to only allow you to affect the flow of battle and not the details. This is partly due to things happening so fast. I appreciate the speed, without control of my party memebers I feel les in control. As it is I often just hit "Autobattle" unless I have a specific plan in mind (in between switchin paradigms). Example, my healer keeps forgetting to give Snow a little boost so I end up using a potion to keep Snow alive. That said, I really do feel that they are a step away from employing a system that allow me to just push forward and watch dialoge while the game plays itself...if they're not there already.
Well thats only at the start, later it gets MUCH more interesting in terms of difficulty. Still I have to admit to prefering games where I can control my characters actions.

Also with regards to the characters my favourite hands down is Sazh and his chocobo. At the start my most DETESTED character has to be Hope.
The weirdest thing, is that this system reminds me of KOTORs comabt system, with the ability to set up a string of attacks. Now if they had allowed the player to pause and think things through, and switch to party memebers to set up specific attacks I think this game would be more appealing.

As it is I'm playing this game as a break from Mass Effect 2 (On my fifth run through), Infamous 2, and Vanquish. Though I plan to buy Disgaea 3 sometime this afternoon so will see how long this intest lasts.

The linearity is appaling at this stage and the characters are....well

Sazh's fine, I have nothing against him. So far he seems like the team dad, keeping this young idiots in line.

Hope....the fact that I'm seriously considering replacing him with Shinji Ikari (Hey, he hung in there in the beginning, and in 'Rebuild' he's gotten his man card) says a lot.

You know what...I'm going to play Dr. Cox. Hope as of this moment (Just after beating that boss that required Paradigm shifting) has five man cards. Let's see if he can hold onto them until the end of the game.

I just had Libra explained, and the part that made me laugh was that after scanning an enemy, my characters will all know exactly how to attack when I use autobattler. While rolling my eyes I realized a way they could've made this system kind of work. You are not Snow, Lightening or any of the other main characters. You are <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MissionControl' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Mission Control</a>, <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VoiceWithAnInternetConnection' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>The Voice with an Internet Connection</a>, or <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpiritAdvisor' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Spirit Advisor</a>. You get installed when the heroes are marked and given their powers. Everything that occurs before that is you reading through their most recent memories. You provide combat assistance, information, and a mystical artillerfy strike/support/beast summoning. The main characters are aware of your presence, and are not happy about it, but don't really have much choice. Depending on how you interact with them you're either become an annoying, but useful tool or a well loved full fledged team memeber.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#22
Interesting, Spoony comments on the gameplay of FF 13 in his impression of FF-13-2 & FF13-versue. I have no feelings on the story at the moment, but I think he's dead on about 13's battle system. It's an attempt to remove some of the tedium from JRPGs. I think if they're going to do that, then setting you up as 'Mission Control' makes even more sense. I think you'd be able to keep it fast and fluid, and still give players a fair amount of control just in different fashions.

<a href='http://spoonyexperiment.com/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Spoony</a>

I'll keep playing ff 13 and seeing if I can forge a better system that uses it as a jumping of point. Will post more later.

Hope, I'm taking a Mancard for whining about daddy issues.
 
#23
Deathwings said:
Just saw the Trailer for 13-2 and I have one, big, enormous question.

Where the fuck is Snow ?!!
I only know what I've read from wiki, and I know Snow's entire motivation from XIII was to save his fiancee. I am going to laugh so hard when that hard work is rendered moot when the fans decide that Serah and the new guy are destined lovers or something.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#24
A Curious Stranger said:
Deathwings said:
Just saw the Trailer for 13-2 and I have one, big, enormous question.

Where the fuck is Snow ?!!
I only know what I've read from wiki, and I know Snow's entire motivation from XIII was to save his fiancee. I am going to laugh so hard when that hard work is rendered moot when the fans decide that Serah and the new guy are destined lovers or something.
Snow did his job, keeping her alive until she could find her true love....

Addendum

So what are the chances that these two are siblings?


 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#25
I'm about to throw this game across the room. I'm five hours in, I've been running down one long corridor, and so far the protagonist have all run off to do their own things. I actually miss Snow, unlike everyone else he was at least willing to try and figure his mission out and do something about it. Everyone else just ran off on him.

Worse....I am sick and tired of Lightening, Hope, Sazh, and Vanilla. I know this portion is meant to focus on their characters but I don't care. Then they keep teasing us with Snow and Oerba having them show up and talk/flashback but not allow us to play as them.

This game has another two hours, max. If I don't see some improvement soon then I will gladly chuck this thing in the bin and go back to playing Disgaea.

For those wondering I'm in chapter 6.
 
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