Star Wars Original Jedi Concept?

[Bill Felix]

The other day I got my hands on some pre-George-Lucas-remastered VHS tapes of the original trilogy and I was watching it and I found something kind of interesting.

During the scene in ANH when we establish Vader's ability to choke someone with the force, a few of the Moffs are very skeptical of the Jedi in general and dismiss their powers as 'myth' and 'legend.' The thing is, the Moffs are largely old or middle aged men who clearly were around when the events of the Prequels took place.

Considering that the prequels make the Jedi Order out as a big deal (generals of a galactic war that involved most of the civilized galaxy), it would seem like the Moffs (provincial governors who theoretically have political experience) would at least know of the Jedi. Even if the Emperor somehow censored all information, they were still around when that stuff went down.

Obviously it's a retcon, but it seemed as if the original concept of the Jedi was what we see Obi-Wan and Yoda as in the original films: exiles who live on the fringe of society because they wield a power that few people believe in or understand.

To me, it would have been more credible if Lucas just stuck with them as some sort of exiled religious order who assisted in the Clone Wars (not as leaders) and were dismissed as crazy by the Republic when they tried to warn them of some greater evil inside of the Senate.

Hell, you could even have kept all of the EU. It would be more believable if the Jedi were at the center of galactic politics 1000 years BBY when the Sith were still around. Then 1000 years of no Sith or Dark Jedi (that anyone knew about) would have made the Jedi irrelevant and they would have eventually been casually dismissed as crazies so that, by the time that the prequels role around, they are an exiled religious order.

Thoughts on the topic?

 

[Kibbles]

Actually, it's quite logical. There were a few thousand Jedi, tops, in the galaxy. A galaxy with roughly 60-something million worlds. And most Jedi tended not to go outside the Temple much. In addition, when they did show up, most of it was as negotiators, not warriors.

The average person in the street probably never saw a Jedi in his life, most of his information coming from movies and whatnot (the Adventures of Jolee Bindo, Renegade Jedi or some other tripe that twists actual history into something else). And of those that saw a live Jedi, only a fraction saw a live Jedi in action.

Palpatine simply painted the Jedi as charlatans exploiting the Republic for their own ends. No real powers, smoke and mirrors to draw on the old legends of true Force wielders.

At least, that's the canon explanation. The belief in the Force was never truly widespread outside the Jedi and Sith. Of course, it's a retcon ... and a plot hole.

Most of the people involved in the Empire were old enough to have served in the Republic (many of them under command of Jedi Generals). IIRC, Tarkin directly butted heads with Jedi during the Stark Hyperspace Conflict. In fact, most of the upper strata of the Galactic Empire were Republic officials long before Palpatine issued his Declaration of a New Order.

 

[Hypothesis]

Were they skeptical that the power existed, or that it was as grand and all powerful as claimed?

 

[Prince Charon]

Were they skeptical that the power existed, or that it was as grand and all powerful as claimed?

That's a good point, but they acted like they weren't expecting Vader to go off and choke a bitch for making fun of his religion.

 

[Bill Felix]

Were they skeptical that the power existed, or that it was as grand and all powerful as claimed?

<a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE</a>

Here is the full scene.

I like to note the language of the guy who gets choked. The whole 'sorcerer's ways' and 'ancient religion' bit especially. Although that guy does look like the youngest there, he still looks much older than twenty.

I know that Lucas is trying to paint the Empire as nihilist technocrats in this scene, but it does come across as them believing that the Force itself was a myth.

Again, it's likely just a convenient scene to showcase how the Force works, but it always seemed odd to me.

 

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Nearly everyone thought the Force was a myth; hence Han Solo's quote about his trusty blaster. I think that hardly anyone would have met a Jedi using his full abilities except those who they were fighting against and the majority of the Seperatists were wiped out. I think we have been spoiled with Clone Wars and various Jedi games where you can use your powers to throw Tie Fighters around and shit but the Jedi are never fighters first. They are monks/diplomats who train in self-defence.

I like your idea though and can definitely see where you're coming from. :mmm:

 

[Chuckg]

I think the explanation was that one dude was a skeptic about the Force, as some people were. It didn't have to be universal.

Note that most other people at the table were going like '... oh, this isn't going to end well'. Tarkin in particular was totally unsurprised at Vader busting a move.

 

[Prince Charon]

There was a web page I can't find or remember the title of, that had a guy in-universe calling the Jedi dangerous frauds, using technology, hypnotism, and magician tricks to explain away their powers. It was set up as sort of an in-universe web-page. (If you know where it is, I'd like a link, please.)

Given the total number of Jedi, and the total number of troops, its quite likely that Admiral Motti (the guy getting Force choked), and indeed, most of even the upper-level officers in the Imperial Fleet, had never seen the Force being used, or even seen a Jedi in person, more than once or twice. Combine that with Imperial propaganda such as the page described above, and you can see why only twenty years later, many people are very skeptical about it.

His <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Admiral_Motti' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Wookieepedia article</a> currently contradicts itself on this point, first saying "During the Clone Wars, he witnessed the feats of Jedi, memories that would remain with him for his whole life." and then, after Vader chokes him: "Motti, who had previously doubted both Vader and the power of the Force, was frightened and shocked by this display." Oops.

Anyway, the disbelief shown in the OT only makes a plothole in the PT, if you vastly decrease the population of the galaxy (and thus the size of the military) to a plothole-digging degree, or increase the number of Jedi so much that the Purge couldn't have happened the way it did.

The PT has many, many plotholes in it. It doesn't need any more.

 

[Bill Felix]

Anyway, the disbelief shown in the OT only makes a plothole in the PT, if you vastly decrease the population of the galaxy (and thus the size of the military) to a plothole-digging degree, or increase the number of Jedi so much that the Purge couldn't have happened the way it did.

The PT has many, many plotholes in it. It doesn't need any more.

I wasn't so much trying to point out a plothole as I was speculating about what Lucas might have originally intended back in the eighties for the Jedi before he even wrote the prequels.

I was noting my opinion that, based on the OT alone, it seemed that the Jedi were more like what I had mentioned than the well-known, politically powerful force in the prequels.

Though, I will definitely look at that in-universe page if you find it. ^_^

 

[foesjoe]

Though it seems as if the Rebels did know about the Jedi. At least their High Command must have known about them and supported Luke's ambitions to become one, otherwise they would have thrown him in the brig for going AWOL for weeks after the Hoth battle.

It could just be that a lot of the Imperial officers were big on denial. Thinking along the lines of, "If the Jedi really were such fearsome warriors who could command a mystical force like magic, they wouldn't have been eradicated."

They tell themselves the Jedi order was a bunch of self-important prats with delusions of grandeur, the Force powers were smoke and mirrors, and all of it was a bunch of bullshit.

Though maybe there should be an in-universe explanation for why there was such wide-spread skepticism regarding the Jedi.

It's only been 20 years since the Clone Wars. The media coverage of that war was supposedly very extensive, and the Jedi got a lot of public exposure. Though maybe Palpatine's propaganda took care of that.

 

[bissek]

Official Imperial propaganda painted the Jedi of the Clone War era as Villains With Good Publicity, who were taken down by the Emperor and the one Jedi to break free of their indoctrination and try to make the galaxy a better place - Darth Vader.

The same propaganda engine declared that Palpatine sacrificed his own life to ensure that the Rebels would not be able to capture the Planetary Ore Extractor Mk 2 and use it on inhabited planets - like they had done with the Mk I and Alderaan.