That Doesn't Answer the Question

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~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#1
Explain Seeming Abuse of Authority

@Watashiwa

The last post you made in the Daily Thing thread, intergecting that T.L. went over the line with no explaination after the discussion was already over read as a veiled threat and frankly also an abuse of authority. One in which I'd in fact advocate for removal of Admin privileges if it had clearly been done in a mod capacity with all the formatting that entails. Attempting to shut down discussion from differing viewpoints by specifically singling out a forum member with the weight of authority implied by those kinds of vieled threats, while not specifying what he did wrong or was against the rules (especially in a case like this where the discussion was entirely reasonable by all sides) is not something I'll tolerate from any mod. Especially if it's not clarified after pressed on the matter.

As it was not clearly a mod action however since it lacked the mod action formatting I'm willing to see it as a normal ideological spat if properly clarified, as I'd already asked for in the thread. As it was that post was very ill advised regardless, if you're a mod you should take care not to make posts that can be so easily read that way that are ditected soley at any given member. Especially without clarifying what went over the line and why in what by all indications was a reasonable, if heated, discussion. 

Disagree and get involved in those discussions sure, hell T.L. was arguing with a mod in that discussion. That's all fine. Greater care however should be taken to avoid making statements like that post however that can so easily be read as a mod trying to press their authority down on any given individual, with or without the key mod formatting.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#2
RE: Explain Seeming Abuse of Authority

We've (EDIT: By that I mean TFF in general) has had this conversation before, iirc.

The rule of thumb is that if they're flaired up, they're saying it in their role as a mod/admin, if they aren't, they're saying it as themselves. Dead stop.

Watawashiwa is saying TL crossed a line, and he's saying that as a forum member most of us respect pretty heavily. He's NOT saying it as Watawashiwa, admin of TFF.

If admin/mods aren't flaired up, they're not flaired up.
If you take a non-flaired statement as a admin/mod warning, that's on you for not knowing what you're doing, and if you take it any other way, it's pretty much also on you.

Also keep in mind that an actual mod/admin warning actually comes with, you know, a warning. THat shows up on your account. That you can see, right underneath your post count.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#3
RE: Explain Seeming Abuse of Authority

I'm aware, hence why I'm not advocating for an ousting to be replaced with, I don't know, Chrono. That said, context is important. After a conversation was effectively over, the Admin came in, singled out a singular member as having crossed a line, and gave no clarification nor remote reasoning for it given what was a heated but otherwise perfectly reasonable discussion and dropped out even when asked to clarify and given over a day to do so (And he was on, I saw him).

This can be taken many ways, including that interpretation which I'm willing to give credence to and in fact did so in that opening post. Read that way Wata's being a dick singling out someone out of nowhere and interjecting where he shouldn't after a discussion finished and not clarifying what went over the line or why. He still should clarify regardless if for no other reason to make others aware of whatever sore spot got triggered by the discussion (Which granted might open him up for more abuse by other assholes, but them's the breaks :p ). As an Admin saying that sort of thing however, it can also very easily be taken as an implied threat, particularly if you aren't aware of the Mod Formatting rule. In which case it's all the more important that the comment be given further context.

Hence why I escalated it here. If there's one thing I won't tolerate, it's attempting to silence others who are being entirely reasonable in otherwise heated debates without any clarification nor warning, and especially if a person in a position of power is doing so. Which isn't to say that's what I think he's doing, again a case can be made for the other interpretation where Wata's just being an asshole which I granted already in that post. But either way, no matter which interpretation you take between despot or ass, clarification on that post is necessary as a person in a mod position shouldn't normally be leaving that kind of easily misinterpreted comment without clarifying it when pressed.

Which is why I saw fit to escalate to clear up in the matter so it didn't just get lost in the Daily Thing thread as new posts trickle in. Once it's clarified I'm willing to drop the matter and move on. :p

Edit: Also while I'm here, we have that ping feature don't we? I thought it was @Username, but I'm not sure it worked. Might have been thinking of another forum.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#4
RE: Explain Seeming Abuse of Authority

No, pinging someone involves an @ sign followed by a name in brackets, iirc.

And again, I have to point out that it's literally 'if you think a mod/admin is talking as a mod/admin while not flaired, that's on you.'

If you want to do some kind of information packet or smth, more power to you, but I highly doubt you'll get any support for making an admin/mods words kinda sort maybe count as them being admin/mod when not flaired so they have to watch their words.

It's just going to be a colossal mess for everyone involved, and no one was interested in curtailing any of the admins and mods from their usual shitposting. Frankly, trying to claim or enforce that they should act like mods/admins when not flaired up is going to be ignored at best, or worst case lose us our leadership... AGAIN.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#6
@[Watashiwa]

I'm not going to let you dodge this one, this potential breach is entirely too important to let slide with effectively shirking the matter. If you're going to answer in the thread, it would at least do to answer the crux of the question. Ie: What was the meaning of that post?

Literally all you have to do is agree with what Shiro said that you were just being a dick about it and meant nothing by it Admin wise and only that it struck a sore spot with you personally and the matter is effectively resolved. I'm completely fine with that interpretation, it's the fact that you're dodging and refusing to clarify when pressed that's the issue here.

Edit: Not sure the Brackets work... Well I'm flummoxed.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#7
I really do not want to get involved in this discussion, but since the thread was created I must ask - what is the purpose of this?

Are you asking if (in other discussion thread) Wata was talking as a user or if he was talking as a member of staff? That answer seems pretty clear-cut to me.

We talk in color when speaking as member of staff.

If this is NOT what you are asking, can you clarify your concern?

-chronodekar
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#8
My concern is he popped out of nowhere in a discussion that was already over with a veiled comment like that which not only didn't make sense, as the discussion was entirely reasonable between the two albeit heated, but also read like a veiled threat. When pressed to clarify himself, he either didn't respond or, in locking the other thread, appeared to dodge the question entirely.

Entirely possible its unimportant and was just him being a dick and somehow the conversation hit a sore spot with him and he meant nothing actually by it. That I'm fine with, you're free to be an ass all you want. Hell I encourage it hence why I had zero issue with how the mod actually involved in the argument handled himself. Entirely reasonable on both sides even if it got heated.

My issue is any mod making statements like that with no clarification whatsoever which can be so easily read in such a way formatting or not. If you tell someone they crossed a line when they didn't remotely by all indications, and saying they should stop, doesn't sound like usual banter frankly speaking. And when asked to clarify the context of such a statement it should be responded to, because if it is more than just banter that's a major issue and if you don't respond or dodge like that it seems like you don't want to admit it was nothing more than that.

That is my concern here. Is it nothing and is all of this moot? Probably. However this is a line I refuse to tolerate from any mod, hence why I want clarity on the matter to this degree. Once I get that I'm entirely fine dropping it entirely.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#9
So I basically see where you're coming from Omega. And yeah, I basically agree that this forum is better served if Mods act with a light touch.

On the other hand,
This is the Appeals forum, where users can appeal official moderator action.
Since no official action was taking, there is literally nothing to appeal.

This is the nasty board, where we argue about banning & sanctioning people. That hasn't happened, so you're... literally in the wrong section. If anything this should go up top in The Suggestion Box / Random Questions and Suggestions thread asking for an explicit rules clarification.

And I will formally state that clarification here: if it's not in bold-color Mod Text, then it's their personal opinion as "just another user", and doesn't have to be respected (or obeyed!) any more than that.


Full disclosure; before I was appointed a mod, I actually have criticized the mod staff for authority abuse (mostly in PMs), and I think it is a credit to our current administration that they asked me to join them after I've called them out (more than once!). So I've literally been where you are right now, and I want to reassure you that you don't have to worry about it.

And I understand that you're worried about a slide in standards as changing precedent, and if you want to start that discussion in the appropriate place you can.

But please respect that the Appeals sub-forum is for appeals only, not discussion of The Rules in general.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#10
~NGD OMEGA~ said:
My issue is any mod making statements like that with no clarification whatsoever which can be so easily read in such a way formatting or not.
Before I directly answer, I must request that you understand something - on this forum, the formatting a member of staff uses is important. It is NOT something you can just dismiss.

On this forum a member of staff has a responsibility to act in a manner for the Greater Good (to quote my inner Dumbledore). As an example,

I like cats.

I like bunnies.

The above two sentences are different from a perspective of authority. The first is simply a member of the forum (like you) saying that he likes a certain kind of animal. It has no bearing beyond that. The second, is a member of the staff formally saying that they like bunnies. One can (correctly) imply from this that the forum encourages folks to talk about their love for bunnies.

We have this regulation in place because it would be a HUGE pain-in-the-ass for staff to manage multiple accounts for arguably little benefit. Also - we are not the only forum to have such a rule. I understand that there are other internet forums where a member of staff can use the same account to talk as a normal user, but employ some kind of scheme (like our colouring) to talk in an official capacity.

With this background, I must state that your assertion is incorrect. To link back to Watashiwa's ORIGINAL post,

http://thefanfictionforum.net/showthread.php?tid=4963&pid=1302191#pid1302191

You can clearly see that he was NOT speaking as a member of staff. As far as I can tell, Wata did not go back and edit the post either. i.e. he was NOT talking as the admin of this forum. This is a point Shirotsume made in your other thread inside the moderator appeals section.

Please do not demand for clarification on statements from staff in formal capacity when in fact, such statements were not made in formal capacity to begin with.

With this context, I will say that this thread is off-topic for this section of the forum and should be closed as such. For sake of politeness, I will NOT be closing the thread.


Now, returning to a parallel matter, if you have a difference of opinion with another member of this forum and do not wish to potentially derail an existing discussion - feel free to make a new thread in the appropriate sub-forum to talk of the matter. I assume 'General' would work. Bear in mind however, that no-one is obliged to reply. For that matter, others may jump in a derail your discussion. This is (for better or worse) an expected part of our forum's culture.

-chronodekar

PS: The forum staff does not have any official comment or opinions about woodland animals ... or derivatives. The bunny thing above was meant as an example and NOT meant to imply anything further.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#11
Is it? Wasn't sure. I checked both and it seemed like this was the place to go in regards to questioning mod action in general, given we have stuff here like appealing the vote, trying to get rid of the banner, and generally things that don't directly relate to the direct bannings and the like. Wasn't sure where to put this, but if it needs to be moved I'm all for putting it in the questions section instead.

Edit:

You can clearly see that he was NOT speaking as a member of staff. As far as I can tell, Wata did not go back and edit the post either. i.e. he was NOT talking as the admin of this forum. This is a point Shirotsume made in your other thread inside the moderator appeals section.
Read my first comment, both in that thread as well as in the other appeal thread. I said he never used the formatting, in fact I specified that clearly to show my complete understanding of that rule and the fact that it was not in use several times through many of the posts. My issue is not with that it was said in an official mod capacity, were it as I stated I'd be calling for Watashiwa's admin privileges to be removed full stop.

My issue is and has always been since that first post in the thread itself with the context of such a statement being said after the fact targeting a singular member by a mod in such a way that lacked clarity and didn't even make sense in the first place given everyone involved was reasonable in such a discussion. The statement in question was toeing the one line I expect Mods to never cross in or out of mod voice mode: Coming in out of nowhere to seemingly telling people what is acceptable to be said or not, baring extreme cases that clearly violate the agreed upon rules which this decidedly was not even remotely.

I asked for clarification on that original post in that thread as a result since it appeared to cross that one sacred line. It was not responded to. So after giving it a bit of time and the thread continuing on I escalated here to make sure the matter wasn't just dropped and forgotten, as this is important to me. However the question was essentially ignored prior to the thread being locked here, so I re-posted asking again for clarification on the statement. Granted, I wasn't sure whether it should have been here or in the questions section, and if it needs to be moved to questions, I'm fine with that, my bad there. I just want that clarification in the end, quibbling on the minor details like where I get it from doesn't really matter to me.

Were I to get that clarification that I'm 99% sure is the case, I would not have a problem and would drop this matter full stop. I know Wata and even if he's a bit ornery about topics like that I can understand that he means well at least, just tends to get a bit touchy on those topics. The discussion hitting a sore spot for him and him being a bit of a dick to T.L as a result is expected really and I'd have no problem with it if he'd clarify that as the case. :p

However saying because it was not in mod context it should be ignored as such is frankly not enough in this case. I need clarification from the mod in question what they meant from such a statement, because that's what matters. This is my one line I refuse to allow be crossed ever in regards to moderation on this forum, hence why I take it this far.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#12
Nah keeping the Appeals section cleaned up is kind of an uphill struggle; people post here thinking it's the best way to get Mod attention, but it's annoying when it's off-topic; in theory this really should only be for posting stuff that directly questions specific moderation action (formal warnings, bans, etc); it's not just "talk to the mods here."

Anyway I've started a private conversation with the rest of the mod staff on improving rules communication, so please give us a few days to chew on it & figure out what we should do.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#13
~NGD OMEGA~ said:
My issue is not with that it was said in an official mod capacity
This being the case, I stand corrected.

But,

I need clarification from the mod in question what they meant from such a statement, because that's what matters. This is my one line I refuse to allow be crossed ever in regards to moderation on this forum, hence why I take it this far.
I think it would be better if you phrased this differently. Specifically do not refer to Wata as a mod, but a user.

And on the matter of calling out a user - it's something we allow on this forum. What I do not agree with is using the appeals sub-forum to do the calling. It just clutters the section and would needlessly confuse newcomers. This discussion really needs to be moved out of the Appeals section.

Can I request you remake this thread with a better title in a different section? Pretty please?

-chronodekar
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
#14
Sure I'm fine with that. Like I said, I wasn't sure which to put it in, because it didn't seem like this section was specific to mod actions so much as calling out mods on specific things relating to the forum in general, hence my confusion. If this belongs in questions, moving it there is fine with me.

Edit: Or if you can't do that, feel free to delete the thread too. Like I said, I don't care either way where it is so long as the matter gets resolved in the end.
 

Watashiwa

Administrator
Staff member
#15
Oh for fuck's sake.

NGD: users are not beholden to respond to threads, even if our goal as a writing forum should be to increase engagement. Moreover, I was not making a threat as admin, nor was I speaking in my administrator role. Let me demonstrate what Voice of Mod looks like:

~NGD OMEGA~, this is an official warning. Stop spamming threads. Doing so again could result in a suspension. If you want to discuss the behavior of a user, please contact the administration. If you want to appeal this warning please post in the appropriate section.

And before you start bitching: this is exactly the punishment I'd mete out to someone complaining about another user across multiple threads, who created multiple threads to broadcast his or her complaints. Which is what you did, instead of contacting me directly or talking with the moderators. Here's a short list of ways you could have talked to me or indeed, any modmin.

  • PM (The place where I'm most likely to give a reasoned long form explanation)
  • Email (I have at least two through this site, one of which is always available on my profile.)
  • Discord (I can see that you're on our server. I've been on and off all day. Not even one poke there?)
  • IRC (Okay so I don't go here much because Discord is like a million times better, but just saying my name would get me on there eventually.)
I think I've made clear over the years that I take using administrative powers for discipline as a personal failure, and that I prefer alternatives. We've known each other long enough that I'm extraordinarily disappointed you wouldn't give me enough of the benefit of the doubt to try even one of them.

As Voice of Mod said, you're welcome to appeal your spamming warning.

Have a nice day.

PS: I'm merging this thread with your other one, which will remain closed.
 
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