The abuse of the Naruto forum

#51
Honestly, I haven't seen that much abuse.

There were some stray posts, mainly by people who only frequent the Naruto section, and some people who have shown a tendency to ignore any viewpoint save their own (in some cases). But even then, it has been handled in a relatively decent manner by at least most of those involved.

The debates and general discussions, for the most part, have been held in a fairly civil manner... and I've yet to really see anything degrade into what most could consider a flamewar (rampant screaming, insults flying back and forth, and so on).

And most of the time those discussions and debates have lead to some new and interesting ideas, or new viewpoints that, until that time, at least I had never seen/considered. :huh.:

So the main problem seems to be a few stray posts, and a few people got off on the wrong foot. Other than that... I haven't seen anything that I would consider abuse of those forums, but that could just be me.
 

immolo

Well-Known Member
#53
parker said:
You haven't seen many debate with Imolo in them have you?
He's been involved in a lot of them so yes he has debated with me. I am only uncivil when someone is uncivil first or if they are really being an idiot. For example I wasn't uncivil at all in the debate in Knifestyle!Naruto thread untill Mage Ohki told me to shut the fuck up an hour and fourty minutes after I had stopped posting. I was also uncivil when told to throw myself off a building. Perrsonally i think I had perfect right to be uncivil in those cases. Besides Parker you don't like me becuase I commented on the fact you almost never used punctuation and capitilization.
 

parker

Well-Known Member
#54
I will say it right now, I'm a part of the problem. Most of the people in the Naruto section are parts of the problem. Closing the Naruto section won't do jackexcept spread the problem.

p.s. Immolo my name is parker, not Parker.
 

bigbabidi

Well-Known Member
#55
immolo said:
Perrsonally i think I had perfect right to be uncivil in those cases
While it might seem ok, the fact that they started it doesn't mean you're allowed to freely respond in the same type of manner. Don't get me wrong, whoever told you to STFU was totally out of line and I'm not downplaying what he/she said. At the same time, there's no need to stoop to their level.

Next time someone says that, just ignore them or tell them to take it to PMs. Hell, if it gets bad, don't hesitate to PM Hawk about it. It's stated in the rules that such an action wouldn't be frowned upon, nor would you appear as some ' taddle-telling little bitch' for doing so. The quote below is from the rules thread.

[quote="Hawk in ']If somebody breaks one of these, please send me a PM to let me know about it, as I only really read the threads on my days off or sometimes in the evenings. Most of the time, I just go online to admit new members and grant lemon access, so it can take a while for me to spot any offences on occation.

I'd appriciate if people didn't respond to rule breaking in the actual topics, however. If somebody is out of line, ignore them or if you do feel the need to respond, the PM function is a wonderful one. No need to get others annoyed by abusing the topic for some war of words. Quite a bit of leeway is granted to offensive responses to a rule violation, but my patience is not infinitive and if I see it happen repeatedly, the respondee will suffer the consequences as well.[/quote]

And parker, his name is immolo, not Immolo. I don't mean to sound like an ass, but did you really have to mention that to him at this time? This thread is discussing ways to fix the problems in the Naruto section, not bring the same problems (in this case, petty bickering and arguing simply for the sake of bickering and arguing) over here.
 

SimmyC

Well-Known Member
#57
Well it wasn't just debates going off on a different tangent. But also those stray threads that didn't belong in a given forum.

The thing is Mr. Mysterious, those debates HAVE become pretty intense. The one with immolo and parker is but one example of a debate going 'horribly wrong'. And the Ryo-Wolf debates is yet another example of such. Now you could say that they were handled in by level headed people. But at the same time, given the animosity and the 'near' flames (if not full out flames) these debates gone through, you know something DRASTICALLY has to change.

It doesn't help (or does help) that some of these threads ARE deleted. Problem of course is that, when they are deleted, they only cover the problem. Not solve it.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#58
Thinking about it, I think a fair way to handle things would be to implement something like a "sage" option.

Say enough level-headed people see that a thread has degenerated into a flame war, and they click a button to give the thread a demerit. Then, if enough demerits accrue for the thread - i.e. enough people think the thread was off-topic for its board, or descending into flames - the thread locks itself, preventing further posting in it.

This has the benefit of being democratic, in a sense, but without giving unfair advantages to any one forumgoer. Locked threads can still be read, just not posted on, so what useful content could be dredged from the thread could still be salvaged. Finally, if the thread's starter or whoever thinks the locking was a "misfire", then they can appeal to Hawk via PM and discuss it with him.

It's obvious that somebody's gotta be the boss, but I think Hawk is the only one we should have to answer to on this forum. I mean, this is essentially his forum, and I, for one, think he's doing a good job. Electing mods to help him do that could just as easily become a popularity contest - the exact kind of problem that plagues the democratic/republic/parliamentary election processes the world over. It's essentially playing favorites, and that's exactly the kind of unfair bias we do not need here at TFF.

We simply need to police ourselves civilly before forcing the hand of this board's sole authority. Everyone bears the responsibility for their own posts, regardless of motivation. Let's not make it more difficult for Hawk than it already is, okay? Or at the very least, try to mitigate the difficulties we misfits bring him. ;)


Another suggestion, after the fact: To help slow the influx of new members, and to encourage newbies to get a feel for the netiquette of the place before becoming active, I propose a two-week "forced lurking" period for all new accounts. During that time, they would be able to PM freely, and read any and all threads, but would be restricted from posting in anything other than the News board and the Rants > General board until the two weeks is up.

What do you all (and especially Hawk) think about this?
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#59
toraneko said:
Another suggestion, after the fact: To help slow the influx of new members, and to encourage newbies to get a feel for the netiquette of the place before becoming active, I propose a two-week "forced lurking" period for all new accounts. During that time, they would be able to PM freely, and read any and all threads, but would be restricted from posting in anything other than the News board and the Rants > General board until the two weeks is up.

What do you all (and especially Hawk) think about this?
Since you asked...

It would piss me off if I was forced to lurk for two weeks. Many people already lurk anyway, but for those that want to contribute immediately you're basically telling them, "Hey, you're new, shut up, your opinion does not matter."

The amount of time on a forum doesn't decide how smart or how mature you are, after all, and many people who could actually contribute something useful would lose interest before the time was up.
 

Left Shoe

Well-Known Member
#60
Left Shoe said:
Hey, quick thought:á What if Hawk put a security system akin to the Lemon Access on the Naruto Ideas and Talk (and maybe Preiews too, for good measure)?
Wait, wait!á Hear me out!á If Hawk put this into place, then he would have 100% control over who can post in there.á (If it was me, I'd only grant access to members who include links to their stories in their requests. :sisi: )

The only downside is that Hawk would have to dig through more PMs for requests to gain permission to post in there.á If Hawk is willing to take one for the team, this would solve the problem permanently (or at least for a few years).

Oh, I forgot about lurkers. :sweat:á? You can allow any/everybody to view the forums, but only add posts if they have permission that only you can grant.á (I hope that's possible with Invisionfree.)

EDIT:á :headbanger:á Or, you can create a fourth subtopic in the Naruto section, that has that security thingy on it.á That way, there's one higher-quality subsection for the real writers, and one for the ex-lurkers.
Whoa ... I'm invisible! :sweat2: Honestly, did anybody even notice that I had a relevant idea, for once?
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yasuhei said:
I don't know if these suggestions are quite what we need, but I'll throw them out there anyway.

How about something akin to a sage function for locking threads?

Or maybe just higher mod powers for the OP in a thread?á Maybe the ability to lock the thread, or maybe freeze certain peoples ability to add further replies, though not delete their replies so far?
That's a great idea! :yay:
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SimmyC said:
I think that was suggested already. A way for threads to, instead of being deleted, be locked instead. Especially since, even in those threads that degrade into personal bashing and just pisses people off, there are people that made good points. Something that would be lost if it was completely deleted.

I'm not sure Hawk was able to find a way to do it though.
:blue:
Hawk, unless you're completely against this idea, could you look into it (if you haven't already), and please give us a heads-up on how things seem?
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toraneko said:
Thinking about it, I think a fair way to handle things would be to implement something like a "sage" option.

Say enough level-headed people see that a thread has degenerated into a flame war, and they click a button to give the thread a demerit. Then, if enough demerits accrue for the thread - i.e. enough people think the thread was off-topic for its board, or descending into flames - the thread locks itself, preventing further posting in it.

This has the benefit of being democratic, in a sense, but without giving unfair advantages to any one forumgoer. Locked threads can still be read, just not posted on, so what useful content could be dredged from the thread could still be salvaged. Finally, if the thread's starter or whoever thinks the locking was a "misfire", then they can appeal to Hawk via PM and discuss it with him.
:yay:

toraneko said:
It's obvious that somebody's gotta be the boss, but I think Hawk is the only one we should have to answer to on this forum. I mean, this is essentially his forum, and I, for one, think he's doing a good job. Electing mods to help him do that could just as easily become a popularity contest - the exact kind of problem that plagues the democratic/republic/parliamentary election processes the world over. It's essentially playing favorites, and that's exactly the kind of unfair bias we do not need here at TFF.
Right - this idea is out of the question.

toraneko said:
We simply need to police ourselves civilly before forcing the hand of this board's sole authority. Everyone bears the responsibility for their own posts, regardless of motivation. Let's not make it more difficult for Hawk than it already is, okay? Or at the very least, try to mitigate the difficulties we misfits bring him. ;)
:sisi:

toraneko said:
Another suggestion, after the fact: To help slow the influx of new members, and to encourage newbies to get a feel for the netiquette of the place before becoming active, I propose a two-week "forced lurking" period for all new accounts. During that time, they would be able to PM freely, and read any and all threads, but would be restricted from posting in anything other than the News board and the Rants > General board until the two weeks is up.
I'm going to have to go with Mereo Flare on this one. By the time the 'forced lurking' period is over, people will have lost numerous chancces to post new ideas in topics that are constantly changing and/or being threadjacked. This makes those ideas worth less than, say, the TFF's collective opinion of PTS. And that hurts; it hurts bad. :blue:
 

Takerial

Well-Known Member
#61
like you said in your idea yourself Left Shoe, it would create more work for Hawk himself, and that's one of the reasons we are trying to think up these ideas..so it kind of defeats the purpose to do it that way.

The problem with the demerit system is finding a good place for a thread to be locked at. Too little and you can easily be mean to someone on the board for just dislike rather than an actual problem. Yeah it can be unlocked...but it would be a bother to Hawk.

Too many and a thread that deserves to be locked will remain unlocked.

Though it could very well be a pretty good idea when the intial kinks are worked out and it could help with regulation.

Self regulation is fine and all, but people will be human and so it isn't a flawless system and no matter how much you try to work it out civilly it never will be.

In any case, if you really wanted to do the mod thing, have Hawk make a list of people he thinks could do the position well and have people decide from them. It's somewhat democratic and it hopefully shouldn't end up as a popularity contest in the end.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#62
Well, Hawk's already stated - repeatedly - that he won't be giving mod powers to forumgoers unless there is simply no other viable alternative. I, personally, agree.


Looking back on it, I do like the idea of giving the starter of any given topic the ability to lock their own thread. It sounds reasonable enough, given that topic creators can already delete the topic.


I know the demerit-lock system does have its flaws. But I also think it could work, especially once a few of the issues (e.g. how many demerits = thread lock?) are worked out. My main thought is, since it doesn't involve the deletion of any threads, little is lost by locking threads. If the self-policiing fails there, then there's no "damage" done.

Maybe if the demerit-lock expires after three days, to provide a cooling-off period rather than a permanent lock? That could ease the burden on Hawk quite a bit.

Mind you, I'm not familiar with the board's code and whatnot, so I'm not sure if this is even possible. I do think it would be a good idea, though.


Okay, in hindsight, two weeks is definitely too long. I tend to take for granted the fact that I lurk for weeks on any forum, BBS, newsgroup, etc. I join before posting.
Perhaps one to three days would be more acceptable?
 

lord geryon

Well-Known Member
#63
toraneko said:
Looking back on it, I do like the idea of giving the starter of any given topic the ability to lock their own thread. It sounds reasonable enough, given that topic creators can already delete the topic.
I like the idea of thread-starter moderation.

IMO, a thread-starter should have the option to lock, unlock, or delete the thread.

Lock would be a good way to force people to step back from a debate and calm down.

The combination of lock and unlock can be used by an author to ensure his chapter parts don't get scattered all to hell cause of a million and one threadjackings. Or to lock a thread that's on hiatus/dead/not gonna be update for a while to prevent the occassional necro with the attendant hissy-fit by half the sub-forum.

And delete, we already have.

And, I have to admit, I'm one of those Rule 4 violators. :no:
 

yasuhei

Well-Known Member
#64
This is TFF, calling Hawk! This is TFF, calling Hawk! Hawk are you out there? Come in, Hawk!
He has, I believe, already said that he's having difficulty finding the time to get online and deal with this shit, so lets just be patient, ne? :)



Here's a more immediate suggestion. If people aren't aware this thread is even out here, then maybe in the interim we need Stickied 'READ ME NOW' threads at the top of each of the naruto sections, pointing people here, so they can know there is a problem. I'm guessing oly hawk can do sticky threads, but when he's back maybe that would help.
 
#65
How about just giving every the ability to open/close their own threads... if the topic starter no longer wants their topic open then they can close it. Who is to say that you can't choose when your can have your own topics closed. That might help out a bit without causing any bias to form this is only towards your own topics and not teh ability to close some other person's topic.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#66
Topic Creators can already delete their own topics. That's the closest we have to this idea. ^_^

(Am I the only one seeing nightmarish images of review-whores threatening to lock their own topics unless they hit a certain number of ass-kisses?) :unsure:
 

bigbabidi

Well-Known Member
#67
Nope. I see it too, though the amount would probably be relatively small as most people here are better than that, especially since I can't see most TFF members obliging with such a stupid request.

yasuhei said:
Here's a more immediate suggestion. If people aren't aware this thread is even out here, then maybe in the interim we need Stickied 'READ ME NOW' threads at the top of each of the naruto sections, pointing people here, so they can know there is a problem. I'm guessing oly hawk can do sticky threads, but when he's back maybe that would help.
I say we should probably try this first and see how it goes, so no rash decisions end up being made. If people see this thread (and there are people who still don't know about it) and understand the problem, there's still a chance they might settle down, albeit a somewhat slim chance. At the very least, it should serve as a wake up call to show them how serious the Naruto subforum abuse has gotten. That's my opinion anyway.
 

lord geryon

Well-Known Member
#68
trevelyan1983 said:
(Am I the only one seeing nightmarish images of review-whores threatening to lock their own topics unless they hit a certain number of ass-kisses?) :unsure:
Let em. If what they write was worth commenting on, we would. If not... not.

Besides, how would they get their reviews if they locked the thread? :p
 

Left Shoe

Well-Known Member
#69
yasuhei said:
Left Shoe said:
This is TFF, calling Hawk! This is TFF, calling Hawk! Hawk are you out there? Come in, Hawk!
He has, I believe, already said that he's having difficulty finding the time to get online and deal with this shit, so lets just be patient, ne? :)
:headbanger: Fixed.


yasuhei said:
Here's a more immediate suggestion.? If people aren't aware this thread is even out here, then maybe in the interim we need Stickied 'READ ME NOW' threads at the top of each of the naruto sections, pointing people here, so they can know there is a problem.? I'm guessing oly hawk can do sticky threads, but when he's back maybe that would help.
Drawing more attention to the issue would probably help; I can't see how it wouldn't.

----------

trevelyan1983 said:
Am I the only one seeing nightmarish images of review-whores threatening to lock their own topics unless they hit a certain number of ass-kisses?
bigbabidi said:
Nope. I see it too, though the amount would probably be relatively small as most people here are better than that, especially since I can't see most TFF members obliging with such a stupid request.
lord geryon said:
Let em. If what they write was worth commenting on, we would. If not... not.

Besides, how would they get their reviews if they locked the thread? :p
The more they bitch, the less response they get - it's literally poetic justice. :snigger:
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#70
Over moderation and banning goes the way of Shinjis Sharing Inc. I only post my stuff there now for people that like to read there but aren't members here. I don't review other works there anymore. I live and breathe in the Naruto section here and the thought of it vanishing seems wrong. Are there problems? Sure. Most revolve around people taking things too personally or going off topic. Frankly the OT tangents and thread jacks have led to as many good stories as anything else.

So here's my proposal. Just let it be. It's not hurting anyone in any way to let things go the way they've been going. If people get annoyed with the Forum, they don't have to post here. Why let it stress you for no good reason? I would moderate and delete or move topics that are in the wrong section after a few warnings, but that's it. Frankly, I'm guilty of that one too. Sometimes I get a little scatterbrained and put something in the wrong section. It happens. Tell me, I'll apologize, and we'll move on. But I can't see removing one of the most active forums here for problems that come from being an active forum.
 

knight_of_ni

Well-Known Member
#71
mh.... yeah, I think it is the most used forum on this site, so without it, most of the people would move on to the anime/manga thread, and post the stuff there, but not everyone here likes the Naruto fanfiction, so they might have a problem with that.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#72
knight_of_ni said:
mh.... yeah, I think it is the most used forum on this site, so without it, most of the people would move on to the anime/manga thread, and post the stuff there, but not everyone here likes the Naruto fanfiction, so they might have a problem with that.
Yes... a bunch of people would.
 

Lost Star

Well-Known Member
#73
My two cents are really simple. Its an active forum, and there are a lot of people who browse it. When you have a lot of people you have conflicts. It doesnt matter how nice people are, or for that matter how open minded they are. People=Conflicts. Its a fact of life ;)
 

SimmyC

Well-Known Member
#74
Popularity should NEVER be used as an excuse to do nothing. After all, if you simply write off crime as a 'fact of live' and try not do to something against it, the world will burn. <_<
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#75
SimmyC said:
Popularity should NEVER be used as an excuse to do nothing. After all, if you simply write off crime as a 'fact of live' and try not do to something against it, the world will burn. <_<
Tell me you didn't just equate arguments and misplaced threads in a discussion board with world crime. Please tell me you didn't get that melodramatic about a damned fanfic board.

But, if you want to make the argument, I'll counter with this. Prohibition, which is what we're discussing. Doesn't work. Causes more problems than it solves as evidenced by systemic and secondary violence in the worldwide "drug wars." If it was all legal, there would be fewer problems and less violence worldwide. There would still be problems, yes, but not nearly as many.

Actually that argument doesn't fit. Because drugs and crime are real problems and this is a discussion about people getting annoyed on a discussion board. We're all rational people here. We can deal with annoyance without censoring each other.
 
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