Nasuverse the child of Shirou & Rin

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#1
Suppose after the end of Unlimited Blade Works, Rin in an effort to prevent Shirou from going Archer, decides to have a child with him (after marriage, of course!), what kind of skills and powers would that child have?

For sake of argument, assume that Shirou has full control of his Reality Marble (RM).

Now, the way I understand things, the RM can't really be "inherited" (or can it?), but can it be possible for the child to easily pick up skills such as Tracing and Projection? Also, the kid would easily be able to use the gems that Rin uses so often.

Now, if you really think about out, we can create a Mary Sue from such a child, and I want to AVOID that. Hence, I ask you guys,

What skills could the child inherit? And how many magic circuits?

Also, is it possible to transfer Avalon from Shirou to his child? What could the consequences of that be?

-chronodekar
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#2
No.

No, this is NOT how power inheritance work in FSN. For fuck sake, get the fact before posting somethingt like this. And we already have an Idea Thread, use it ! Making new thread for that kind of bullshit... :no:
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#3
Oh chill out Deathwings. It's not that bad.



Let's see...


UBW is out. Coincidentally, projection at Shirou's level is also out. That can't be inherited genetically or anything of the sort. Reinforcement under Rin's tutelage shouldn't be too difficult. Alteration, with practice is possible.

Rin's jewel magic is possible though I don't know what kind of affinities the child would have. Probably would 'not' have sword as his/her origin. He/She would likely receive Rin's magic crest.

To be honest the child probably wouldn't get much from Shirou, since most of his magecraft is derived from his reality marble and the child can't inherit it.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#4
Rin's child would be much like Rin, in terms of magic (as, for that matter, would Sakura's child, most likely). They'd be a Tohsaka magus specialising in jewel magecraft. As several people have pointed out, Shirou would provide very little to the child, in terms of magical ability, because his abilities come from his RM.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#5
Oh man, I'm glad I asked here before starting my fic. I knew that UBW couldn't be inherited, but I wasn't sure about the rest.

Hmm... yes, I was thinking that the Magic Crest would more likely come from Rin as well as his affinity to Jewel magic.

And projection - to create swords with your own od (or prana?), well, yes that comes from Shirou's UBW and I was half guessing that it wouldn't be transferable.

Reinforcement - this means to "upgrade" an object right? By upgrade, I mean, increase the sharpness of a knife, or make a pistol more accurate by reducing its recoil, ... etc? While not "inheritable", considering that Shirou is essentially a Grand Master at this, I'd say that he could teach it to his child considerably quicker than anyone else.

Alteration - this means to "add a new property" or even to change the existing structure, right? Let's say we have a magic jewel. Can Alteration be used to create a sword or small knife from it?

Also, from the fic "From Fake Dreams" I understand that there are 2 affinities for a person. i.e. their element and origin. Is this part of Nasuverse-lore or just made up? If it is, then can the child have "sword" as an element? I'm trying to give the little one some kind of sword fighting skills along the lines of how Archer handled his twin swords.

-chronodekar
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#6
Alteration - this means to "add a new property" or even to change the existing structure, right? Let's say we have a magic jewel. Can Alteration be used to create a sword or small knife from it?
I suppose, though that's a horrible waste of a jewel.

Also, from the fic "From Fake Dreams" I understand that there are 2 affinities for a person. i.e. their element and origin. Is this part of Nasuverse-lore or just made up? If it is, then can the child have "sword" as an element? I'm trying to give the little one some kind of sword fighting skills along the lines of how Archer handled his twin swords.
That's confirmed canon, yes. Shirou's origin and element were both 'Sword'. And Shirou himself is fairly qualified for teaching Archer's dual sword style, even if the child didn't have sword as an origin or element.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#7
So there are two directions to consider from here.

1) Sorcery Traits
These are bloodline abilities that are inherited simply by being a child of a magic lineage. There "special abilities" that allow you to do something interesting; the Edelfelts for example have "Ore Scales" which allow two children to inherit the Crest. The Tohsaka family doesn't have one; their jewelcraft is a teaching, part of the magecraft system they use, not part of their bloodline. Shirou doesn't have one--well, I suppose he could have some inherited thing he doesn't know about on account of being an orphan, and maybe you could swing it if it answered the question of "why this kid was alive long enough for Kiritsugu to find him", but... well, don't do that. Everyone would call bullshit.

Things like "which elements you use" have an inherited basis, but it's not rigid. Rin's an "Average One" who can use all five, Sakura (the hypothetical kid's aunt) had the unique "Imaginary Numbers" from birth, and Shirou's was artificially changed by Avalon, so whatever you give their kid, even if you make up something screwy, wouldn't be unreasonable.

2) Magic Crest
The Number of Magic Circuits a person has is fixed at birth; it's a feature of their body like how many fingers they have (although it's more variable than finger count). To increase a mage's power the concept of "Crest" was developed, where parents transplant a few of their magic circuits into their child to increase their capacity; this is like transplanting a few of your fingers onto your child's hand to increase their dexterity (yes hands don't work that way but it's just an analogy). You can pass down from parent-to-child multiple times and build up a designated "Crest" over generations. You can even add spells into a Circuit inside the Crest, so you just run prana through it and it the spells fires automatically.

Between Rin, who has a Crest spanning like 6 generations, and Shirou, who's a 1st-gen with no Crest at all, it's obvious the kid will be the Tohsaka heir, receiving the Tohsaka Crest, not the Emiya Heir, receiving nothing.

Now... here's where I'm going to assert that yes, this child might be able to inherit some of Shirou's magecraft. Remember that Ore Scales thing the Edelfelt had? Well Nasu said in an interview somewhere they exploited that and sent the two successors, a pair of sisters, to compete in the 3rd War, double-occupying a single slot; they both summoned Saber (they each got a copy of the same dude), and ended up fighting each other. It was one more example of how the 3rd war was generally a disaster.

One of them returned home to Europe and the other stayed behind in Fuyuki, and ended up marrying the Master from the Tohsaka that she met. And that's why Rin has the exact same Gandr in her Crest that Luvia has; they're 2nd cousins.

That means Tokiomi received the Tohsaka Crest from his dad, but he also got the Circuits with that Gandr carved in them from his mom. So Tokiomi's Crest contained Circuits from both his parents.

Shirou could implant a few Circuits of his own. If he added one of his spells, then his kid would be able to use it automatically. How useful that would be... eh, that's more debatable. His reinforcement magecraft is excellent, but it's a difficult usage of a simple technique that most magus surpass with more advanced techniques. His projection is really good, but without the materials and blueprints provided by the UBW, it's just really good projection, not really his Tracing.

So he could give his kid a really good copy of the most basic spells there are, that most magus learn and then leave behind for something more useful.

...Which actually sounds like training wheels....?
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#8
Hmm. I seem to remember a blurb by Nasu stating that technically Unlimited Blade Works could be passed on as a magic crest, but I can't remember the exact thing or where he said it. It would make sense though, since a crest is made from the circuits in a person's soul.

Shirou would have to develop a magic crest to pass on first though, and that is damn hard. His specialization in one thing might help him create a super specialized one however.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#9
@Muramasa,

What do you mean "a horrible waste of a jewel" ? The only way I know to use those jewels is to, well, detonate, like a mini-bomb or something. That, and to act as a battery for mana (or is it prana?).

I was thinking of writing a story where the kid has a large number of jewels with him and using Alteration changes them into the twin blades that archer uses (or a similar weapon). Then after the fight, he would revert the blades back into jewels, though, obviously, after the revert, the jewels would have less mana than before.

Does anyone have any info on the difference between a persons origin and their element? I was thinking of giving the kid an origin of sword and element as general - similar to how Rin is.

@daniel_gudman,

That's an interesting idea, giving Shirou some "latent ability". But since I'm thinking of writing, what's essentially going to be "next generation" fic, doing something like that would be BS, as you've said. And anyway, it wasn't what I had in mind.

My information may be inaccurate, but doesn't Shirou technically have 20% of the Emiya crest lying around somewhere? At least, I understand Kiritsugi had access to it. And it wouldn't be too far a notion to think that after the war, Shirou discovers some old manuscript or diary detailing how to get whatever of his legacy is left.

On the question of heirs, what would the kid be? As things stand, its overwhelmingly obvious that he'll have more Tohsaka traits, but would the kid be called an Emiya or Tohsaka?

Let me re-phrase that. After marrying Shirou, would Rin change her name to "Emiya" or will she insist that Shirou become a "Tohsaka" ? Personally, I'm looking for a reason where "Emiya" is the final answer.

@ttestagr,

That's an interesting idea, passing on UBW as a crest. ... But, I don't want to go there. The discussion that it would spawn would de-rail my fic too much.

Also guys, I'm looking for a villian. Someone in the Nasuverse who can control hordes of minions, but at the same time is not invulnerable and can be killed/defeated by a magus of Rin's calibur. Any suggestions? I'm not overly interested in "Dead Apostles" or "Vampires" and would rather like someone smaller. Do you think I could get away with an Original Character? (Or, I could just import Xellos from Slayers instead...)

-chronodekar
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#10
Rin's child
the kid has a large number of jewels with him
Now see, the idea is already inherently flawed. No child of Rin's could ever possibly have a large number of jewels.

Next you'll be saying that the child can actually use electronics or something.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#11
sigfried27 said:
the kid has a large number of jewels with him
Now see, the idea is already inherently flawed. No child of Rin's could ever possibly have a large number of jewels.

Next you'll be saying that the child can actually use electronics or something.
:blink: ... What the ? :wacko:

Well, considering that Rin herself only had about 10 jewels at the beginning of FSN, I guess the kid wouldn't have "large number of jewels". But if nothing else, he could always get cheaper alternatives. Or even have gone questing for his own high-powered stock.

I know there is teasing of Rin being an idiot of Computers and Electronics, but considering that she's supposed to be among the top of her class, I find that VERY unlikely.

... wait. <_<

:headbanger:

I just got trolled.... -sigh-

-chronodekar
 

deviatesfish

Well-Known Member
#12
This child will be perfectly normal. No magic circuits, no magecraft, not even abnormal. No special eyes, no vampire powers, nothing.

He will be a normal, Japanese high school student.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#13
chronodekar said:
My information may be inaccurate, but doesn't Shirou technically have 20% of the Emiya crest lying around somewhere? At least, I understand Kiritsugi had access to it. And it wouldn't be too far a notion to think that after the war, Shirou discovers some old manuscript or diary detailing how to get whatever of his legacy is left.
Even if the Crest was untainted after being splashed by Angra Mainyu, even if Kiritsugu hadn't destroyed it, even if it hadn't decayed from being underground attached to a rotting corpse for 10 years....

The Emiya Crest has no relation to Shirou. It would be like transplanting an unrelated stranger's kidney into your back. It might work, but 99% likely it would be rejected. That applies to Shirou, and his children.

As for the name, the kid would be the Tohsaka heir, so the name Tohsaka would be more likely, all things being equal... but traditionally a kid does take their father's name. Considering Japanese culture, though, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Shirou to be "adopted" into the Tohsaka house as a son.

In the end, I think it's more likely the child of Rin and Shirou would be "Tohsaka". I think it would be better storytelling to have a kid named "Tohsaka" that has complicated feelings about the history of that name, rather than simply shoehorning the name "Emiya" in because that's what you 'want' to do.

It's not theoretically impossible that the kid would have the same Origin as Shirou, but for the purpose of your story, yes, it's impossible.

Shirou's origin is already wonky because of his screwy past; most origins are actions, not things, for one thing, and for another it's highly individual. It's like the purest core of your personality. And figuring out what your Origin is... isn't easy, or even necessarily wise.

Elements are which of the five elements--earth air water fire ether--you can use in your magecraft. Exceptional elements exist; Sakura's "Imaginary Numbers" allows her to interact with phantasmal existences pretty much directly.

So if elements say "what kind" of magecraft you can use because of inborn ability, origin is "how and why" you use it because of your inclinations.

Transforming gems into swords... just sounds lame. It's too next-gen copypasta.

If I wanted to express what a magus raised by Shirou and Rin would be capable of, I would start with a statement like "good with flowing mana into gems (Tohsaka) and good with physical magecraft (Shirou)". Well gems are mineral crystals, with a covalent bonding pattern; and metals are metallic crystals. So something like "using Tohsaka gemcraft on steel" would be obvious. Because it's magic, I'd say that metal can probably only store a tiny fraction of the mana a gem could. But, if that tiny fraction of mana is directly injected into the enemy's body because the metal it was soaked into was a bullet, that could still be an effective weapon.

I guess I'm saying take a wikiwalk and come up with something non-obvious but with a clear lineage in retrospect. If you absolutely totally have to give this kid a special ability, make it special, instead of just combining two monsters in Monster Rancher to get a blended monster.

In the end...

I don't want to read a story about MOAR BATTLEZ when everyone involved is an OC. It could work, but... not the way you are presenting it.

This story should be about the relationship between these family members. If the child is getting into BATTLEZ because they're chasing after dad, and mom and dad have complicated feelings about that, that could be good.

When you posted the OP, I got the impression you wanted to write something like "Rin drags Shirou away from his hero-complex with a child" which would be a little more "soap opera" than I usually advise, but it could work.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#14
If the child received anything from Shirou, it could be a predisposition towards ''Item Creation''.

Creation of artifacts/mystic codes/conceptual weapons etc.

Not by projection, but by actually making the item.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#15
@daniel_gudman,

I was worried if anyone would say that. Considering that Shirou is adopted (or possibly half-adopted as far as magecraft is concerned), I was hoping that there was some loop-hole I could exploit. BUT, it just doesn't make sense to have Rin change her name. And it DOES make a LOT of sense for Shirou to get adopted into the Tohsaka lineage.

As far as I'm concerned, the kid doesn't need to have any "special" ability. Just being good with gems and swords would work for me. Though, a stronger focus on the magic ability is preferred.

As far as my "plot" is concerned, I want to do a cross-over. It seems to be the new fashion to "inject" Shirou into every other anime out there and I want to do something different. That, apart from the fact that I do NOT want to bother with UBW. Though, I want to have some variant of Projection if I can make it believable.

May as well spill what I've got on my mind anyway - There is another harem anime where the protagonist is a wimp (Aren't they all?). I want to replace the main character with the son of Rin & Shirou. Someone who has a backbone. Now, unlike what's going on with "In Flight", the harem I'm thinking of is more slice-of-life or romantic comedy than anything else. And from the get-go I'm thinking of hooking the hero with one of the girls and seeing where the plot goes (Before anyone asks, polygamy or any of it's variants, is NOT my thing).

And as with most slice-of-life shows, it's not easy to tell when to stop. I don't want to blindly follow the manga/anime, so I was thinking of introducing some bad-guy (who makes occasional appearances) and end the story with his/her defeat.

I might do some BATTLEZ, but that won't really be the focus of the story. More like, I'll just use those occasionally to move the plot forward.

And as far as relationships go, I'm thinking of keeping the new Tohsaka family together. I don't see any reason why the son should come from an unhappy home. For that matter, I'll probably bring in Rin/Shirou as special guests into the story.

Hmmm... yes, I think I DO need to do a wiki-walk. Just need to get the time for it one of these days. Perhaps after my tests? Hmm...

Oh and what you said - "Rin drags Shirou away from his hero-complex with a child", in a nutshell, I'm planning a story where she's succeeded with that and telling the tale of the child. Hence, all my "skill inheritance" questions.

Opps, I think I'm rambling now. Sorry! :sweat:

Thanks a lot, you've given me a lot of food for thought.

-chronodekar
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#16
@Muramasa,

That's an interesting idea. "Item Creation" - didn't think of it before. In fact, something like that would be useful in an Omiai. Yes, I'm planning one of those, with Rin doing the bargaining on the Tohsaka side for her son.

-chronodekar
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#17
chronodekar said:
sigfried27 said:
the kid has a large number of jewels with him
Now see, the idea is already inherently flawed. No child of Rin's could ever possibly have a large number of jewels.

Next you'll be saying that the child can actually use electronics or something.
:blink: ... What the ? :wacko:

Well, considering that Rin herself only had about 10 jewels at the beginning of FSN, I guess the kid wouldn't have "large number of jewels". But if nothing else, he could always get cheaper alternatives. Or even have gone questing for his own high-powered stock.

I know there is teasing of Rin being an idiot of Computers and Electronics, but considering that she's supposed to be among the top of her class, I find that VERY unlikely.

... wait. <_<

:headbanger:

I just got trolled.... -sigh-

-chronodekar
...I was trolling? Wasn't the intent. Joking about the situation maybe, but not trolling.

And it is a legitimate claim.

Jewel thaumaturgy

???? - Houseki majutsu

The type of thaumaturgy the Tohsaka family is especially skilled at (of course, not the type they are limited to). Allows for the instant use of high thaumaturgy. Jewels accumulate the thoughts of their owners easily and so, the same goes for Prana. Among them, there are those that have slept beneath the surface for years in which nature spirits can develop easily. Hence jewels can act as a simple crest just by the developed alignment of those nature spirits.

Storing Prana will result in that energy being stained by the alignment of that jewel. For instance, a jewel in which a spirit of fire dwells will make that energy-oriented towards ignition. A more specific example would be topaz's best suited applications for anti-spirit tasks (the topaz used in the Fate prologue was laced with a wind spell). Depending on the use, an old jewel that the previous owner had lost could have a stronger effect.

Releasing all of that energy (like a bomb or triggering a bullet) will result in the jewel turning to ash and an effect that matches the jewel. The alignment of the jewel can also be chained for different uses, but the overall effect will decrease. Also, just simply removing the energy and using it as backup energy is possible without destroying the jewel, but again, this is will decrease the optimal effect.

Over 10,000,000 yen per jewel. Rin has 10 of these and ends up using them all up by the end of the game. The amount of energy stored in the ones that Rin used are equivalent to A in rank, with over 10 years worth of accumulated energy. Of course, it would take a direct hit from four of these to kill Berserker once.
I leave the whole description in for the sake of information since you seem to be looking for information in general, but only the last paragraph really pertains to what I was saying.

The jewels for her magic are expensive, and a large time investment to reach optimal effect. That's why Rin is always upset about lacking as much money as she'd like, because her magic is an expensive one. As such, it is highly doubtful that Rin's child would be carrying around a large number of jewels with him at any given time.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#18
Considering that her own gems were most likely her inheritance and she used all of them, that's doubly true. She doesn't have any gems to pass down to her kid. :sweat:
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#19
Yeah, hence the question of "would synthetic gems work".

Rubicon makes insulating wafers for the semiconductor industry.

They're mass-producing 200 kg sapphires.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#20
Can't think of any reason why synthetic gems would be less capable of storing magic than naturally formed ones.

Problem with an overstock of jewels is that Rin is always going to have a limit of how much od she can transfer.

That said, if you want to mix Shirou's physical talents and Rin's energy talents, you could use jewels to enhance the body and fight with Ba Ji Quan at close range - that's something Rin does in Fate/Unlimited Codes to buff herself to Bazett tier at melee.

OK, so, LOL GAME. But Rin attached a jewel to her torso to let her tank Berserker's grip in Fate, so there's proof of the concept.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#21
sigfried27 said:
...I was trolling? Wasn't the intent. Joking about the situation maybe, but not trolling.

And it is a legitimate claim.

The jewels for her magic are expensive, and a large time investment to reach optimal effect. That's why Rin is always upset about lacking as much money as she'd like, because her magic is an expensive one. As such, it is highly doubtful that Rin's child would be carrying around a large number of jewels with him at any given time.
I take back what I said about the trolling.

As for her jewels, I didn't realize that she used them all up by the end of FSN. A pity about that, but I don't need an uber-powered character anyway.

Still, if those jewels could carry a charge of "A" rank, then I guess, using jewels/gems of a cheaper variety would give us at least a "C", right? Though, "D" would be more common.

Can the jewels be thought of as mana-battries? Like, an "E" rank could perhaps hold 30 units of mana charge, while a "B" rank could hold as much as 2000 units of mana?

Thinking in terms of Final Fantasy, then would it be too much of a stretch to think of the gems as ethers?

Also, does anyone have an idea of what the Tohsaka family did for a living? All (or most of) these magic families have huge estates, but how would they pass themselves off in the normal world?

-chronodekar
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#22
chronodekar said:
And as far as relationships go, I'm thinking of keeping the new Tohsaka family together. I don't see any reason why the son should come from an unhappy home. For that matter, I'll probably bring in Rin/Shirou as special guests into the story.
Well, I see no real reason for Rin and Shirou to break up, honestly. As for the name, "Tohsaka" seems more likely, although I could just about believe Rin taking Shirou's name.

Also, what about "aunt" Sakura? Any idea what happens to her here? She is still Rin's sister, after all, and I don't see Rin just forgetting about her, and nor do I see Rin not telling Shirou.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#23
Cherry_lover said:
Also, what about "aunt" Sakura? Any idea what happens to her here? She is still Rin's sister, after all, and I don't see Rin just forgetting about her, and nor do I see Rin not telling Shirou.
Maybe she's just not important enough to the story to bring up.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#24
Still, if those jewels could carry a charge of "A" rank, then I guess, using jewels/gems of a cheaper variety would give us at least a "C", right? Though, "D" would be more common.
This bothers me a bit... Why would the jewels monetary value indicate prana capacity? Is it simply Rin going on a misconception or is it humanities belief altering the properties of the jewel?
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#25
daniel_gudman said:
Cherry_lover said:
Also, what about "aunt" Sakura? Any idea what happens to her here? She is still Rin's sister, after all, and I don't see Rin just forgetting about her, and nor do I see Rin not telling Shirou.
Maybe she's just not important enough to the story to bring up.
She's Rin's sister. I'd say that makes her pretty damn important....
 
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