Nasuverse the child of Shirou & Rin

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#51
My take on what their kid would look like, thaumaturgically:

Magic Circuits
It's noted that Rin has a quite high number of circuits (forty), and Shirou also has an above-average amount (twenty-seven). Rin has above-average quality of circuits, and Shirou has low-quality circuits (although that may not be his natural state, considering his building circuits from nerves and all).

As these two factors seem to be at least somewhat inheritable, then the child would probably have a significant number of magic circuits of at least average quality.

Origin & Element
Element does seem to be at least somewhat inheritable; for example, the Makiri/Matou family has a pretty consistent Element of water. But it's not completely predictable; Rin and Sakura both have very unusual elements (All classical elements and Imaginary), and I quite doubt that either of their parents had either.

Shirou's element at biological birth is unknown, and his element of 'Sword' is certainly from his later more artificial birth - which would hypothetically have an inheritable impact is unknown.

If you must have a more unusual element for their child, then go with Metal, but I would consider one of the classical elements to be most likely (Fire or Earth, perhaps).

Origin is most definitely not inheritable; your origin is your fate, your destiny (or more the other way around; your origin attracts what you would consider your destiny). Shirou's was changed by Avalon, but I would argue that that's more the result of him being for all thaumaturgical intents and purposes a breathing corpse when it was implanted.

Magic Crest
Now this is where it gets interesting. I don't know if someone can inherit circuits passed down from both parents, but I don't see why not. Does this mean that Shirou could 'contribute' to the Tohsaka crest (or start a new Emiya crest)? Perhaps. And certainly then at least some of his abilities might be thus inherited.

Actually, considering the sorrow of Sakura and Rin, I would consider it quite likely that one kid would inherit the Tohsaka crest, but Shirou would donate some of his to the other kid as a first-generation crest (ie, creating effectively a cadet branch of the Tohsaka family). And maybe Rin would donate a couple of her circuits to such an endeavor.

Hmmm... I know that the crest is formed by each heir donating a circuit or two when it comes time to pass it down, but is there a limit to how much can be donated?

Heh... more fun would be in a situation that includes Saber; she has a Magic Core, rather than circuits.
 
#52
Okay, finally caught the formatting problem keeping my posts blank:


Cherry_lover said:
I don't see Rin just forgetting about her, and nor do I see Rin not telling Shirou.
Rin absolutely will not tell Shirou that Sakura is her sister, unless something forces her to do so. Because if Rin acknowledges Sakura as her sister, all the pain and self-hatred from letting Sakura get taken away will come roaring back.

Rin CAN'T think of Sakura as her sister. Thinking of Sakura as a Matou child is how Rin deals with it.

Rin CAN'T question her father's decision to give Sakura away, because she devoted her entire life to her father's way of thinking. If her pillar is suspect, then her whole life is suspect, and what was the good of all that pain?

So Rin won't acknowledge it unless Sakura's life is in danger. Because as long as Sakura is alive, Rin can tell herself that things are fine.


Of course, if Rin knew for a fact what the Matou had done to Sakura, there would be no stopping the Tohsaka Wrath.
 

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#53
There was an amusing one-shot where Rin finds out about Sakura's training and confronts Shinji for his part in it - it wasn't a fortunate event for the idiot.
 
#55
Sunhawk said:
There was an amusing one-shot where Rin finds out about Sakura's training and confronts Shinji for his part in it - it wasn't a fortunate event for the idiot.
"Mind of Aluminum", and it was far from the only funny thing in the story. More like the climax to one long, satisfying gag.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#56

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#57
Sunder the Gold said:
Okay, finally caught the formatting problem keeping my posts blank:


Cherry_lover said:
I don't see Rin just forgetting about her, and nor do I see Rin not telling Shirou.
Rin absolutely will not tell Shirou that Sakura is her sister, unless something forces her to do so. Because if Rin acknowledges Sakura as her sister, all the pain and self-hatred from letting Sakura get taken away will come roaring back.

Rin CAN'T think of Sakura as her sister. Thinking of Sakura as a Matou child is how Rin deals with it.

Rin CAN'T question her father's decision to give Sakura away, because she devoted her entire life to her father's way of thinking. If her pillar is suspect, then her whole life is suspect, and what was the good of all that pain?

So Rin won't acknowledge it unless Sakura's life is in danger. Because as long as Sakura is alive, Rin can tell herself that things are fine.


Of course, if Rin knew for a fact what the Matou had done to Sakura, there would be no stopping the Tohsaka Wrath.
Honestly, I don't buy that. Sure she wouldn't tell him quickly, but if he's going to end up marrying her she's surely going to have to tell him her past, and that means telling him about her sister. I just feel that a proper relationship requires that level of honesty.

Plus, Rin is capable of character development. She might not want to deal with the issues with her father's way of thinking just yet, but she's going to have to eventually, particularly if she wants to keep Shirou around. The two are just not compatible.
 

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#58
daniel_gudman said:
Sunhawk said:
My take on what their kid would look like, thaumaturgically:
If you must have a more unusual element for their child, then go with Metal, but I would consider one of the classical elements to be most likely (Fire or Earth, perhaps).
Metal already is one of the classical elements.
Depends which thaumaturgic system you use; Fire/Water/Earth is consistent, but the other two are either Air/Ether or Wood/Metal, depending on the system.
 

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#59
Cherry_lover said:
Honestly, I don't buy that. Sure she wouldn't tell him quickly, but if he's going to end up marrying her she's surely going to have to tell him her past, and that means telling him about her sister. I just feel that a proper relationship requires that level of honesty.
A magi? Honesty?

While Rin is not about to conduct experimentation and stuff (she's a marshmallow), her 'pride as a magus' tends towards secrecy at least. Plus, I would say she feels that that's Sakura's secret, not hers - thus she would be very reluctant to expose the relationship, as it's not her secret to reveal.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#60
Sunhawk said:
daniel_gudman said:
Sunhawk said:
My take on what their kid would look like, thaumaturgically:
If you must have a more unusual element for their child, then go with Metal, but I would consider one of the classical elements to be most likely (Fire or Earth, perhaps).
Metal already is one of the classical elements.
Depends which thaumaturgic system you use; Fire/Water/Earth is consistent, but the other two are either Air/Ether or Wood/Metal, depending on the system.
Nasuverse explicitly has both. An individual is one or the other, but both systems exist side-by-side.
 

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#61
Sunder the Gold said:
Sunhawk said:
There was an amusing one-shot where Rin finds out about Sakura's training and confronts Shinji for his part in it - it wasn't a fortunate event for the idiot.
"Mind of Aluminum", and it was far from the only funny thing in the story. More like the climax to one long, satisfying gag.
No, this was a different one where Rin finds out. It might not've been a oneshot, but I recall the confrontation being written out.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#62
Sunhawk said:
Cherry_lover said:
Honestly, I don't buy that. Sure she wouldn't tell him quickly, but if he's going to end up marrying her she's surely going to have to tell him her past, and that means telling him about her sister. I just feel that a proper relationship requires that level of honesty.
A magi? Honesty?

While Rin is not about to conduct experimentation and stuff (she's a marshmallow), her 'pride as a magus' tends towards secrecy at least. Plus, I would say she feels that that's Sakura's secret, not hers - thus she would be very reluctant to expose the relationship, as it's not her secret to reveal.
The thing is, whilst I can perhaps see Rin taking that attitude, I cannot see Shirou accepting it. She might be a magus, but he's not.

I think that, for their relationship to actually last, Rin does need to open up to him. Otherwise there is always going to be a barrier between them in that respect.

And, no, it is not any more Sakura's secret than it is hers. They are both part of it and are both keeping it secret from everyone else. Plus, she hardly sees it as solely Sakura's decision, if Sakura came to her and demanded Rin be sisterly towards her she would say no, or at least she believes she would.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#63
Cherry_lover said:
if Sakura came to her and demanded Rin be sisterly towards her
See this right here, this if, I just... my first reaction was something like, "Mike, don't you understand Sakura's character? Like at all?"
 

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#65
Cherry_lover said:
The thing is, whilst I can perhaps see Rin taking that attitude, I cannot see Shirou accepting it. She might be a magus, but he's not.
And he's not going to know unless either of the two tell him. That's part of what makes it a little tragedy plotline - that things could become better if only.

Cherry_lover said:
And, no, it is not any more Sakura's secret than it is hers. They are both part of it and are both keeping it secret from everyone else. Plus, she hardly sees it as solely Sakura's decision, if Sakura came to her and demanded Rin be sisterly towards her she would say no, or at least she believes she would.
Ummm... this being Sakura, that would almost certainly not happen. For someone who centers their entire internet persona around a single character, you don't seem to get their canon personality very well.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
#66
Muramasa said:
You guys are really off topic.
As the OP, I'm actually finding the discussion enlightening. The original question was more to address the issue of 'what skills the child would have?', but personality is important too and the parents relationship goes a long way to developing it.

-chronodekar
 
#67
Only about 14 months stale and still on the first page, I think I can get away with this.

As pointed out before most of what the kid stands to inherit would be from Rin, mainly the Tohsaka family crest but there is some other stuff.

It's UNLIKELY in the extreme that the kid will be able to inherit the Emiya family crest from Kiritsugu and Shirou.

As pointed before it IS however that Shirou could create a new Emiya family crest for the kid to inherit. It's also possible that Shirou belonged to another magical family before he was adopted (I don't that random people off the street can have magic circuits) so there may be some sort of heritage there that could be inherited, possibly including a crest.

Now in descending order of likely hood these people may also effect the child:

Saber, UBW may end with Saber sticking around with Rin and Shirou, having sex with them (Rin mentions the harem belongs to HER, I believe) if that's the case then metaphorically Saber could be one of the kids parents, and what do you think having King Arthur as one of your parents is good for?

As mentioned before Sakura may make a new crest and pass it on to to Rin and Shirou's kid, particularly if she's involved with Shirou, making her, again, one of the kids parents in a metaphorical sense.

And sometimes Rider sticks around. again she end up involved with Rin and Shirou, etc etc.
 
#68
Actually if they had a kid, they might choose the name it <first name here> Tohsaka and not Emiya.
Theoretically Shirou can teach the kind projection, but without the element/origin of swords to help him project it and UBW to hold the blueprints he will not be able to copy Noble Phantasms.

IF he trains hard he might be able to project magical items which he can see (or has the blueprints of), but Rin will probably teach him real magecraft which will be much more useful.
Frankly, he(/she) will probably be weaker than Tohsaka because of Shirou's crappy circuits (IIRC if the parents have lots of circuits the child will also have a lot, but I might be mistaken). I would imagine a 'proper' magus like Barthomelloi would tell her to have the child with another man so it will be better at continuing her lineage. But I don't think Rin would do that.

The point is that the son of Shirou will not have a very high potential as a magi. If the child will have some kind of 'special ability' it will be something unrelated to his father (Shirou's RM is unrelated to his biological parents). All it means is that you have to find another way to make his special, an interesting origin/element or a cool kind of magecraft he invented will be enough.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#69
gemmaethanwhitaker said:
It's UNLIKELY in the extreme that the kid will be able to inherit the Emiya family crest from Kiritsugu and Shirou.
Shirou doesn't have the Emiya crest, and he's not a biological Emiya in any case. So, yes, he couldn't pass that on.

As pointed before it IS however that Shirou could create a new Emiya family crest for the kid to inherit. It's also possible that Shirou belonged to another magical family before he was adopted (I don't that random people off the street can have magic circuits) so there may be some sort of heritage there that could be inherited, possibly including a crest.
Shirou has no idea who his birth family are, and I very much doubt they were actual practicing magi (because they would have probably been able to escape the fire if they were, or would have just been well away from it in the first place), and even if they were their body and crest would be long gone.

It's possible he could create a new crest, but I don't see much point. UBW isn't transferrable, and that is the source of pretty much everything worthwhile that Shirou can do.

Saber, UBW may end with Saber sticking around with Rin and Shirou, having sex with them (Rin mentions the harem belongs to HER, I believe) if that's the case then metaphorically Saber could be one of the kids parents, and what do you think having King Arthur as one of your parents is good for?
She wouldn't be a parent in that case, though, just a very close friend....

As mentioned before Sakura may make a new crest and pass it on to to Rin and Shirou's kid, particularly if she's involved with Shirou, making her, again, one of the kids parents in a metaphorical sense.
I'd expect Sakura to be a very caring Auntie to the child, if Rin manages to reconcile with her, but I don't think that post-UBW Sakura has anything worthwhile to pass on. She hasn't really learnt any magic of her own, and the Matou magic is not something you'd want your kids to have.

And sometimes Rider sticks around. again she end up involved with Rin and Shirou, etc etc.
Not post-UBW she doesn't. And, I find it hard to see Rider surviving in a scenario where Shirou is paired with Rin, because Rider surviving implies Sakura's situation being known.
 
#70
Cherry_lover said:
gemmaethanwhitaker said:
It's UNLIKELY in the extreme that the kid will be able to inherit the Emiya family crest from Kiritsugu and Shirou.
Shirou doesn't have the Emiya crest, and he's not a biological Emiya in any case. So, yes, he couldn't pass that on.

As pointed before it IS however that Shirou could create a new Emiya family crest for the kid to inherit. It's also possible that Shirou belonged to another magical family before he was adopted (I don't that random people off the street can have magic circuits) so there may be some sort of heritage there that could be inherited, possibly including a crest.
Shirou has no idea who his birth family are, and I very much doubt they were actual practicing magi (because they would have probably been able to escape the fire if they were, or would have just been well away from it in the first place), and even if they were their body and crest would be long gone.

It's possible he could create a new crest, but I don't see much point. UBW isn't transferrable, and that is the source of pretty much everything worthwhile that Shirou can do.
A crest is primarily a means of transferring Magic Circuits, not spells

Cherry_lover said:
Saber, UBW may end with Saber sticking around with Rin and Shirou, having sex with them (Rin mentions the harem belongs to HER, I believe) if that's the case then metaphorically Saber could be one of the kids parents, and what do you think having King Arthur as one of your parents is good for?
She wouldn't be a parent in that case, though, just a very close friend....
I'm talking about on a Metaphysical level here, not a biological one, because Saber is sleeping with Rin and Shirou at the time and because she will likely treat the child like her own at some level MAGIC may see the child as hers.

Cherry_lover said:
As mentioned before Sakura may make a new crest and pass it on to to Rin and Shirou's kid, particularly if she's involved with Shirou, making her, again, one of the kids parents in a metaphorical sense.
I'd expect Sakura to be a very caring Auntie to the child, if Rin manages to reconcile with her, but I don't think that post-UBW Sakura has anything worthwhile to pass on. She hasn't really learnt any magic of her own, and the Matou magic is not something you'd want your kids to have.

And sometimes Rider sticks around. again she end up involved with Rin and Shirou, etc etc.
Not post-UBW she doesn't. And, I find it hard to see Rider surviving in a scenario where Shirou is paired with Rin, because Rider surviving implies Sakura's situation being known.
Considering that Archer didn't come from any canon route I don't see this as too big a problem, specifically when the focus will be on the child, not how her parents hooked up
 

Nephirin

Well-Known Member
#71
gemmaethanwhitaker said:
A crest is primarily a means of transferring Magic Circuits, not spells
Uh, no. I mean, yeah, it includes the transfer of Magic Circuits, but that's not the main function. The main function is build on the life work of a magus so that the next generation can be that much closer to achieving the Spiral of Origin. Thus, the main function of a Crest is recording knowledge and magecraft. Rin's gandr shots are typically pulled entirely out of her Crest because it means the Crest does all the heavy lifting of magecraft for her.
 
#72
I'd say they were created to enable or do that, but that's not what they actually do. Remember that the crest is actually composed of Magic Circuits, which may or may not actually have spells 'loaded' into them. One of the problems that seems to face modern Mages is the sacristy of Magic Circuits, you only get what your born with and what, if any, you inherit via a Crest, and apparently those you develop naturally isn't normally that many, at least by the standards of things you may want to do.

And one thing I read suggests that Crest Magic Circuits 'loaded' with a spell are useless for anything else
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#73
I think that what any child of Shirou might inherit from him is his element, so probably this kid would get the Tohsaka Crest and their spells from Rin and probably get the Shirou's sword element, or maybe something related like Earth or Steel.
 
#74
NO, Shirou gets the element (And origin) of Sword because Avalon was placed inside of him, that doesn't sort of work for any child of his
 
#75
gemmaethanwhitaker said:
NO, Shirou gets the element (And origin) of Sword because Avalon was placed inside of him, that doesn't sort of work for any child of his
I'm not sure if elements can be inherited or not, if they can than there is a chance Shirou's child will have the sword element (I don't think it matters if it isn't Shirou's original element).

But the fact is that the only thing that makes Shirou's magecraft useful is UBW, and for that you need the "sword" origin and a Reality Marble. And those two things aren't something their hypothetical son can inherit from him.

In the end, the child will only be worse if it inherits anything related to magecraft from Shirou, if elements are inheritable than he should be an average one (or at least have multiple 'basic' elements) rather than someone who has the "sword" element (or metal etc).
And Shirou's poor magical circuits will only lower the child's potential, the only thing Shirou can give is battle training. And even that is probably something other magi will be better at teaching.
 
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