The Criminals of the Kingdom

Prince Charon · May 18, 2010

Old guy: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Little kid: Well, what's the road to Heaven paved with?

That said, the whole 'spontaneously elected Queen of the world' thing bugs me massively. If that came out before the anime script about the Great Freeze was written, I see why: its much easier to believe that she's queen of the pitiful few survivors of humanity, than to believe that the Americans, Saudis, Chinese, Brazilians, and so forth all told a Japanese woman from the Moon "Here, you're Queen, lead us!"

EDIT: It makes for a nice fairy tale, but if you try to take it at all seriously, it just doesn't work.

daniel_gudman · May 18, 2010

Prince Charon said:

Zen Koan:

A wandering swordsman happened to hear there was a very wise Zen master in the next town. Curious, he decides to go talk to the man.

"Old man," he said, "I hear all kinds of things about heaven and hell from priests. What do you have to tell me?"

"A violent fool like you wouldn't understand even if I laid it out before you three times." The master said.

Insulted, the swordsman rose, drawing his sword.

"That is the gate to Hell." The Zen master said.

Unsure, the swordsman sheathed his sword and slowly sat down.

"And that is the gate to Heaven."

AbyssalDaemon · May 18, 2010

Prince Charon said:

Where it did it ever say that she was spontaneously made into the queen of the world? Crystal Tokyo is somewhere between a thousand to fifteen hundred years into the future. That gives a good long of time for a government to be created and expand.

... Especially given the befits.

AbyssalDaemon · May 18, 2010

daniel_gudman said:

Actually it was Chaos and Cosmos making those statements.

daniel_gudman · May 18, 2010

AbyssalDaemon said:

Eeeeeh I still think my point--they haven't bothered to check--stands. I mean, what if you detonate carbon/anticarbon next to it? What if you dump a couple megawatts of photons onto a few square inches of it? What about a fusion bomb? Would that do it?

AbyssalDaemon · May 18, 2010

Given that both beings are easily capable of destroying entire worlds, and that Sailor Cosmos's best hope for defeating Chaos was the equivalent of killing the galaxy on the potential hope that would be able to permanently defeat Chaos. before Usagi convinced her not too..

Also Chaos, Sailor Cosmos, and Guardian Cosmos are in the best potential to judge Usagi's capabilities. Chaos and Sailor Cosmos do to time travel, and Guardian Cosmos given her status as the closet thing that SM has too god.

daniel_gudman · May 18, 2010

"With enough gun..."

Aranfan · May 18, 2010

daniel_gudman said:

The "gun" seems to have to be magical. It also seems to be Usagi.

That said, if she's the only hope the universe has, why the heck is she being distracted by administrating this pitiful ball of rock and water? She should be out there saying the day! Or appropriate time interval.

Minami · May 19, 2010

You do know Daneel that Chaos also was implied to have all the abilities of his/her children right long before he/she gained the sailor title? Including Metallia, the energy-sucking creature born from the sun's radiation. Bombing Chaos would make it stronger.

Either way can we please get back on topic instead of another Crystal Tokyo debate.

Shiakou · May 19, 2010

daniel_gudman said:

Oh for the love of . . .

1. Canon says that, as far as the two strongest beings in the entire Galaxy know (which includes Chaos itself), only Usagi can wipe out Chaos. Canon also says that Chaos wiped out the rest of the galaxy before confronting Usagi. Any argument you make about some technological weapon being able to hurt Chaos, I can counter that since every other race out there tried and failed, that such weapons would have been ineffective.

And even if they were somehow effective, Usagi is still less likely to "fall into the wrong hands" or suddenly develop sentience and try to destroy its creators. Seriously, any technological weapon able to wipe out Chaos would by definition also be an even greater threat to us.

2. The entire world voted for Usagi to be Queen of Da World. You can find that unbelievable or whatever, but that is Canon. You can write a story where it didn't happen. . . but it would be as much canon as a story where Usagi was actually you in disguise.

Is it very unlikely that the entire population of the world would be united in choosing a leader? Yes, it's ridiculously unlikely. The only thing even more ridiculously unlikely I can think of is a set of molecules engaging in a sequential event which would five billion years later lead to the development of sentient beings with the ability to artificially mold the environment. . . oh look at that. That's just the way it happened.

3. Yes, Usagi could have refused and left the world to itself since she did not want to be queen. Just like a man who doesn't want to work sixteen-hour days in a factory in order to feed his children can just pack up and leave them. Just like Peter Parker let that first guy go early in his career cause he didn't want the trouble. Just like if I see a kid hanging off a bridge, I can just walk away because I have no particular desire to risk my life for no gain to myself.

I mean, if I had the power to help other people, was the only one to have said power, and the people asked nicely. . . I could just say no right? Because saying yes would be evil, right?

. . . Yeah.

Minami · May 19, 2010

Prince Charon said:

Didn't this get debunked already? The Anime Great freeze killed no one. Just put the earth on pause for a 1000 years until Neo-Queen Serenity freed them from the magical sleep. Think of it as one really long nap.

Here's another thing. Whoever said it was spontaneous. We're missing several years before Crystal Tokyo happened.

Usagi revealing herself to the public is going to change the world massively. Girl with the clear ability of reviving anyone and the ability to increase the human lifespan. She's revealed the existence of a galaxy's worth of aliens that are all indebted to her for saving their planets. She's also going to be revealed to have been constantly saving earth underneath their noses for years for no reason other than she loved the people of earth that much.

AbyssalDaemon · May 19, 2010

Anyway to get back on track.

Crimes that could probably get you locked up would probably be things like using time travel to alter the past to suit your own interest. Making a contract with Chaos or any of it's ilk.

Draining the life-force from others, given that it's apparently fatal. Mind Control. Using your magic to torture others. Summoning demons. Transforming others without their consent.

Also probably during the Silver Millennium a person at best would've gotten fined for going for going down to the Earth without official permission given the tensions between the two if anyone found out.

Shiakou · May 19, 2010

Just how would Usagi "punish" crimes anyway? Usagi isn't for punishment, but for redemption. She's the kind of person who would forgive a mass-murderer if that person underwent a Heel-Face Turn (a real turn, not a fake one).

I can see her trying to redeem criminals instead of punishing them for punishment's sake.

daniel_gudman · May 19, 2010

Shiakou said:

1. Yes. I repeat: according to people who don't believe otherwise. They don't know.

I mean, the Ginzuisho is a concrete thing. Just build another one, hell, build a better thing from the same principles. That'd be a better "gun."

What is Chaos made out of? Is it Baryonic? Okay, if it we can stream neutrons at it until if falls apart. I don't care if it's called Chaos it still isn't coming back from being reduced to a highly unordered state and spread across the universe.

I mean, it's not like we've never seen a senshi be corrupted because there's no mechanism for voting them out of senshi-hood once they turn evil.

Oh yeah.

2. Your argument, broadly speaking, is irrelevant. Saying "something improbable could happen" doesn't mean it WILL happen. Conflating that with the anthropic principle doesn't add value.

3. Right, because the power to kill space-monsters is EXACTLY THE SAME as writing zoning laws. Splattering monsters is exactly the same as being on the board of directors trying to figure out how to best utilize urban space that is intermittently attacked by monsters.

I actually think there would be a tremendous backlash against the senshi after they "revealed" themselves.

"What do you mean ancient space queens tried to conquer the planet!? What do you mean, life-devouring yoma!? Why didn't you tell anyone when it was happening!?"

Yeah Usagi can revive the dead and increase the human lifespan. She's also keeping how its done a secret.

There are two points here.

1) Usagi should rule because she is a senshi, and the senshi are strong enough to protect us from Space Monsters.

In turn, I have two responses:

1.1) "With enough Gun." I don't think Usagi's power is absolutely unique. I think whatever she can do can be done by others. And I certainly know that I would want to be able to bring people back from the dead. Why is Usagi keeping how to do that secret from me? I don't want her to do it for me, I want to do it myself. What if she's too busy or something?

1.2) Okay, we'll reward and thank Usagi from protecting us from Space Monsters. That has nothing to do with ruling over us. Saving a child from falling off a bridge does not qualify you to write effective and reasonable safety guidelines for bridge construction.

2) Usagi should rule us because OMG she's the nicest, most compassionate person ever.

Responses:

2.1) These are not necessarily good traits to have in a leader. I would prefer ethical courageousness and tremendous patience, and tact, myself.

2.2) Even if she is qualified to rule humanity, I'm saying term limits. I'm saying that no one person's competence matters, the fundamental ideal of a republican democracy is the government responds to the aggregate will of the people or they're voted out of office. Imagine a scientist wants to study how Yoma siphon off life energy and replicate that in a lab. She forbids it because it's evil. Okay, except growing a vat of algae and drawing life force off them to run a generator sounds like an environmentally-friendly, sustainable way to generate electricity.

This is the point on the "boo-Usagi" side that I think isn't getting across clearly. Nobody is saying Usagi would certainly be a bad ruler, although it's easy to think she would be if she was totally immune to and isolated from criticism.

No, the point is that a peaceful transition of power between political factions that don't agree with each other is the cornerstone of freedom. It is how liberty has come to exist. Whenever a coalition government falls apart and a new prime minister comes in and has to assemble a new government, whenever a US president is elected from a different political party than the last one, when this happens without violence, that's freedom.

Besides...

Even the nicest and kindest of royalty can rule over oppressive countries. Like, say, in Thailand. Right now.

Shiakou · May 19, 2010

daniel_gudman said:

Top Argument

1. a. No, they know. Or at least, they know as much as anyone is ever going to know, because everything else everyone tried failed. The only reason they know so much is because one of them could qualify as a god and the other was the subject itself.

1. b. Supposing you could build another Ginzuisho, there's still no one better to use it than Usagi.

1. c. Being a senshi =/= being queen of Earth. The former is as much a part of Usagi as her soul or her DNA. There's no canon to say Usagi can't be voted out of her queenship; it's just that everyone in the world wants her on that chair. However, her senshi powers are as much hers as any other talent.

2. I'm not saying "It will happen", I'm saying "It did happen". Usagi got the Ginzuisho. That happened. Usagi defeated Chaos. That happened. Usagi was voted Queen of Da World. That happened. It's Canon. We're not dealing with probabilities of the future here. We're dealing with history.

3. I'm pretty sure there's not a single tyrant, monarch, or any kind of individual authority (barring a supposedly omniscient/omnipotent God) that governs a kingdom on every detail. The worst tyrant still had to delegate most things. The best kings knew when to let others lead.

Usagi wants zoning laws? She asks a committee to draw them up. She wants urban planning? Same thing. She's not going to do every little thing herself nor make every political decision; no queen, or any other kind of human leader, can do that.

Bottom Argument

1. This argument, as stated by you, was never made by me or any other. The argument was rather as such:

Usagi should rule because everyone voted her into power. We then speculate on the various reasons why they voted her into power (because she's a protector, because they feel a emotional debt to her, because they trust her, etc.).

1.1 I believe that Usagi's kind of power is unique to her. It's stated by several characters in canon, and there's nothing in canon to state differently. Any kind of reproduction of her power would be fanonical; interesting, but ultimately of no relevance on this argument. Unless further canonical material is brought up saying differently, I must logically assume that such is the case.

1.2 I'd agree with you, but people have the right to vote for illogical reasons, and they voted for Usagi. For myself, I don't know if she would make a perfect leader, but I doubt she'll make a bad one.

2.1 She has those three traits by manga's end. Usagi's mind also seems to run on dual tracts: in trivial things she allows herself to be childish, but on important things, she displays wisdom backed by power. Even in the anime, Usagi visibly changes her behavior when things get serious enough. Either she has a dual personality, or she just allows herself to relax when the world is not at stake.

2.2 Term limits? Well, why not? Usagi herself does not want to be Queen of Da World for eternity. Her kingdom is even prophesied to end someday, and not neccessarilly in violence.

As with any other political power, Usagi will allow and disallow policies as she sees fit. Maybe a new political leader will emerge and be voted into being Queen of Da World (. . . they better change the title of it's a guy though). If or when that happens, do you really see Usagi as being one to prevent it? Usagi? The girl who said that change is a good thing?

I bet you, Usagi probably sees her political duties as something akin to important homework.

. . . I also think you're placing too much emphasis on "Queen" and equating it with "Supreme and all-encompassing ruler". It isn't. Usagi was voted into power, after all. There's nothing to say she can't be voted out of it. Remember, this is a Japanese manga. The Japanese have a thing for royalty, even when said royalty either does not have, or does not execute, much political power. It's perfectly within canon's borders to assume that Queen Usagi's political power is divided among several ministers, committees, or sub-governments. As far as we know, she does ceremonial stuff, makes general policies like "we are not going to war!", and keeps a look-out for insterstellar bad-guys.

daniel_gudman · May 19, 2010

...yeah, I know all that, but it's like...

It kinda creeps me out when turning the clock back like this is viewed as a good thing.

Usagi is like the ultimate eggs-in-one-basket thing, and it's like, doesn't that bother you?

Shiakou · May 22, 2010

daniel_gudman said:

Sorry for the late reply. Internet connection's been wonky the past few days.

As for your concerns, well, not exactly. Here's the thing: while I do have concerns about Usagi's queenship, they're more along the lines of "Now how can I make this work?" instead of "This political system is a step backwards".

First off, there's a couple of assumptions you might have about my political leanings.

I'm not entirely of a democratic persuasion. I don't believe Democracy is a step forward in government nor do I think it's a step backward.

Let's start with a textbook definition of the more common forms of government.

Democracy: Gives a small share of political power to every citizen in return for shouldering the responsibility of all political decisions. Power and blame is shared between all individuals. Usually goes hand-in-hand with Capitalism. Collectively, the individuals form the state (state here referring to the body which decides policies).

Communism: Gives a large share of political power to the people who then give it to someone else. This someone/s then act in the interest of the people while holding political power. One or a small group of individuals form the state and assume the responsibilities, theoretically for the rest of the individuals.

Monarchy/Tyranny: Political power is given to one individual or a line of individuals. This individual is the state. He/she has all the power, responsibility and benefits.

So far so good, right?

Unfortunately, humans are not so easy to predict or classify. The distinctions begin to breakdown once you realize that most individuals in a Democracy will simply not care to make their political will be known; that the leaders of a Communist state will only occasionally act for the benefit of the rest; and that's it's perfectly possible to have a Monarch who puts his people first.

Furthermore, Democracy isn't an entirely new thing, nor has its principles always come out on top. The Roman Republic came before the Roman Empire. The Athenians could be outright dicks about their own democracy, which is why the kingdom of Sparta would later lead an alliance against them.

So in my opinion, the promise of Democracy isn't that it's a better system for society as a whole, but rather that it's a better system for the majority of individuals: because, and let's face it, how many of us believe in the subjugation of the individual for the good of the many? No, we're individualists to the core, with freedom and liberty and the right to financially exploit the weak and the stupid as our motto (especially if they're foreigners and therefore not citizens): state security be-damned.

Which, to be honest, is why Usagi's reign sticks in our throats. She's a bleeding-heart humanist and she's in charge. The very idea of someone having authority over us is bad enough even if we voted her there. The fact that she could probably kick all our asses just makes it worse. She's the queen, in de jure and de facto and whatever bastardized latin titles you care to throw out. We don't like that because we individualists like to be think that we're the masters of our own lives, and of our fates. We're incapable of handing over control to someone else or trusting someone else without a leash to reign them in.

So, we judge all authoritative governments to be evil by default, including Usagi's and clamor for a piece of the political pie.

You know, just in case she really does turns out to be evil, after all. Really.

P.S. In short, it bothers me about as much as our current systems of governments bother me.

P.P.S. Recently, I seem to be incapable of making a post without building a Wall-of-Text to go with it. God help me. Oh wait, He's authoritative too. Damn you Go-

Ordo · Jul 24, 2010

Shiakou said:

Now there's an idea. What if all the criminals Usagi redeemed formed an organization dedicated to aiding people. These people have turned from darkness to the light, yet they may not be particularly nice when it comes to accomplishing 'good'. I mean if Doctor Doom was turned to the side of Justice by Usagi, do you really think he'd abandon everything he's learned and begin picking flowers? Or do you think he would use his power, influence and brillaint mind to ensure that humanity prospers under the Crystal Kingdom....

Hmmm imagine a 'Good' Vader-like individual taking up the role of Attorney General, or Chief if Naval Operationa in Crystal Tokyo....

They'll get the job done....they just might be a tad ruthless about it...

Hmmm I guess if they did organize they'd be like Grey Wardens from Dragon's Age with a touch of 'Benevolent Sith' tossed in...Their saving grace, they answer to the Queen and her government....mostly.

Fate Avernicus: (Standing in front of The House of Commons and the Queen) "Well we figured that there was no reason to bother this honorable body and it's members with the routine details of our operations...."

Comitte Head: "So nearly starting a war with our neighbors is routine for your group?"

Fate: "To be fair they were supplying weapons and armor to our malcontents in an attempt to destablize the governments rule...."

C. H. : "And that justifies the destruction of a moon and two refueling bases on their side of the border?!"

Fate: "....We hadn't expected the Moon to explode....not all of it at least..."

lask · Jul 28, 2010

As a great man once said, Democracy is the best goverment we have until we can build and impartial robot dictaor. Usagi might not be presented as quite as good as an impartial robot dictator, but she's close. :lol:

Deleted member 5249 · Jul 28, 2010

NQS's one canon beserk button was cold blooded murder. She looked like she was going to tear demande apart with her bare hands in the manga when he killed a little girl in front of her.

Ordo · Jul 29, 2010

SeiyaxUsagi said:

So how would she react to villains with standards, if not morals, or the ones that may have a good reason for the things they do?

Examples

The lovable seriel killer 'Dexter'
Doctor Doom
Magneto
Prince Nuada (Hellboy 2: Golden Army)
Nomac (Blade 2)

Minami · Jul 29, 2010

Honestly, I can see Neo-Queen Serenity understanding their reasons but then clearly warning them that if they continue. She will have to stop them.

Skelethin · Jul 29, 2010

Minami said:

With as many people as would be in the kingdom or whatever you want to call it...

Usagi CAN"T take the time to individually figure out the who's and why's and how's of every criminals past.

One thing that people seem to forget...

Usagi, by herself, and with the other Senshi especially, would be the MILITARY arm of any government they are apart of. They have so much combative power, they will never be anything BUT. They can take other roles, true, but they will always be a military asset.

You don't put a military asset in charge of a nation.

The fact that Usagi makes a horrible horrible military leader anyway not withstanding.

Usagi having the 'Queen' role being at least somewhat similar to the Queen of England currently(that is, more of a figurehead than a position of real political power) is a much better spot, and makes much more sense.

Something else that I keep seeing being hinted at with things like this but never really outright said...

Usagi will not be able to stay such a hopeless naive, yet unendingly compassionate ruler as she would start out as. Even with an unlimited lifespan... the bad side of life, of humans in general, and the darker side of humanity itself WILL wear her out, destroying many of her ideals.

How much and how fast it changes her depends. If she personally oversees all criminal trials... it will happen far faster than expected.

Some people are unrepentant bastards who do things for the sole purpose of seeing the world burn. Usagi would never be able to understand them.

The problem with trying to detail what happens to criminals in the Silver Millennium is that, especially with magic, there are so many crimes you CAN commit that its impossible to detail it too much.

Then you start looking for the lines.

Is stealing a magical regent worse than stealing someone's car(or equivalent)? How much stealing is too much? How little is too little to bother with?

One of the reasons that I suspect for the 'mind wipe/control' way of thought is that, to prevent the crimes from escalating from little things that at most are minor inconveniences to things that threaten the stability of the entire nation. The only way you can prevent people from going from the former to the latter at all... is to prevent their ability to DO it in the first place.

Deleted member 5249 · Jul 29, 2010

All Usagi ever dealt with in the manga and anime were evil humans with
A alien leader. Anime and manga version were both aware of the evils of humanity But she believed humanity was capable of greater good.

Shiakou · Jul 29, 2010

Skelethin said:

All this is based on the assumption that humanity's evils would eventually wear Usagi down, with the premises being that a) Humanity is sufficiently evil enough to eventually wear down anyone and B) that Usagi will be fallible by the method.

The first premise, "a", is unproven. Yes, one can argue that humanity is capable of great evil. One can also argue that it is capable of great good. Just because humanity causes you to lose faith doesn't mean it has the same effect on everyone. There are many examples of people, both real and fiction, who lived their lives through the worst hell humanity can inflict on them and still believe in mankind.

The second premise "b" is a fallacy. What people forget is that Usagi is not human. She's the spirit of the moon given human form. The idea that she has a limit to her compassion or patience similar to most humans simply doesn't apply.

And this;

is just plain silly.

An alternate title of the President of the United States is Commander-in-Chief of the United States' Army, Navy and Air Force. It's even part the Constitution. Hell, it's widely known that the U.S. President has the power to launch nukes, the most powerful military weapon currently known. That a nation's leader can't be both civil and military goes against history and most current governments including democratic ones.

Even fantasy counterparts carry this out. King Arthur. Sun-Wu-Kung. Aragorn. All of them were military assets, sometimes the greatest military asset of their nation, and all of them were also heads of state.

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