The Force Awakens Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter Contrabardus
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It's Star Wars. I doubt a May release will have any impact on the box office over pretty much any other date either way. It doesn't really need to be released in a specific window as a lot of other movies do.
Scheduling probably has more to do with what else is being released than a seasonal concern. Other movies sure, but Star Wars is guaranteed bank, especially after how well Episode VII did. It banked a lot of good will with fans and took back a lot of confidence lost because of the prequels. Rogue One looks like it will probably build on that as well. Disney isn't going to want to put it up against other big releases from them, and that's actually a pretty full schedule considering they have Marvel and their animated stuff doing pretty well right now.
It's almost guaranteed to kill pretty much anything else that's out when it hits theaters. A May 4th release won't hurt it in the slightest.
Scheduling probably has more to do with what else is being released than a seasonal concern. Other movies sure, but Star Wars is guaranteed bank, especially after how well Episode VII did. It banked a lot of good will with fans and took back a lot of confidence lost because of the prequels. Rogue One looks like it will probably build on that as well. Disney isn't going to want to put it up against other big releases from them, and that's actually a pretty full schedule considering they have Marvel and their animated stuff doing pretty well right now.
It's almost guaranteed to kill pretty much anything else that's out when it hits theaters. A May 4th release won't hurt it in the slightest.
Ordo said:
So apparently the table of Ashes Kylo Ren shoved his helmet down into just before Rey's interrogation.....well....
Man, they should have just said that it was Vader's ashes. Much more impact than some random dead people that we don't see killed or even know about.
JJ talks about Kylo's box of ashes:
“The backstory is, that that table has the ashes of the enemies he’s killed,” Abrams says. “That moment was actually shot for, and meant to be used in, the scene where he was talking to the Vader mask.”
In other words, that table of ash was originally in Ren’s private quarters. And the fact that he incinerates and preserves the remains of his foes adds a new, eerie dimension to his Dark Side nostalgia — and hoarding tendencies.
So Kylo Ren...baths his helmet in the ashes of people he's killed.....then puts it on...breathing in their remains....
I'm pretty sure if Leia knew that she'd never have sent Han alone to bring him back.
“The backstory is, that that table has the ashes of the enemies he’s killed,” Abrams says. “That moment was actually shot for, and meant to be used in, the scene where he was talking to the Vader mask.”
In other words, that table of ash was originally in Ren’s private quarters. And the fact that he incinerates and preserves the remains of his foes adds a new, eerie dimension to his Dark Side nostalgia — and hoarding tendencies.
So Kylo Ren...baths his helmet in the ashes of people he's killed.....then puts it on...breathing in their remains....
I'm pretty sure if Leia knew that she'd never have sent Han alone to bring him back.
I sure as hell remember a bonfire. I've seen people be of two minds about the whole force ghost thing at the end of Jedi.
So even if not his actual corpse, they could have hand-waved it and said it was the remnants of his armor and the funeral pyre.
Still would have been creepier and make the whole obsession thing even more obvious.
So even if not his actual corpse, they could have hand-waved it and said it was the remnants of his armor and the funeral pyre.
Still would have been creepier and make the whole obsession thing even more obvious.
Yes, there was a funeral pyre, but only for Vader's empty armor. Word of God said that it was empty and the body faded as per becoming one with the Force. Info books about the film's production outright state that the armor was devoid of a body--it was just the outer shell and prosthetic limbs that were cremated.
I dunno what's so controversial about those tweets. Obi-Wan did say that the Force is created by *all* living things. And that it surrounds and penetrates all living things. So it's only logical to assume that all living things have and use it to some extent, even if only those with large amounts of midi-chlorians can use it to lift cars with their minds and see the future and whatnot.
It sounds like he wants to go back to treating the Force like magic like the original trilogy Jedi did, and not treat it so much like science as the prequel Jedi did. Which I am totally on board with. Never really cared for those midi-chlorians.
It sounds like he wants to go back to treating the Force like magic like the original trilogy Jedi did, and not treat it so much like science as the prequel Jedi did. Which I am totally on board with. Never really cared for those midi-chlorians.
I must say:
THIS is interesting....and it might tie into what Luke has been doing since Ben Solo went crazy six years before TFA (Read Star Wars: Bloodlines). What if Luke realized that the old order got it wrong, and that he was continuing that mistake in his own teachings. He changed course, looking to create a more inclusive Jedi philosphy....and Kylo Ren didn't like it, not one bit.
THIS is interesting....and it might tie into what Luke has been doing since Ben Solo went crazy six years before TFA (Read Star Wars: Bloodlines). What if Luke realized that the old order got it wrong, and that he was continuing that mistake in his own teachings. He changed course, looking to create a more inclusive Jedi philosphy....and Kylo Ren didn't like it, not one bit.
But the three examples he picked first were math geniuses who did science.
The problem with walking back the MC thing is that they're trying to make The Force all things to all people again, and being too vague is basically giving their writers an excuse to do whatever they want. Just saying "talented people are Force-strong LOL" just means they can wave their hands and shout MAGIC at us instead of having a plot with cause-and-effect. I mean Star Wars is kinda shit as scifi to begin with, but come on, at least try.
In my head I expected (hoped) midi chlorians to be endo-symbionts like mitochondria -- a kind of psychic bacteria, the very fist life form in the galaxy, that has spread everywhere and become part of the physiological structure of all living things in the Star Wars Galaxy. (And maybe the Sith used forbidden genetic experiments to make their MCs more powerful but more carnevorous, thus creating the Dark Side... and what if other, minor sects also developed their own mutant strains of midi chlorians?)
The problem with walking back the MC thing is that they're trying to make The Force all things to all people again, and being too vague is basically giving their writers an excuse to do whatever they want. Just saying "talented people are Force-strong LOL" just means they can wave their hands and shout MAGIC at us instead of having a plot with cause-and-effect. I mean Star Wars is kinda shit as scifi to begin with, but come on, at least try.
In my head I expected (hoped) midi chlorians to be endo-symbionts like mitochondria -- a kind of psychic bacteria, the very fist life form in the galaxy, that has spread everywhere and become part of the physiological structure of all living things in the Star Wars Galaxy. (And maybe the Sith used forbidden genetic experiments to make their MCs more powerful but more carnevorous, thus creating the Dark Side... and what if other, minor sects also developed their own mutant strains of midi chlorians?)
Okay I can see where you are coming from. It's one thing to say for Obi-Wan to say "There's no such thing as luck", implying that lucky people like Han are just unconsciously tapping in to the Force to some small degree (but never explicitly stating it's true). But yeah, it's a bit much to claim that every smart person who has ever lived was actually channelling the Force.
Hopefully they can strike some kind of balance between "Everyone uses the Force man" and "let me draw your blood so I can measure your Force power level."
Hopefully they can strike some kind of balance between "Everyone uses the Force man" and "let me draw your blood so I can measure your Force power level."
It really isn't 'a bit much' to say that to be honest. Especially when you consider that the origins of how the Force work is based on chakra/ki/chi from Eastern mysticism.
Everyone has Ki, but only those who train can 'use' it. Plus, there are people who are more talented at manipulating it than others. Still, as these 'energies' are required for people to function, everyone does use them to a degree, it's just that they aren't aware of it.
I'm not saying inner energies are real, but the basis of the belief does conform with everyone having and using chi. It's just some are more sensitive to it, have more of it, and are better able to manipulate it, especially with training.
This was the original concept for the Force and it got retconned in the prequels to being something more sciencey, which actually goes against what is established in the original trilogy.
So, yeah. Han is using the Force when he's lucky or to help him pilot his ship. That doesn't mean he has the aptitude or mindset to become a Jedi necessarily, but he's probably stronger with the Force than most people in the galaxy, but not terribly sensitive to it. He might actually have the ability to learn a few Force tricks given proper time and years of training. That doesn't necessarily mean he would do that, but he may have the potential for it.
Think of Force manipulation as something like shouts in Skyrim. The Greybeards were not Dragonborn, but with decades of training they could learn a few dragon words and use them properly given proper guidance from a knowledgable source. Jedi would be Dragonborn, people who have an innate ability and sensitivity who are able to learn more easily and quickly, and are able to do more. However, just being Dragonborn doesn't necessarily mean that you'll ever learn a word in the dragon tongue, so it's not automatic that you'd learn to shout.
Despite that it does seem to be something pretty much anyone can learn to do given enough time and effort, though likely not nearly as quickly or as well as a trained Dragonborn person would.
Everyone has Ki, but only those who train can 'use' it. Plus, there are people who are more talented at manipulating it than others. Still, as these 'energies' are required for people to function, everyone does use them to a degree, it's just that they aren't aware of it.
I'm not saying inner energies are real, but the basis of the belief does conform with everyone having and using chi. It's just some are more sensitive to it, have more of it, and are better able to manipulate it, especially with training.
This was the original concept for the Force and it got retconned in the prequels to being something more sciencey, which actually goes against what is established in the original trilogy.
So, yeah. Han is using the Force when he's lucky or to help him pilot his ship. That doesn't mean he has the aptitude or mindset to become a Jedi necessarily, but he's probably stronger with the Force than most people in the galaxy, but not terribly sensitive to it. He might actually have the ability to learn a few Force tricks given proper time and years of training. That doesn't necessarily mean he would do that, but he may have the potential for it.
Think of Force manipulation as something like shouts in Skyrim. The Greybeards were not Dragonborn, but with decades of training they could learn a few dragon words and use them properly given proper guidance from a knowledgable source. Jedi would be Dragonborn, people who have an innate ability and sensitivity who are able to learn more easily and quickly, and are able to do more. However, just being Dragonborn doesn't necessarily mean that you'll ever learn a word in the dragon tongue, so it's not automatic that you'd learn to shout.
Despite that it does seem to be something pretty much anyone can learn to do given enough time and effort, though likely not nearly as quickly or as well as a trained Dragonborn person would.
Based on the "there's more to geniuses than being smart" part, I was hoping the force ability he was referring to was inspiration or determination or something, not necessarily intelligence. Like, there's a lot of people who have very high IQs who don't end up proposing groundbreaking theories, maybe they're just missing the force? Eh, it's not really an interpretation of the force that I prefer but I think it's got a bit more nuance than just "smart people are Force strong".
Also, an interesting headcanon about midi chlorians came up in a fic I read (I think the SAOxStar Wars crossover by Vathara), which said that midi chlorians might be correlated to Force-power but don't necessarily cause it. They survive in higher numbers in people who have a higher connection to the Force, but their population can be negatively affected by outside factors and that doesn't indicate a drop in Force-power.
Also, an interesting headcanon about midi chlorians came up in a fic I read (I think the SAOxStar Wars crossover by Vathara), which said that midi chlorians might be correlated to Force-power but don't necessarily cause it. They survive in higher numbers in people who have a higher connection to the Force, but their population can be negatively affected by outside factors and that doesn't indicate a drop in Force-power.
My favorite force theory is the Force as a noncorporeal, galaxy spanning entity that has a symbiotic or parasitic relationship with all living things in the Star Wars Galaxy, and some outside of it. The Force as some sort of divine or metaphysical thing like Chi doesn't mesh well with one solid fact about the Star Wars Galaxy: The Star Wars Galaxy is a fictional galaxy set within our own universe. The Movies place a long time ago, and in a galaxy far, far away.
Since there is no Force on our planet in the current year, we know that the Force in Star Wars is bounded, either in time, or spatially, or perhaps both. Either suggests the Force isn't a universal concept, and suggests something more local.
If you accept the E.T. easter eggs as canon (E.T. type aliens are in the Galactic senate in the prequels, and E.T. reacts with recognition to a kid dressed up as yoda in E.T.), then the theory gets even more solid.
Then there's Kreia in KotOR 2,
, and the Family in the clone wars series. Both are even more suggestive of a Force which isn't some universal divine concept, but something a bit more nuanced.
Since there is no Force on our planet in the current year, we know that the Force in Star Wars is bounded, either in time, or spatially, or perhaps both. Either suggests the Force isn't a universal concept, and suggests something more local.
If you accept the E.T. easter eggs as canon (E.T. type aliens are in the Galactic senate in the prequels, and E.T. reacts with recognition to a kid dressed up as yoda in E.T.), then the theory gets even more solid.
Then there's Kreia in KotOR 2,
who believed she could kill the force, and we have no reason to doubt that she could
The canon answer to that is probably that we don't have midi-chlorians. In the Star Wars fiction, all life forms generate and are surrounded and penetrated by the Force, including us, but only those with midi-chlorians can use it to perform explicitly supernatural feats. In the new Disney Star Wars canon, all life forms, including midi-chlorians, originate from a specific planet in the heart of their 'far, far away' galaxy (episode 12 "Destiny" in Star Wars the Clone Wars season 6). The midi-chlorians symbiotically merged with other life forms and spread out from that planet to colonize the whole galaxy. (This is presumably also why so many aliens look like humans, they are all distantly related.)
Unless those life forms and their midi-chlorians spread across the interstellar void to colonize our galaxy as well, then we are not genetically related to them and thus we don't have midi-chlorians and that's why we can't use the Force.
The Force as some kind of Cosmic Entity is a pretty great idea though. Definitely what I would go with if I wrote a fanfic.
Unless those life forms and their midi-chlorians spread across the interstellar void to colonize our galaxy as well, then we are not genetically related to them and thus we don't have midi-chlorians and that's why we can't use the Force.
The Force as some kind of Cosmic Entity is a pretty great idea though. Definitely what I would go with if I wrote a fanfic.
In relation to why Vader still had a body in Jedi after he died...
Obi-Wan explains that actually. According to him, more of his body is machine than man, so there would have been quite a bit of Vader left behind even if his organic parts did vanish.
There's also speculation that he may end up injured during the events in Rogue One and lose even more of his real body. Which explains the difference in the look of his suit and his mobility in Episode III and Rebels.
He could just be a head and maybe a few organs and partial limbs inside a mostly droid like shell by the time Jedi occurs. Something similar to Grevious in the prequels, but more advanced and human like.
It would also explain the difference in his movements between ANH and ESB. If he's injured and has a new suit that he hasn't yet adjusted to it would go a long way towards explaining his stiff movement and the slow pace of the lightsaber battle between him and his old master on the Death Star. If the rumors of his body being mostly destroyed and rebuilt are true, then it would be explained as him not being used to his new prosthetics yet and it having an impact on his mobility and speed.
Either way though, it does explain why there is enough of him left for Luke to carry his body away, and why there was enough of him left to burn rather than just a pile of clothes in Jedi.
Obi-Wan explains that actually. According to him, more of his body is machine than man, so there would have been quite a bit of Vader left behind even if his organic parts did vanish.
There's also speculation that he may end up injured during the events in Rogue One and lose even more of his real body. Which explains the difference in the look of his suit and his mobility in Episode III and Rebels.
He could just be a head and maybe a few organs and partial limbs inside a mostly droid like shell by the time Jedi occurs. Something similar to Grevious in the prequels, but more advanced and human like.
It would also explain the difference in his movements between ANH and ESB. If he's injured and has a new suit that he hasn't yet adjusted to it would go a long way towards explaining his stiff movement and the slow pace of the lightsaber battle between him and his old master on the Death Star. If the rumors of his body being mostly destroyed and rebuilt are true, then it would be explained as him not being used to his new prosthetics yet and it having an impact on his mobility and speed.
Either way though, it does explain why there is enough of him left for Luke to carry his body away, and why there was enough of him left to burn rather than just a pile of clothes in Jedi.