The views of the TSAB in Nanoha

[PCHeintz72]

Those that follow it probably noticed the flood of posts in the Anime being watched thread after some comment by me on my interpretations of canon actions in season 1 of Nanoha.

I figured it might be best to have its own thread...

Instead of reposting everyones statements, I'll just summarize what I had already placed in a couple of my early posts on my views of the TSAB's actions during season 1.

Some overall points:

1. The main issue seems to be a polarized view of TSAB as moral rights and authority, vs. legal rights and authority. And as a side argument of even if they are doing the right thing, is it for the right reasons...

2. They may be a fully sanctioned and legal authority and organization on MidChilda (sp?), but not on Earth. As such, I class them as vigilantes.

3. Their interests are just that, their interests, what was occurring would affect them, thus they were acting in their own self interests, and thus forfeit the moral high ground...

4. At several points it is made quite clear they did not particularly care about what happened to Nanoha, I note specifically Chrono's comments, and the Captains statements to her in their initial meeting. They also covertly monitored her after she agreed to help them... thus also costing them points for morality in my book.

5. All of the above let to my initial comparisons to organizations like Mithril, or Stargate, or even Sailor Moon.

6. None of the above IMHO makes them *bad* or *evil*, but I really hesitate to all out label them *heroes* or *good guys* either.

EDIT: One of my initial arguements also involved the fact Fate was not really guilty of the crimes that she was being charged with and the TSAB had no right to charge or confine her, since they seemed to be lumping some of them in with crimes committed by her mother. And I noted that the TSAB themselves witnessed the mother confessing and stating Fate had no such knowledge of what was really happening.

 

[Croaker]

And I noted that the TSAB themselves witnessed the mother confessing and stating Fate had no such knowledge of what was really happening.

Precia is both insane and a criminal. The TSAB doesn't have much of a reason to believe her.

 

[PCHeintz72]

And I noted that the TSAB themselves witnessed the mother confessing and stating Fate had no such knowledge of what was really happening.

Precia is both insane and a criminal. The TSAB doesn't have much of a reason to believe her.

She had no reason to lie, seemed quite proud of everything, her statements fit with the facts the TSAB had (they even kept the secret they learned from Fate and Nanoha), she was in control of the ship, not Fate, and Fate joined and helped them against her. and the reactions of Fate were noticed.

So... her statements only fill in the gaps.

 

[daniel_gudman]

One of the big litmus tests for me is how children are treated. It seems to me that the TSAB hold children fully accountable for their actions in a legal sense, even when they're acting according to the demands of their parent(s). That's... I don't think there are too many people in this world that would blame Fate after Precia's activities come to light.

Further, I tend to think any government that employs child soldiers is suspect. Without the emotional maturity to challenge their orders as "lawful" or "unlawful," without the emotional reserve to deal with violence, I look down on any society that employs child soldiers.

I get the impression that TSAB is the biggest, baddest kid on the playground, and has been for a damn long time, and there's nothing keeping them in check, politically.

 

[marthf1]

Isn't it an issue that the TSAB patrols innumerable worlds, but Earth just happens to be a world that has life but is not advanced enough to be administered? Just like in Tenchi Muyo! (though I think that was a slightly different case). Also, I suppose the TSAB is like the United Nations, but with an actual military.

I would lean towards the situation being like a parent making sure a child does not hurt itself. No matter how 'advanced' Earth is, it still in the the Industrial Revolution compared to the worlds TSAB administers. If that. Even Tatooine had space hubs, though it was a pile of dirt compared to Coruscant.

 

[Prince Charon]

First, a couple of TVTropes links, that are relevant to this discussion: Grey And Gray Morality, and Black And Grey Morality. The former is a conflict where both sides aren't really good, but aren't really evil, and the latter is a conflict where one side is really evil, but the other side isn't good or evil.

The TSAB has a generally grey morality, as do most of their enemies, though some are darker than others, and not everyone in the Bureau is morally neutral (Nanoha and her friends are generally good people, for example).

Mind you, part of it is cultural: Mid-Childa seems to consider you an adult, or at least a potential adult, as soon as you're capable of destroying a main battle tank under your own power. Really, that makes some sense - if you're that dangerous, you either need to be a very responsible person, or be very tightly monitored/controlled, so you don't kill someone while throwing a temper tantrum. Its been a while since I saw A's, but it could be that Fate's trial was less a court case, and more an examination to see if she could be trusted.

As for monitoring Nanoha, she's arguably a Person Of Mass Destruction wielding an Artifact Of Doom. Wouldn't you want to know where she was?

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

First, maybe my inner Anarchist tainted my response on the other thread, so sorry for that (i*loath* territory issues. Really believe those shouldn't exist).

1. The main issue seems to be a polarized view of TSAB as moral rights and authority, vs. legal rights and authority.? And as a side argument of even if they are doing the right thing, is it for the right reasons...

Even if your interest coincide with someone else's interest, doesn't mean you don't want to help them too.

Keep in mind TSAB knew what was happening, but rushed there only when they saw Fate and Nanoha creating a mini dimensional dislocation.

Being users of their School of magic, they had some sort of responsibility for it.

2. They may be a fully sanctioned and legal authority and organization on MidChilda (sp?), but not on Earth.? As such, I class them as vigilantes.?

Nop, they are a fully sanctionned authority on a large numbers of worlds.

Btw, i didn't want to go into that argument (because, to me, they shouldn't have to), but it's almost certain TSAB do have contact with Japan government.

3. Their interests are just that, their interests, what was occurring would affect them, thus they were acting in their own self interests, and thus forfeit the moral high ground...?

What was happening would affect everyone, and was partially their fault. Of course they'll want to wipe their own asses, especially as they are th only ones able to do it.

4. At several points it is made quite clear they did not particularly care about what happened to Nanoha, I note specifically Chrono's comments, and the Captains statements to her in their initial meeting.? They also covertly monitored her after she agreed to help them... thus also costing them points for morality in my book.

Rewatch that meeting, and Chrono's comment. It is fairly obvious Chrono had a small crush on Nanoha btw. Oh, and not telling Nanoha about fate? it was because Nanoha would obviously still have wished to do the same thing, but may have been less focused.

They never endangered Nanoha btw, they just didn't care if she actually won or lost her match- because in both case they should be able to do their job, which is capturing Precia and Fate, and it was obvious Fate wasn't ready to kill Nanoha.

Btw, what are you saying about Monitoring Nanoha? are you saying how they asked her to be on ship because of better mobility?

5. All of the above let to my initial comparisons to organizations like Mithril, or Stargate, or even Sailor Moon.

Ah, you are one of those people who think the freeze in sailor moon happened and is not fic-created, i guess?

6. None of the above IMHO makes them *bad* or *evil*, but I really hesitate to all out label them *heroes* or *good guys* either.

An organization whose job is to ensure the multiverse continues to survive, and who has quite a few earth-type population surely can't be Heroes.

? EDIT: One of my initial arguements also involved the fact Fate was not really guilty of the crimes that she was being charged with and the TSAB had no right to charge or confine her, since they seemed to be lumping some of them in with crimes committed by her mother.? And I noted that the TSAB themselves witnessed the mother confessing and stating Fate had no such knowledge of what was really happening.

When did Precia confess she had no idea what was happening?

"No Idea" means that Fate doesn't know what Jewel seed can do, that Fate doesn't know that she has to evade the authority in charge of making sure no one blows everyone to hell, and so on.

Fate knew about those.

She didn't know the *details*, but she sure did know about the likely consequences... and even after she learn everything, she still asked Precia to take her back.



Btw, as i said earlier, i didn't want to get into this, because i don't think they should do it... but the TSAB really does have contacts with earth, and the earth gov, even if it's just to prevent butthurt.

 

[PCHeintz72]

I'm rushed for time, as am leaving for work shortly... but...

5. All of the above let to my initial comparisons to organizations like Mithril, or Stargate, or even Sailor Moon.

Ah, you are one of those people who think the freeze in sailor moon happened and is not fic-created, i guess?

Incorrect... My view of Sailor Moon is from anime canon events... but not relevent to this discussion... therea are 2 threads in the SM section I contributed my views to. I merely have a much darker take of their actions, and Mamaru's explanation to them when in the future. I mostly view them as incompetent but bumbling and lucky vigilantes whom had enemies with bricks for brains.

None of which is relevent to this discussion though.

Btw, as i said earlier, i didn't want to get into this, because i don't think they should do it... but the TSAB really does have contacts with earth, and the earth gov, even if it's just to prevent butthurt.

None of which is shown anywhere in season 1 that I can see... all my knowledge comes from that... I can well imagine them adding that in the backfill this enormous plot hole I seem to have stumbled upon.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

None of which is shown anywhere in season 1 that I can see... all my knowledge comes from that... I can well imagine them adding that in the backfill this enormous plot hole I seem to have stumbled upon.

Well, we do know that there wasn't any news about the tree incident for example, and for a society as anal as Japan about those things...

Later on, there will be a few other such things happening.

And i still don't think it's a plot-hole: in the context of this magic, i don't think Territoy law makes any sense.

Nor do i think Children being unaccountable makes sense when some children could on a tantrum do real damages.

High-end mages are rare, but there are no way for them to be considered as other children.

 

[Nanya]

Okay, I need to say this now...

As for children in the military, remember this:

Other than Hayate, most everyone can join the military as soon as they can grasp the concept of consequences for their actions, in StrikerS, both Erio and Caro freely joined the TSAB at least as young as age 10. Nanoha herself became an official member of the TSAB between As and StrikerS.

Fate joined so that she would have more freedom to do more things, I.E., be able to leave Mid-childa and go see Nanoha, Yuuno and their Earth friends.

In StrikerS, Subaru didn't get out of training camp until she was at least 15, and she had the support of an older sister and father, both active in the military.

Hayate was a special case due to her status as the Master of the Book of the Night Sky. The Wolkenritter committed many, MANY crimes in their lifetimes, but instead of having them take the full brunt of the punishment, Hayate accepted a great deal of responsibility and was forcibly drafted to help share in the sentencing. Note that Hayate, until she gained full use of her legs, was not sent off on any really dangerous missions. The mission that injured Nanoha, for instance, she was still wheelchair bound. It's mentioned in the Sound Stages that Zafira gave both Hayate and Nanoha rides on his back while they regained the use of their legs.

As for Fate's Trial, that was more-or-less a lip-service report to the higher ups to prove that she wasn't completely responsible for what she did and that she understood what she did was wrong. (Listen to Precia or be severely punished, hmm...)

Also, if a criminal is willing to help with the aftermath of a case and recognizes what they did was wrong, they often times get a fairly light sentence of community service. (Which is why they get drafted)

Of course, you do need a good sponsor backing you up. Fate had Lindy, Hayate and the Wolkenritter had Graham at the least, Agito had Hayate and the Numbers had Genya (Nove, Wendi, Dieci, Cinque) and the Saint Church (Sein, Otto, Deed). If you don't have one, you tend to get a little more heavily punished (hello thar, Lutecia).

Of course, Lutecia's situation was a bit more unique in that her biological mother had gotten better and I guess she decided that it would be better to be banished to a developmental world (like Australia was originally) with her mother than be drafted into the military and stay away from her mother. She plead guilty to what she did, had a powerful seal placed on her and was shipped off after her mother recovered. Interesting note on that, before her mother recovered, Fate and Lindy were her guardians while she was in prison.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

Yeah, lutecia's detainement is Just Dreadful isn't it?

 

[Nanya]

Yeah, lutecia's detainement is Just Dreadful isn't it?

*Laughs*

All things considered, yeah, it's not bad.

However, when it was found out that she was being deported, none of that stuff was available on that world, as it was JUST terraformed.

All that stuff's brand new.

Plus, let's face it, what she did was no worse than the Wolkenritter, the Numbers or Fate, and she was the only one of the reformed bad guys (to use the term loosely here) that got forced to move away, it seemed rather harsh.

Plus she's still under that seal.

Oh well, at least she still has Garyuu, Megane and all her insects around.

Edit: Caro and Erio BOTH were shocked as hell when they found out that she was going to be deported off-world. Considering that both of them know that their primary caregiver (Fate) had been a criminal and wasn't forced off-world, not to mention the Numbers, other than Uno, Tre, Quattro and Sette, the first three because they wouldn't help in the investigation against Jail and Sette because she wouldn't leave Tre's side, all got off fairly easy too. (It's actually mentioned in the manual of SSX that if Sette wanted to leave Tre's side and live, she'd actually be allowed out of prison in a heartbeat.)

 

[PCHeintz72]

It occurs to me... *if* you guys are correct and TSAB has agreements in place with earth governments... Yuuno and the TSAB should be in even more trouble and are even more in the grey on morality... on a number of fronts.

Yuuno, after the first fight, should have made a beeline to the local TSAB rep, or government that can contact them, and call them in, and thus free up Nanoha from having to fight at all (and not endangering a civilian minor), and also Chrono being aware of events and not coming in blind...

I'm sure if put mind to it... I could think of more.

So... if you are all correct. Why was no mention of this made, and why the hack was Yuuno not incarcerated?

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

Yuuno wasn't with the TSAB at that time. His actions were intended to stop rampaging magical artifacts before they 'Broke the Masquerade' on a non-administered world and along the way he picked up a local volunteer who refused to stop helping him even while being fully aware of the danger involved. Things then proceeded smoothly, to the point that the TSAB didn't even need to bother getting involved: the local mage had everything well in hand.

And then a Midchildan mage shows up and causes a dimensional disturbance trying to seize the Jewel Seeds for herself. Cue Chrono.

Note that the TSAB didn't involve itself in a local affair on a non-administered world until an off-worlder started actively causing trouble. It's a perfect example of a law enforcement agency following protocol and only involving themselves when the incident became serious enough that it fell into their jurisdiction.

 

[Muramasa]

Btw, i didn't want to go into that argument (because, to me, they shouldn't have to), but it's almost certain TSAB do have contact with Japan government.

If you have any canon evidence to back this claim up, I would be very interested in seeing it. Because if that is the case, the implications of Japan hiding this from the UN is enormous.

Also, yay TSAB spy networks on Earth. -_-

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

Btw, i didn't want to go into that argument (because, to me, they shouldn't have to), but it's almost certain TSAB do have contact with Japan government.

If you have any canon evidence to back this claim up, I would be very interested in seeing it. Because if that is the case, the implications of Japan hiding this from the UN is enormous.

Who says they're hiding it from the UN?

 

[PCHeintz72]

Btw, i didn't want to go into that argument (because, to me, they shouldn't have to), but it's almost certain TSAB do have contact with Japan government.

If you have any canon evidence to back this claim up, I would be very interested in seeing it. Because if that is the case, the implications of Japan hiding this from the UN is enormous.

Also, yay TSAB spy networks on Earth. -_-

It cannot be a good spy network...

Chrono went in and did not know what was going on at all. Needed Nanoha's and even Fate's side of things...

 

[Nanya]

Note that the TSAB didn't involve itself in a local affair on a non-administered world until an off-worlder started actively causing trouble. It's a perfect example of a law enforcement agency following protocol and only involving themselves when the incident became serious enough that it fell into their jurisdiction.

The only exception is the Book of Darkness.

It's an "Omega Edict". Trumps all else in the charter.

Book of Darkness threatens EVERYTHING, screw protocol, get in there and stop it before it completes itself. So what if you wipe out a good chunk of a planet, better one planet dead than a whole multiverse.

Also, the TSAB came into that area due to word getting out that the Jewel Seeds were loose. If no one was going to seal them, then they'd have to step in.

But since Nanoha was there, like DKG said, they didn't bother. Heck, Lindy even said "we don't care who has them, as long as they get sealed.".

However, when Fate and Nanoha clashed for a Jewel Seed and caused a minor dimensional tremor, they went "okay, NOW it's dangerous, let's see if we can get them to work with us in stopping this".

 

[ringlhach]

As best as I remember, there's nothing pointing either way on whether or not Japan or the UN even knows any of this is going on.

That said, PC, in the last eps of StrikerS, you find out that the people running things are really brains in jars who artificially extended their lifespans, are pulling all the strings, and created Jail, the Big Bad, so it's really more of an incredibly massive, corrupt bureaucracy than anything else. Like in any bureaucracy, you have the ones that act on their morals within the rules, the ones that don't care about a thing if it's not addressed by the rules, and the ones that use the rules to the best of their own benefit.

I'd also like to point out that Yuuno was more or less conscripted into being the keeper of the Infinity Library. By Chrono, no less.

 

[PCHeintz72]

As best as I remember, there's nothing pointing either way on whether or not Japan or the UN even knows any of this is going on.

Then my original observations all pretty much stand pat. Certainly there is nothing in season 1 to contradict them, since they were taken directly from season 1.

I actually prefer it that way.

 

[bissek]

The only thing I can think of in canon that might require the TSAB to have some contact with the Japanese government would be creating enough official documentation about a girl named Fate Testarossa so that she attend a Japanese public school. And that could be done via a computer hack.

 

[ringlhach]

There's also wherever Admiral Graham's money comes from- I don't know how the Brits handle their taxes, but he has enough money to pay for Hayate's care and education and still have what looks to be a very nice home in the country somewhere.

Again, it could be a computer hack or a dummy corporation.

 

[Nanya]

The TSAB has several contacts with Earth. At the very least they've had an interest in Earth for the past 50 years or so.

Graham's from Earth.

Subaru's family originally came from Earth.

Hayate and Nanoha were from Earth.

In addition, Lindy was able to settle down on Earth and raise Fate there while she, Nanoha and Fate still went out on missions. I assume that she raised Chrono there and Amy stayed there for awhile too, but I don't know for sure.

A's epilogue had Fate, Nanoha and Hayate heading out to school with Lindy taking care of Fate on Earth.

Plus using cell phones to call between dimensions.

Edit: Which means, I assume, that there's some sort of currency transaction between the TSAB and Earth countries. After all, Graham lived on Mid-Childa and supported Hayate at that time and Lindy had no problems financially.

 

[toraneko]

Subaru's family originally came from Earth.

I'd argue that this means that the TSAB has had dealings with Earth for a lot longer than half a century.

The Nakajima family has apparently been part of Midchildan society for so long that they've lost most, if not all, of the remnants of their Japanese culture, except for their naming and (possibly, assuming you don't go for the Universal Translator thing) the language it came from.
Their naming order is even in Western order, rather than the Japanese family name given name order. That's a hell of a tell.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

The TSAB's only been around for about seventy years I think, though I wouldn't be surprised if Belka and/or Midchilda were in contact with Earth before then.