The Wheel Of Time

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#1
Alright, so here's the thing.

Due to the fact the the last book in the series is out soon, I've decided to do what I first planned to do when the Gathering Storm release date came out.

Re-read this series from the beginning.

Alas, time was not with me then, and I never did.

But now I have the time, and read I shall.

Its been just under a decade since I started to read the series, and the last time I read any of them was 2005, when Knife of Dreams came out.

So I started the reread, and have just started on Great Hunt when I thought - I wonder what everyone else thought of these bits?

So I've decided to do... not a review, more like a commentary, highlighting plot points, what I thought of certain scenes, particular characters, whatever.


Oh, and one last thing beofre I get started. Comment if you want, I'm more than happy to disscuss my feelings on things, but Do Not Talk About Gathering Storm or Towers of Midnight Not here, not now.

I haven't read them yet, and I don't want to be spoiled.





Since I've read EotW, I'll do that bit now, though it wont be as in depth as some of my later posts, which will probably deal with blocks of chapters.

So, first thing first - Rand is the Dragon Reborn. As I read bits where lightning strikes just when needed, or Rand notices something at the same time as Egwene or Nyneave, I think to myself; How the fuck did I miss all these clues? I remember being completely shocked when I was 12, 13, when at the end, the very last line if IIRC, Moriane calls Rand the true Dragon Reborn, but reading it now, the bear minimum of clues are there as early as Baerlon.

Moving on a little, Nyneave and Lan; their romance was slightly more foreshadowed than I first thought; they almost immediately get underneath each others skin. She's always just a little too happy to outdo him, or a little too fearful of diappointing him, and its pretty obvious that she's attracted to him. That Lan returns her feelings is a bit of a shock though. Not a total one though, its just, partly due to a lack of his POV, he keeps his feelings and emotions very close to his chest, and it never shows on his face. But despite that there are one or two scenes which show he cares; and I do mean before the Blight, when it was made blindingly obvious.

Before we go any further, I just want to say that I'm trying to give my opinion based solely on Eye of the World. But since I've read up to Knife of Dreams, half remembered scences and plots may cloud my judgement. I'll try to be impartial, but I'm not entirely sure I'll succeed.

Now, the POV characters, of which we have 3. Rand, who spends much of the book frightened, Perrin, who spends his POV chapters in the midst of denial, and Nyneave who spends her POV chapters angry, a little at her self, but mostly at Moraine.

So far, Rand is a decent enough young man, just overwhelmed by the situation. Perrin is much the same, (Mat is a slightly different story, lacking somewhat in common sense, and spending a good portion of the book dying; a disticnt lack of POV doesn't help his case) but Nyneave is different.

My initial impression of her was of a arrogant bitch who bullies people into doing what she wants. Then, when we get her POV, its a different story. Yes, she's prideful, and yes, shes harsh, and yes, she is a bit forceful, but only because she cares. I get the impression she's like a mother who hasn't quite got childrearing right, but that moment when she call Ran, Perrin and Mat men, its like "Okay, maybe she is managing to take a step in the right direction."

Moraine and Lan are more of a mystery, but through hindsight a lot of the things they say and do make much more sense, especially in Moraine's case. They're alone and desperate; desperate to complete their mission, but unable to seek help because even some of their closest allies would kill them for what they are doing. In hindsight you can almost see the way Moraine's plans slip through her fingers like sand. Choosing to go to the Eye is pretty much the moment when Moraine goes "You know what; screw it. For now, let destiny take us where it may. Fucking Ta'veren."

Thom is much more grandfatherly to me now than when I first read it, but also much more human. Damn cool guy. Can't for the life of me remember when he makes his return.

And now we come to the last character; Egwene; my main impression of her is of a silly little hypocrite of a girl who knows not of which she speaks and does, and doesn't listen to reason except maybe from Nyneave or Moraine. Maybe. God help Rand, Perrin and Mat (from now on, RPM) if they try and tell her something. She spends much of the novel trying her hardest to disregard everything they say.

Oh, she cares, and she's kind and often serves as a voice of reason but in this novel there are very few things to really like about her that offset her massive lack of common sense when it comes to herself and her own limitations.


Okay, we've finished characters, now onto the plot; simple but effective. They spend most of it on the run, before finally striking back. Questions are asked and answered, and shit tons of foreshadowing is laid down on the way.

For a moment, just for a moment, I want to talk about the similarlites to LotR.

Much of the first 2/3 of the book is similar in tone, and spirit. Run away, form a group and keep on running. But afterwards they reunite, and it take a majorly different direction. And considering the entirely of the series, that fine.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#2
I'm currently on chapter 9 of Great Hunt.

A question. Is Andor supposed to be Britain? The fact that Rand seems to have fasioned himself a longbow make me think Britain. Or is it Two Rivers only that is supposed to be a Britain?

Would that make Cairhein France?

I've also got Shienar down as Japan at the moment, cause of the bathing customs and top-knots mostly. Or was that China?

Anyway, not too much to comment on so far. The way Nyneave worries continues to remind me of an harsh slightly overanxious mother.

Egwene continues to be stubborn and foolish - First she chastise Rand (with good reason) then tackles Rand (on slightly shaky ground there), threatens and then attempts to use One Power on him (which she gets chastised for, but then tries to turn it around again) and then you find out she's been visiting Fain without Moraine's permission, and I'm like, "Idiot girl."

Further along, Moraine begins to remind me of one of the most interesting characters I've known in fiction. Dr Halesy of Halo, who had a "I do what I must, when I must, even if I hate doing it." mentality.

Also, I was smirking when she and Siuan were planning what they'd get RPM to do, taking the horn to Illian, when I knew that plan would be out the window before dawn the next day. There is something oddly satisfying about and Aes Sedai plot failing, even if they are the 'good guys'.

Edit: And Illian Brazil vibes now.
 

spooky316

Well-Known Member
#3
I remember the first time I read Eye of the World in 7th grade, and I similarly missed all of the Dragon Reborn clues. And I remember once finding a site that listed the accents each country was supposed to have. I think Two Rivers was Welsh/Irish. I forget most of the others, but I distinctly remember Seanchan because they were Texan. :lol:

Also, are you planning on reading New Spring as well?
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#4
In the Baerlon segment with Min, when she makes her predictions proves that Jordan fucking planned the shit out of the series.

Since you haven't read The Gathering Storm yet, I won't necessarily spoil it per se, but I will say that as the 12th book, it follows the tradition of the ending of every 3rd book (3, 6, 9 and then 12) having extremely wicked endings.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#5
spooky316 said:
I remember the first time I read Eye of the World in 7th grade, and I similarly missed all of the Dragon Reborn clues.? And I remember once finding a site that listed the accents each country was supposed to have.? I think Two Rivers was Welsh/Irish.? I forget most of the others, but I distinctly remember Seanchan because they were Texan. :lol:

Also, are you planning on reading New Spring as well?
If first read it at the age I am now, I think I would have got it by the time they enter the Ways, but I can't say for certain.

And yes, I do intend to reread New Spring at some point, but I don't know when.

In the Baerlon segment with Min, when she makes her predictions proves that Jordan fucking planned the shit out of the series.
Its always fun to look back on Min's or anyone elses predictions and goggle at how far back they went.

Min talks about Lan's past and Thom's past.

Perrin: Wolf,(wolfbrother) a broken crown(IIRC, he marries into a royal family with a broken crown, but my memory is hazy) and trees flowering all around him. (no clue).

Mat: Red Eagle (Mantheren) an eye on a scale (guessing he loses an eye at some point. Dunno when though, it hasn't happeed in the books I've read) a dagger (obvious), horn (he blows it at the end of GH) and laughing face (too vague for me to say).

Rand: sword that isn't a sword (obvious) golden crown of laurel leaves (dunno) beggers staff (?) pouring water onto sand (somethin do do with the waste) bloody hand and white hot iron (I have an idea, but I'm not sure. When he loses his hand to that female forsaken at the end of KoD) three women at his funeral (his 3 girlfriends) and black rock wet with blood (obvious dragon one). Oh, and lightning from him and towards him (indication he can channel, or something more metaphorical.)

Yeah, Min's pretty much a gigantic foreshadowing.
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#6
Sorry to say, but when I reread them the thing that came to mind was 'I actually liked these?' Especially any part where it had Rand, Perrin and/or Mat thinking about how mysterious women are or any part that had Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve in the same room. Especially considering how many times those three utterly messed up and forced someone to rescue them.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#7
grant said:
Sorry to say, but when I reread them the thing that came to mind was 'I actually liked these?' Especially any part where it had Rand, Perrin and/or Mat thinking about how mysterious women are or any part that had Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve in the same room. Especially considering how many times those three utterly messed up and forced someone to rescue them.
Be fair to RPM, most of the women they know are crazy, manipulative or bitches. Or a combination of all three. And they're about 20.

As for the 3 girls; well, it always rankled me that they could get away with insulting, belittling and just generally looking down on RPM; at least RPM mostly take care of their own shit. Nyneave, Egwene and Elayne need saving almost 3 times as much as they do any saving.


Moving on, I'm up to Great Hunt chapter 15. We've had our first Egwene POV, and its served to reinforce my opinion that in some ways she's just as immature as the boys. Well, not much has happened with her so far, just her learning to channel.


Now on to Mat. His distrust and mangaled feelings towards Rand are both easy to understand and hate. Rand is acting and dressing like a bloody Lord, and insulting them besides. Mat hates nobility, so it makes sense. And then when the truth comes out about Rand being the Dragon, and Mat sort of forgives Rand for acting like a Lord, but now fears him for being a channeler, and Mat hates Aes Sedai. His rebuffing Rand and sleeping far away is both perfectly understandable because he's afraid, and annoying because he's Rand's friend and its like a betrayal.

But then there's this one line, after Rand disappears suddenly; Verin suddenly rides up, but before they can tell who it is, Mat lights up, thinking its Rand, fully believeing that his friend would never abandon him. Its like a stab in the heart; on one hand, Mat still thinks of them as friends, but on the other the night before Mat rebuffed that friendship
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#8
The thing I remember most about WoT was that it seemed much more complicated when I first read it, both in material and writing style. But that was years ago, and now I've read Eddison's work which say what you will kkind of trumps most things in terms of prose.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#9
I think I've figured out another reason that I'm more forgiving towards Nyneave than Egwene.

For all of Nyneave's haughtyness, almost as much time is spent beating her down.

The man she loves rebuffs her, Moraine verbally bitch slaps her, as well as most other Aes Sedai, and chapter 18 has Suian force feed her some vile substance for the sole purpose of pissing her off. Reading how Nyneave throws the ASeat against a wall is actually satisfying.

I think its because now she's facing people above her, her stubborness has an odd charm to it.

Lanfear, (or Selene), I can't tell if she's trying to use some subtle compulsion, or she really is that beautiful. The fact that she apparently deaged her self for the purpose of manipulating Rand makes me think its not just her natural charm.

Also, dat Sa'angreal. The big one. Knowing what it is makes that scene where Rand almost uses it entirely by accident fucking terrifying. Lanfear practically wets herself, with good reason.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#10
Belgarion213 said:
The thing I remember most about WoT was that it seemed much more complicated when I first read it, both in material and writing style. But that was years ago, and now I've read Eddison's work which say what you will kkind of trumps most things in terms of prose.
That's because I would say it's pretty effective in building its world. Instead of giving you a massive infodump, Eye of the World does a pretty good job of weaving things in so at the beginning of the book you have no idea what the hell an Aes Sedai is or what channeling is besides magic and so on, but by the end you do.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#11
seitora said:
Belgarion213 said:
The thing I remember most about WoT was that it seemed much more complicated when I first read it, both in material and writing style. But that was years ago, and now I've read Eddison's work which say what you will kkind of trumps most things in terms of prose.
That's because I would say it's pretty effective in building its world. Instead of giving you a massive infodump, Eye of the World does a pretty good job of weaving things in so at the beginning of the book you have no idea what the hell an Aes Sedai is or what channeling is besides magic and so on, but by the end you do.
That's not entirely true.

At the end of Eye, you only have the bare basics, and even those are sketchy.

Thing I know are only in the first book.

There are two halves, male and female.

There are 5 types - Air, Fire, Earth, Water and Spirit. Women are generally better with Air and Water, and men Fire and Earth. Spirit is gender neutral. (mentioned once, implied once, both early on)

There are alot of uses, from healing to causing earthquakes. You can also use tools to boost your capablities.

You are not bound by how much you can use, but rather how much you can safely use. You do not generate it, only tap into like a power source.

Sure, you know the bare basics, but you don't really get the meat of it until later on.


Nyneave's struggles continue to make me like her. Those trials were brutal.

Oh, and her bitch slapping the shade of Aginor was epic. It's great foreshadowing of just how strong she'll become. In the Top 5, IIRC. Maybe even Top 3.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#12
"She(Min) said I(Elayne) would have to share my husband with three other women... She just laughs and says it was never her idea of how to run things either."

That magnificent bastard!
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#13
That just proves my point further. Even by the end of the first book you still don't have a strong hang of what's going on. Given that a lot of POVs are from the Two Rivers folk (I have no idea how many Thom, Moiraine and Lan have in EotW) you're probably just as lost still as they are :D
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#14
seitora said:
That just proves my point further. Even by the end of the first book you still don't have a strong hang of what's going on. Given that a lot of POVs are from the Two Rivers folk (I have no idea how many Thom, Moiraine and Lan have in EotW) you're probably just as lost still as they are :D
None. Nyneave (3 or 4 at most), Perrin (6 or 7 I think) and Rand (the rest) are the only ones that have POV chapters. Well, Moraine also gets like a page at the very end.

GH expands it; Rand, Moraine, Nyneave, Egwene and Perrin have all had POV chapters. Thom has had a few pages too.

Of the original group, only Lan, Lolial and Mat are lacking POV chapters, and of them Mat is the most prominant character.

Speaking of which, earlier it was revealed Aes Sedai (or the Amyrial Seat at least) betrayed Mantheren. Considering Mat has the strongest of the Old Blood, its very possible that his hatred of Aes Sedai stems from that.

Just something to think about.
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#15
Old Blood never made sense to me. Everyone in the world should be affected by it. Or, if it's just a matter of having all of your ancestors be from the same political/ethnic/racial group why don't the Aiel experience it?
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#16
grant said:
Old Blood never made sense to me. Everyone in the world should be affected by it. Or, if it's just a matter of having all of your ancestors be from the same political/ethnic/racial group why don't the Aiel experience it?
Probably because the Aiel out number them 100 to 1. And Two Rivers, unlike pretty much everywhere else, is an untapped resource. Two thousand years of those people have stayed there, few leaving, few entering, and all the while the powerful blood of Mantheren stays undiluted, while the rest of the world intermingles and those who are "special" are either killed, studied or made Aes Sedai.

Anyway, I'be always thought of Old Blood as a kind of magic thing. Best not to look into it too much.

And Holy Shit, a Lord of Cairhien just compared Rand to both an Aiel man and a member of the Andor Royal Family. Burn me, Robert Jordan was one devious bastard.

And sex offers to Rand, ones that went completely over my innocent 13 year old head.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#17
Did, did Thom just kill the King of Cairhein?

When we last see him he's furious that they killed his girlfriend/student, and saying he's going to kill the King. Riot's are breaking out, but he's moving with a purpose. Next time we hear of Cairhein, there's a war of succession going on because someone killed the King.

The multitude of possiblities sequence was interesting; both what we were shown (Rand always feeling as though something was wrong - that he was meant for something more than his current life) and what we were not; Perrin is implied to have been a Wolfbrother in every life, and Mat feeling guilty about betraying Rand. Even for all his fear, he still considers Rand a friend.

Its a nice touch.


And then we are back to Egwene, and she's worried about Rand, and thanks to a Red Aes Sedai bringing news the three boys are in danger, she agrees to go help him. Nyneave doesn't trust the Red, but Egwene convinces her, and her boys are in danger after all.

Then Min and Elayne come in; Min's looking for an escape (probably a lie of some sort, but I couldn't say how) and Elayne looking for adventure <_< . Yes, adventure she says.
 

Watashiwa

Administrator
Staff member
#18
grant said:
Old Blood never made sense to me. Everyone in the world should be affected by it. Or, if it's just a matter of having all of your ancestors be from the same political/ethnic/racial group why don't the Aiel experience it?
Staying in one place for years, generations of family being born, living and dying in the same place, the massive bloodletting the people of Mantheren suffered in the Trolloc Wars and how so few people come into and leave Two Rivers means that the people have a bond with their land. It's theirs in a way that no one but an Aielman or a Borderlander of ten generations could understand. Robert Jordan loves the idea of the king and the land being one, like in the Grail stories. (By the way: Holy Grail-->San Gral-->sa'angreal) It always struck me a bit like "blood purity", but the idea of the old blood is that there's so much of the history of a place soaked into someone that they have a kind of genetic memory.

Yes, adventure she says.
Elayne is the worst of the idiots. Just wait until you read her antics later on; even Brandon Sanderson struggles to keep her alive.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#19
Holy Grail can be translated as San Graal, but a more accurate translation would be 'san grÚal', which is far closer still to sa'angreal.

And I can't recall a single thing about Elayne since she was such a bloody useless character (even Egwene eventually gets an exciting character arc, Elayne is bloody boring throughout the whole series outside of Book 3 and early Book 4), but I believe that in one of the last few books she realises she has immunity to death until her children are born because of Min's viewings and Min's viewings are never wrong and uses that to traipse about
 

grant

Well-Known Member
#20
Which goes to show that she is very, very wrong genre savvy. Just because she's going to give birth to the children doesn't mean she's not going to be captured (how many times is it now?), get someone else killed saving her and/or die in childbirth.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#21
This really is getting to my absolute late end knowledge of he series, but I remember when I first read those scenes at 14-15 years old, I was thinking the exact same things: Just because you have prophecy pretection, doesn't mean those around you do.

Thinking on it now, its even stupider. because other characters, like Rand, have that same kind of protection, and they know enough to continue fearing for their lives.

How did Verin put it in GH; "The shadow lies across the pattern now, and who can say how that could affect it."




Unfortunately for NEE (the girls) I went to bed shortly after I read that last chapter where they agreed to go; this gave me a chance to think on it. Not good for them.

The danger the boys are in is from Shayol Ghul, and they are being hunted as they once were; this according to Liandrin, a Red who they know has been sniffing after the 3 boys for months. They seem to have forgotten that the last time they saw the boys, it was with 20 soldiers, chasing after Shadowspawn.

I can't fault them for wanting to help the boys; I can fault them for not thinking this shit through a bit first.
 

Watashiwa

Administrator
Staff member
#22
Elayne's problem later on is that she's seen RPM get into shit that no farmboy or even trained Aes Sedai and Warder pair would even think about trying and coming out like kings. Add Min's viewing, an inclination to wanting to have hands-on adventure and the fact that she's one of the strongest power users in millenia and you have someone who should know better acting like a feckless fool.

NEE at the start of the series are in over their heads, thinking that their strength in the Power makes them more or less invincible. Remember that they spent months in the Tower being told that they were amazing and would do great things by women who were amazing and did great things.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#23
That is certainly true. Good points. But at the same time, those great women tried to beat humility into those 3 heads. It didn't take half as much as they wanted, but you'd think that they'd take some of it in.




In my re-read, we are now at Falme, Egwene is now a damane, and is being trained like a pet. But before I got into that, I would like to go back a little to something Egwene thinks to herself.

"Rand, you woolheaded idiot, why can't you just once get yourself into some kind of trouble that doesn't force me to act like the heroine in a story?"



When have you ever, ever been useful? Ever?

Vs Trollocs. Useless. Vs Forsaken. Useless Vs Aes Sedai. Virtually Useless.

Right now she barely counts as emotional support for Rand. The only times hes thought of her are when he felt gulity for being attracted to Selene, when he was remembering the past and how he first gor psudo-engaged to her; other than that, not really, except maybe when he's thinking of home in a more general sense.

Heroine? You're not even the love interest in this story anymore. In about 2 chapters your going to be relegated to damsal in distress.


Sigh...

All that said, I do feel as though I've been abit harsh on her, even as I've made excuses for Mat, and I don't think that is fair. So I'll start talking about her better times.

She knocked a raven out of the air quicker than Perrin.

Her plan to hide Rand from the Aes Sedai in the womens quarters was really quite good, even if it failed.

She still cares for Rand even while somewhat afraid of him; and this is a plus in my book. If she didn't fear at least a little, I'd be calling her an idiot.

And can someone remind me. Can Black Ajah memebers lie?
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#24
Yes they can. Use of the Oath Rod can remove oaths as well, though I don't think that plot point is brought up till much later on in the series. (There is also the fact that the oath rods were used like prison sentences in the Age of Legends, they were basically what made you do your service to the community if you broke a law, if you were a chaneler that is, though that part is brought up in the Guide)

Speaking of Egwene/Elaine one thing I remember is the girls honestly think they are at or above Rand in strength in the One Power. I remember one scene where they get him good and mad and he does twelve things at once with the power, and Egwene comments on it. Apparently its like three times more difficult to do two things at once, and the strength to do twelve like Rand has Egwene/Elaine shaking in their boots, since they are apparently very impressive with 4 things done at once or something. If your walking around thinking your as powerful as the Dragon Reborn, who is, even in legends said to be the strongest Channeler of the Age of Legends, a age of legendary powerful chanelers, it kind of gives some thought to their confidence...even if they are idiots for relying on that and thinking it in the first place.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#25
Speaking of Egwene/Elaine one thing I remember is the girls honestly think they are at or above Rand in strength in the One Power.
That makes me laugh inspite of myself. Of female channelers, only Lanfear, Nyneave and that one old woman who gets mentioned in passing as being stronger than Nyneave come close to Rand. And even then I think there is a marginal difference.


Yes they can. Use of the Oath Rod can remove oaths as well, though I don't think that plot point is brought up till much later on in the series. (There is also the fact that the oath rods were used like prison sentences in the Age of Legends, they were basically what made you do your service to the community if you broke a law, if you were a chaneler that is, though that part is brought up in the Guide)
Was that bit about them being prison sentences confirmed in the Guide? I've read it, but don't remember that. Well, that was always my theory on what the Oath Rod was for anyway.

I only ask because I'm pretty sure Liandrin is Black, and I'm trying to pick up if she lied lied, or was just up to the old trick of Aes Sedai lying.
 
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