The White Devil of the Moon Chapter 12

[Comartemis]

I don't care overmuch about what kind of bad end results from Chibi-Usa preventing Nanoha from meeting Fate because I want that whole sequence deleted altogether.

You... want?

Whether a scene is deleted or not is the author's prerogative, not yours.

Whichever criticisms you have for the story(and I DO agree with all of them), the overall tone of your complaints only ensure your opinions won't get heeded. Unless that was your intention?

No, I don't expect him to do anything regardless of what I say. Few authors are willing to rewrite an entire story on one reader's say-so, and rewriting the story is what it'll take to fix it. Given that bissek hasn't addressed a single one of my points and keeps trying to change the subject or redirect me to dead threads it's already clear to me that he thinks the story is perfectly fine the way it is and won't change it for anything.

But yes, I "want" this story torn down to the foundations and built back up again as something that's not so mediocre. Doesn't mean I expect to get it.

 

[midorigreen]

I don't care overmuch about what kind of bad end results from Chibi-Usa preventing Nanoha from meeting Fate because I want that whole sequence deleted altogether.

You... want?

Whether a scene is deleted or not is the author's prerogative, not yours.

Whichever criticisms you have for the story(and I DO agree with all of them), the overall tone of your complaints only ensure your opinions won't get heeded. Unless that was your intention?

No, I don't expect him to do anything regardless of what I say. Few authors are willing to rewrite an entire story on one reader's say-so, and rewriting the story is what it'll take to fix it. Given that bissek hasn't addressed a single one of my points and keeps trying to change the subject or redirect me to dead threads it's already clear to me that he thinks the story is perfectly fine the way it is and won't change it for anything.

But yes, I "want" this story torn down to the foundations and built back up again as something that's not so mediocre. Doesn't mean I expect to get it.

If you don't expect to get a rewrite then why are you trying so hard over one story thats as you say mediocre.

 

[AbyssalDaemon]

I don't care overmuch about what kind of bad end results from Chibi-Usa preventing Nanoha from meeting Fate because I want that whole sequence deleted altogether.

You... want?

Whether a scene is deleted or not is the author's prerogative, not yours.

Whichever criticisms you have for the story(and I DO agree with all of them), the overall tone of your complaints only ensure your opinions won't get heeded. Unless that was your intention?

No, I don't expect him to do anything regardless of what I say. Few authors are willing to rewrite an entire story on one reader's say-so, and rewriting the story is what it'll take to fix it. Given that bissek hasn't addressed a single one of my points and keeps trying to change the subject or redirect me to dead threads it's already clear to me that he thinks the story is perfectly fine the way it is and won't change it for anything.

But yes, I "want" this story torn down to the foundations and built back up again as something that's not so mediocre. Doesn't mean I expect to get it.

If you don't expect to get a rewrite then why are you trying so hard over one story thats as you say mediocre.

Because its that bad? The entire story reads like fanon-senshi bashing given how pretty much none of the Sailor Moon characters that we met have been anywhere close to their canon characters, not to mention the usual general stupidity, cherry-picking from the anime and manga, and idea that Senshi are going to suddenly attack crossover characters the second that they meet that you so often see in Fanon-SM.

The author notes might excuse some of that had bissek bothered to show the things that he talked about in the earlier chapters but for the majority of the entire story there's been little resemblance to the actual SM-verse cast, anime or manga, in this story. Made worse by the fact that it largely seems done so that Nanoha cross can be wanked and made to look good. :no:

Which pretty much ruins the entire crossover if you need to do such a thing. Both casts should be able to stand on their own, and have their own good and bad points.

 

[Oseng]

I don't usually post on this forum, having signed up to read the fics, but I've been wanting to review this story for a while. Figured I might as well since this discussion has come up again. Sorry if I rambled a bit - I just spat this out after reading through the most recent chapter.

This story has a great deal of potential and I still read the new chapters, but to become a better or potentially great story there are some areas that need to be kind of worked at and perhaps re-written. There are a number of reason for this, of which I have tried constructively list a few.

A) First of all, there are a number of issues with characterization such as with the Senshi and Luna. It has not been as much of a problem in the last few chapters but this was one of the worst problems in the early parts of the fic. Frankly, the Senshi/Luna were really handed idiot balls in those first few chapters. I can certainly see them reacting with suspicion, concern, extreme wariness etc regarding Fate and the others but the way they reacted was ..... over the top and simply doesn't fit or really work. This is primarily why I think that the early, beginning, chapters could do with a re-write.

B: I actually don't have a problem with the power level you have "assigned" the Senshi as sometimes an author needs to adjust a settings power level etc for a crossover to work. I'm more interested in plot over mechanics. But, you need to work on showing said power level as well as telling. If you state in the fic that they are this powerful then you need to try and show or display them as that powerful in the action scenes.

Going by what the characters say in the story and how you are portraying the TSAB mage rank chart the Senshi are supposed to be pretty powerful. But in the action scenes they come across as quite weak - especially when dealing with the Precia drone. There is kind of a jarring disconnect between what you (the author) and the characters in the story are saying compared to what we (the readers) see in the action scene. The two simply do not match up and you need to work on matching what the characters tell us to what we "see" in the action and other scenes.

To go back to characterization a moment, you have the same Show and Tell problem with the Senshi. You say that they are at least semi-competent, blooded, warriors who have been fighting for a year+ but that is not really shown in the fic itself.

C) Otherwise, I would just suggest that when you read back over a chapter that you ask yourself "Am I treating both sides relatively equally? Am I showing respect to both setting involved in the crossover?" At the moment while you are doing a good job with the Nanoha side of things, you don't seem to be handling the Sailor Moon setting very well in comparison.

D) The whole thing with the TSAB arresting etc the Senshi is actually relatively minor but it is somewhat out of character for the organization. Rather then suggesting a re-write of that I would simply suggest that Hayate, Lindy, etc just get called on the rug by the TSAB later on for over-stepping their jurisdiction and authority. You could probably argue that the whole thing with the Senshi and the Silver Millennium falls under the Lost Logia or Inter-Dimensional threat section enough for them to canonly intervene but it kind of skirts the edge. Also, the Senshi are just too passively accepting of this.

So, over all I would say that while the story has some good potential and the most recent chapters are much better it does need some work. One thing that you really need to work on is matching what the characters say to what happens in other scenes, aka tell AND show.

 

[zeebee1]

Saying you rarely post is a bit of an understatement. And as for power it's all about potential. The senshi don't increase in power from season to season. They learn, through experience, how to access more of their power in slightly different ways.

 

[Comartemis]

Saying you rarely post is a bit of an understatement. And as for power it's all about potential. The senshi don't increase in power from season to season. They learn, through experience, how to access more of their power in slightly different ways.

False. Their old attacks consistently fail to work against new enemies while their new attacks succeed. Said attacks are usually accompanied by a new transformation device, and on one occasion whole new outfits for the Super forms. That's a pretty clear indication of ongoing power boosts, given that most of the Senshi's spells are your basic lightning bolts/fireballs/laser beams/etc. Meanwhile they don't use any new tactics in subsequent seasons and in fact abandon old powers with significant tactical applications. How often did Mercury use Shabon Spray or Shabon Spray Freezing after the first/midway through the second season? Maybe once or twice in a few hundred episodes.

 

[zeebee1]

Seeing as she was the only one who could see anything in that mess it wasn't much of an advantage. Besides, the point of this is to give them proper training which includes tactics.

Also, the new outfits tended to come from their own power. It wasn't a power up from some special item or training. It was experience made manifest. There were exceptions, but the weapons came pretty late in the series.

 

[Comartemis]

I like how you'd rather ignore me than acknowledge that something's wrong with your fic, bissek. It says wonderful things about the sort of author you are that you can't take any kind of criticism.

 

[bissek]

And I appreciate how you keep going out of your way to necro threads to state how much you hate how a story has turned out and demand that the author rewrite three quarters of it - which you freely admitted three weeks ago wasn't going to happen on your say-so alone.

 

[Comartemis]

And I appreciate how you keep going out of your way to necro threads to state how much you hate how a story has turned out and demand that the author rewrite three quarters of it - which you freely admitted three weeks ago wasn't going to happen on your say-so alone.

Just making sure you know that you're a sub-par author, that's all. You never did acknowledge that there was anything wrong with the way you keep dragging the Senshi through the dirt just to make the Nanoha characters look better, so I can only assume that you're totally cool with having written a tremendously shitty bashfic. Glad that we've cleared that up.

 

[bissek]

You don't like it. Other people do. I've seen stories that other people praise that I consider to be absolutely awful (Shinji and Warhammer40K comes to mind) too. To each his own. I don't go out of my way to slam the authors and demand that they rewrite everything they produced in the past year.

Don't like, don't read.

 

[Comartemis]

You don't like it. Other people do.

"Other people" like things written by PerfectLionheart too, this is not a relevant statement when discussing the quality of a fic. The fact remains: the Senshi have been your personal punching bags since the start of the fic. You portray them as being immensely inferior to the Nanoha characters in every respect. You treat them like idiots and go out of your way to make them wrong about everything while glorifying the awesomeness of the Nanoha characters to the point where even the non-magicals like Miyuki can do the Senshi's job better than them.

At no point have you shown anything resembling respect for Sailor Moon or its characters. Without respect, regardless of who likes or does not like your fic, you will never be able to write anything worth the bytes it's coded on.

Don't like, don't read.

Too bad. I read, I liked, I even recommended you on TV Tropes. Then everything went to shit because I assumed somehow that you'd go back and revise the bits I didn't like when I first read the thing. Instead everything got worse and worse because I didn't speak up and call you out for doing it wrong. I don't expect you to rewrite the whole story, though I'd be rather thrilled if you did. But I do expect you to acknowledge your mistakes and endeavor to avoid them in the future. That you refuse to admit that you have made mistakes -- that you think you are somehow justified in how you've been treating the Senshi -- is what pisses me off to no end.

 

[Elvarein]

You don't like it. Other people do.

"Other people" like things written by PerfectLionheart too, this is not a relevant statement when discussing the quality of a fic. The fact remains: the Senshi have been your personal punching bags since the start of the fic. You portray them as being immensely inferior to the Nanoha characters in every respect. You treat them like idiots and go out of your way to make them wrong about everything while glorifying the awesomeness of the Nanoha characters to the point where even the non-magicals like Miyuki can do the Senshi's job better than them.

At no point have you shown anything resembling respect for Sailor Moon or its characters. Without respect, regardless of who likes or does not like your fic, you will never be able to write anything worth the bytes it's coded on.

Don't like, don't read.

Too bad. I read, I liked, I even recommended you on TV Tropes. Then everything went to shit because I assumed somehow that you'd go back and revise the bits I didn't like when I first read the thing. Instead everything got worse and worse because I didn't speak up and call you out for doing it wrong. I don't expect you to rewrite the whole story, though I'd be rather thrilled if you did. But I do expect you to acknowledge your mistakes and endeavor to avoid them in the future. That you refuse to admit that you have made mistakes -- that you think you are somehow justified in how you've been treating the Senshi -- is what pisses me off to no end.

Comartemis, the thing is this is Bissek's story, and in the end it is his choice on what to do with it. You have already clearly stated your point a few times and as it stands, all you are doing here is devolving to the level of whining and insulting other people in your attempt to hurt.

Dude, you are taking this too personally, why are you so offended by someone whose opinion to you does not matter? You are wasting your own time and emotions and all you are achieving is getting everyone and especially yourself annoyed.

Bissek, I have to say that while I do not entirely agree with the direction you are taking the story, it is still interesting and exciting itself to capture my attention. Variety after all, is the spice of life.

 

[Comartemis]

Comartemis, the thing is this is Bissek's story, and in the end it is his choice on what to do with it. You have already clearly stated your point, a few times and as it stands, all you are doing here is devolving to the level of whining and insulting other people in your attempt to hurt.

Did you even read my fucking post? I don't care what he does with the rest of the fic, I'm not reading it any more unless he rewrites the whole thing, which he won't. I want him to acknowledge that he's treating the Sailor Moon characters like shit just to make the Nanoha characters look good, and that THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE if his goal is to write a crossover that's worth reading. Not just for Sailor Moon, but for any crossover fanfic. If he doesn't learn that lesson and acknowledge that he fucked up, he'll just go right on writing awful shit like this.

Again, the fic itself does not offend me nearly so much as bissek's refusal to admit that he screwed up. This bugs the crap out of me because he is otherwise a decent author; far from the best, but definitely readable. But until he takes his fingers out of his ears and listens to people trying to point out his mistakes he'll continue to suck monkey balls at writing crossovers.

Dude, you are taking this too personally, why are you so offended by someone whose opinion to you does not matter? You are wasting your own time and emotions and all you are achieving is getting everyone and especially yourself annoyed.

I have a monthly quota of griefing at people to fill.

 

[bissek]

By which you are insisting that your opinion overrides the personal opinion of every other person who has read the story.

Coma, please write this 50 times on the nearest blackboard.

I am A critic, not the God of Critics.

 

[Wilder]

Gonna have to agree with Bissek, it's just a story he's writing in his free time and it 's, if nothing else, entertaining at least. I've never cared much for canon-rape as long as good tale is gotten out of it.

Also, Comartemis, if you have such a strong opinion on the matter, why not I dunno, either just ignore the fic since it's not going how you like it to, or try your hand at writing this type of cross the way YOU like it?

 

[Comartemis]

By which you are insisting that your opinion overrides the personal opinion of every other person who has read the story.

My opinion as you put it is indisputable objective fact which has been proven time and time again by thousands of curbstomp crossovers. What you've written is no different from all the thousands of Ranma 1/2 crossovers where Ranma beats on the Senshi because the author made them come and attack him to show how much cooler he is than a bunch of girls in seifuku. This is a recipe for instant failure and you're following it by the book.

And there you go again, trying to marginalize my criticism by claiming I'm the only one who doesn't like your fic. Wake up and smell the coffee bissek, you are not well-liked beyond your handful of sycophants, most of whom have probably never watched an episode of Sailor Moon in their lives. In this thread alone Seiya and AbyssalDaemon have also criticized you for these same failings and every time I've seen this fic get mentioned in recommendation threads on SpaceBattles it gets shouted down by other people who hate it for these same reasons.

Pull your goddamned head out of the sand and listen when people are trying to help you suck less.

Also, Comartemis, if you have such a strong opinion on the matter, why not I dunno, either just ignore the fic since it's not going how you like it to, or try your hand at writing this type of cross the way YOU like it?

In point of fact, I am writing something better. Or rather I'm contributing to a group effort to write something better. Here, have a snippet of work from the Battle Fantasia Project.

*****
Sharp Dressed Spiny!
*****

"Crown games center, huh?" Chrono mused as he slipped into the place - in civilian clothes, to be polite.

'Amy', He asked telepathically as half of his backup gave a slight, wide-eyed nod - you'd think she'd never seen the inside of a place like this, even though he knew she had, 'is it me or is this place a little odd?'

'Keep your eyes open. There's active magical scans going on all over the place.' Amy said. 'Durandal, Levantine and Bardiche are giving me -excellent- summaries.'

"Chrono, do you want something?" Fate asked him as they waited, looking over the confectionery and icecream parlor part of the cafe with slight longing.

"I recommend the ice-cream - my wife swears by it - but I'd prefer you avoided the Parfait. It appears to be bad luck in our line of work." Tuxedo Kamen advised from suddenly being there, seated casually on one of the cafe chairs. "Ladies. Officer Harlaown. You wished to interrogate me?"

All three of the visitors - Signum had invited herself along for the ride - stiffened at his sudden presence.

'Harlaown!' Signum's mental voice hissed as the man gestured towards chairs - and nobody else in the cafe noticed him being Tuxedo Kamen.

The three of them definitely noticed his magical power, for the moment not hidden at all - and vastly greater than Chrono had expected it to be.

'I know! He wasn't like this before!' Chrono sent back, but squared his shoulders to head over and pull up a chair.

'Amy?' he asked and heard the sounds of distant freaking out on the other end of the telepathic transmission to where Amy was observing from the house.

'Be careful. He's wearing a disguise effect so strong he could look just like he does now - and when he took it off you wouldn't recognize him. I've never seen anything like it.' Amy sent back. 'and - holy shit! How was he hiding that much power?'

"We'll take the ice-cream - Signum?" Chrono asked politely to cover the exchange of thoughts and got a frosty, "Nothing for me." From the pink haired knight.

The way she was looming she really would prefer to stay standing -

"And we had a few questions about...local events and customs." Chono added diplomatically. "Not wanting to cause trouble."

And then Tuxedo Kamen's magical signature winked out. Completely gone as if it hadn't been there at all, and the three of them had to stifle indrawn breaths. Most disguise magic took at least a few moments to kick in - to be able to hide that much, that quickly was very impressive.

'One, he definitely did that deliberately.' Chrono mentally told them all. 'Two - How is he hiding that much power? It's like the whole area is helping him - never mind, tell me later.'

"Fair enough." The local mage said. "I have some questions of my own about your intentions. Would you mind explaining those? As a matter of curiosity."

"When we first came here it was in response to an incident with artifacts from a precursor to our civilization." Chrono said, "We've known of this world's existence for a long time, but previous visits had indicated that there was no significant magical society, so mainly we've had no reasons to come here until a dimensional criminal lost some dangerous artifacts."

"Ah." Tuxedo Kamen said. "Extremely dangerous artifacts, I presume?"

"Their use is proscribed for a reason." Chrono agreed. "Even one can potentially destroy a world. There were some..complications -"

Fate didn't /quite/ stiffen at being described as a complication, but Chrono knew he'd be paying for the phrasing anyway.

Especially since Tuxedo Kamen had noticed, he was somehow sure.

"-Which wound up involving a local mage-potential. She turned out to be instrumental to solving the incident, and extremely talented." Chrono shrugged. "Since to our knowledge she was the only mage potential in this direction we had been keeping an eye on her."

No need to go into the /second/ incident just now. Or too much description of Nanoha - not in this meeting.

"Then this - incident, which indicates that our previous estimate the local mage population is probably quite low. What we don't know is why they hide so well that our best detection equipment thinks they may be jello." The man raised an eyebrow and Chrono grit his teeth at letting that last bit of description slip in.

"That is an...interesting story. And question." Tuxedo Kamen said. "I haven't all of the answers you may want - my own estimate of the local magic using population has until recently been quite low. As you say, however, I must now assume otherwise...and I do have one or two ideas as to why it may be."

"What might that be?" Chrono carefully didn't grit out and got a slight tip of the head from where Tuxedo Kamen was drumming fingers on the top of the hat he had sat on the table.

"According to the ..origin of my magical education, At a certain point in this world's history," Kamen said, "There was a war between two magic using civilizations which obliterated the larger of them, and decimated the smaller. In the process, the leaders of both societies were wiped out completely. Those who survived were subject to the depredations of ..things..used by the smaller power to assault the larger. Left over monstrosities. I suspect now, that it was at that time that any magic using remnants of the first kingdoms must have gone...thoroughly underground. And the tradition of hiding remains."

"I see." Chrono said. "And those magic using civilizations have something to do with you?"

"Certainly." Tuxedo Kamen said simply. "If that smaller kingdom had not been betrayed into attacking the Silver Millennium and destroyed, I would be this world's king."

'Chrono,' Amy said faintly over their telepathic link, 'the reason it looks like the whole world is helping him hide his magic is because /it is/.'

This is how you show respect to all series in a crossover setting. It's less obvious here than elsewhere because Endymion has the Bureau at a disadvantage, but the two sides are well-balanced and have their own unique roles in the story; the Senshi have 10-15 years of experience under their belts and rank among the most badass MGs in the setting while the bureau has the giant orbital cruiser, massive logistics, knowledge of ancient tech that can be applied to Silver Millennium artifacts and its own team of super-powerful mages.

 

[Wilder]

I didn't mean to come across as confrontational, just throwing in my opinion on the matter.

And you're working on the Battle Fantasia project?, hadn't noticed, there are a lotta people working on that, thought about contributing a little to it myself.

Also I apologise if I come across a bit rude, but I do think we should let this conversation die out since we ARE kinda necroing a thread. Best not to pointlessly clutter things up.

 

[Comartemis]

I didn't mean to come across as confrontational, just throwing in my opinion on the matter.

And you're working on the Battle Fantasia project?, hadn't noticed, there are a lotta people working on that, thought about contributing a little to it myself.

Not nearly so much as Gamlain and AngryDesu are, but I've written a few well-recieved snippets. My favorite is the one where Quattro tries to bombard Earth from several dimensions away with the Saint's Cradle and gets counter-sniped by Goddess Madoka.

Also I apologise if I come across a bit rude, but I do think we should let this conversation die out since we ARE kinda necroing a thread. Best not to pointlessly clutter things up.

It's not a necro if you have something to contribute. I'm contributing constructive criticism which bissek refuses to take until I ram it down his throat.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

bissek doesn't need your "advice". The fic is perfectly fine. You and the other people complaining have, like everyone else, not yet seen whatever ending bissek has planned. I'm fairly certain the climax of the story will vindicate the Senshi in the end, and jumping around screaming at the author because the story isn't going the way you want it to isn't going to solve anything.

You aren't some Lone Ranger of Criticism, Comartemis. Indeed, your "constructive criticism" is far less constructive than it is "waaah things aren't going my way". Marching at the behest of Spacebattles' troll population does you no favors either. Either cool your jets, be polite, and wait until bissek's final plot twists are unveiled before making any final decisions on how he's written the story or SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GET OUT OF THESE THREADS.

 

[Comartemis]

Your approval is a greater mark against this series than any complaint I could ever raise against it, Gafgar. Go back to your rape fantasies and your Hitler shipping, I can tear this fic's failings apart just fine without your help.

 

[Deleted member 5249]

The fic is perfectly fine.

This fic is just like millions of R 1/2/SM xovers actually. So Lolno.

I'm fairly certain the climax of the story will vindicate the Senshi in the end, and jumping around screaming at the author because the story isn't going the way you want it to isn't going to solve anything.

Nothing can vindicate the OOCness of the senshi and Luna. They were jobbed and had idiot balls taped to them. They had everything about them cherry picked between manga/anime so everything could make them seem worse.

Like Comartemis said it's pretty bad too anyone who even mildly likes Sailor Moon to see their characters treated like this. Damn near painful actually.

 

[Wilder]

Is it really that annoying for SM fans? I've never read the Sailor Moon manga or anything (Nanoha's setting just kinda appeals to me more and Sailor Moon just never really interested me), so I honestly can't say anything about their characterisation or anything.

I mostly just read this because it's at least written decently (barring said characterisations) and although updates are slow they do happen.

Unrelatedly, but delicious Lilithmon, do want.

 

[Deleted member 5249]

Is it really that annoying for SM fans? I've never read the Sailor Moon manga or anything (Nanoha's setting just kinda appeals to me more and Sailor Moon just never really interested me), so I honestly can't say anything about their characterisation or anything.

I mostly just read this because it's at least written decently (barring said characterisations) and although updates are slow they do happen.

Unrelatedly, but delicious Lilithmon, do want.

For a SM fan this is just another sucky R 1/2 crossover without the ranma.

This bothers me as a fan of both the manga/anime because it's neither. These aren't the characters from either version. They are a twisted parody who have idiot balls attached. This is not a SMxover at all. This something else. I honestly don't even know why it's in this section when the characters are getting treated liked this.

Sometimes combining universes is okay. The_Ero-Sennin combined details from both in some Ultimateverse fic he created in BDSM yet it was clearly neither. He played with characterizations but he made them fun and at least you were able to see he genuinely liked the characters and respected the source material.

What Bissek did isn't okay. All he did in was cherrypick the worst from both and add a buttload of Fanon characterization to make Nanoha seem better.

 

[Comartemis]

Is it really that annoying for SM fans? I've never read the Sailor Moon manga or anything (Nanoha's setting just kinda appeals to me more and Sailor Moon just never really interested me), so I honestly can't say anything about their characterisation or anything.

Yes. Very very yes.

Think about what you've just asked, Wilder. Would you be annoyed if characters from series X came into Nanoha and ground their faces into the dirt just to show off how cool they are? It is no less annoying for Sailor Moon fans than it would be for Nanoha fans if their situations were reversed. Hell, most Nanoha fans know what this feels like already (coughcoughHUCKBEINcoughcough).

Incidentally thank you for proving my point Wilder. The people who like this fic are the people who don't like Sailor Moon and don't care how the characters are treated so long as the Nanoha characters get to be awesome even at their expense. No decent crossover forces one side to suck to make the other side look better, they should each be able to stand on their own without requiring that one side train the other to help them suck less.