The White Devil of the Moon Chapter 5

midorigreen

Well-Known Member
#76
This is the reason why I don't like crossovers with sailor moon. the series is just so unbalanced that any other series compared with it just can't compete unless its equally haux like tengen toppa gurren lagann or they tone down the senshi's power levels. when this happens fans of the series start complaining forgetting that it's all just fiction and are unable to appreciate the story for what it is, a really good story.
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#77
I wouldn't have complained about power levels if this was a crossover with the anime. Not at all. But this isn't anime. He's thrown out every anime aspect away from the Dark Kingdom's capabilities, Beryl's temperment, Metallia, The Rainbow Crystals and so on.

He's Consistently mentioned Manga only details. Anime-Minako worked in London, but this story referenced Danburite someone only Manga-Minako knew in Japan, the Training Video Game, how they got their transformation items/Disguise Pen.

This is mangaverse in all but name now and he's depowering the senshi to make Nanoha look good. That's why I'm annoyed.
 

AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#78
Actually the original complaints had less to do about power levels and a lot more on how the character's just aren't acting anything like themselves and are instead closer to their damn fanon versions to me, which was one my problems. Bissek is a generally good author but he's sorta speeding through to get to where ever it is that he's trying to get too, and it has a negative effect for the SM aspect of it.

And yeah he's made some comments about things that have happened or why the Senshi and such are acting like they are, but he hasn't done the best job of showing it in-story, and that has a rather major effect on how the characters are coming across in the story.
 

Robo Jesus

Well-Known Member
#79
midorigreen said:
This is the reason why I don't like crossovers with sailor moon. the series is just so unbalanced that any other series compared with it just can't compete unless its equally haux like tengen toppa gurren lagann or they tone down the senshi's power levels. when this happens fans of the series start complaining forgetting that it's all just fiction and are unable to appreciate the story for what it is, a really good story.
Agreed. Dragon Ball esque "HIS POWER LEVELS ARE OVER 9000!" type crap is just unappealing. Hence, LOWERING the Power Levels of the people and things which are described as "breaking the universe apart" or "ripping the dimensions" in settings like this is usually a GOOD thing, as the characters and plot devices go from being Trite and Mary Sueish to something actually interesting.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#80
Robo Jesus said:
midorigreen said:
This is the reason why I don't like crossovers with sailor moon. the series is just so unbalanced that any other series compared with it just can't compete unless its equally haux like tengen toppa gurren lagann or they tone down the senshi's power levels. when this happens fans of the series start complaining forgetting that it's all just fiction and are unable to appreciate the story for what it is, a really good story.
Agreed. Dragon Ball esque "HIS POWER LEVELS ARE OVER 9000!" type crap is just unappealing. Hence, LOWERING the Power Levels of the people and things which are described as "breaking the universe apart" or "ripping the dimensions" in settings like this is usually a GOOD thing, as the characters and plot devices go from being Trite and Mary Sueish to something actually interesting.
But not when it makes them much, much weaker then the other side in the crossover, for no explaind reason. In this story, the Senshi weren't able to take down that one guy in a year and a half, but Nanoha blew him away, despite being on a sickbed.

That's not good. That's Power Creep, Power Seep to the extreme, and all it does is make the Senshi pointlessly weak. I can understand lowering power levels enough to make things interesting, and not a total curbstomp for the Senshi, but tha is not what this is.
 

ecs05norway

Well-Known Member
#81
ecs05norway's rules of crossover fanfic writing

Step 1: Decide if the crossover is going to be a curbstomp or not.
---> 1a: If it is, pick an interpretation of your settings that maximizes the power differences (like, say, the fanon-idiots' "one turbolaser is ten gigatons of firepower per shot" Star Wars vs Babylon 5).
---> 1b: If it isn't, then set the basic assumptions of each series roughly equal. What is a major power in one series is a major power for the other. What is a dangerous threat in one series is a danger for the other.

bissek has clearly opted for path 1b. Good for him.

Nanoha is described as an extremely powerful, skilled, and experienced mage. She's an elite combat instructor. You don't get to be that without being really damned good at what you're teaching, and what she teaches isn't "Magic 101", it's "Ph.D. level Kicking Ass and Taking Names". She is already Mahou Shojou Gundam.

If you're going to invoke her as the primary character focus of the story, then you focus on what she does best, and at this point in her life that's two things.
1) Kick Ass in Magical Combat
2) Teach other people to Kick Ass in Magical Combat.

Part one she's shown she's capable of. Frying Jadeite -is- pretty damn impressive. But this is the girl who, when she was nine years old and had barely started to learn what she was doing, with most of her linker core extracted and suffering from serious wounds, managed the spell to brute-force her way past a dimensional isolation field cast by one of the most powerful magical artifacts in known history.

Part two she also has experience with. She is an Elite Combat Instructor. That means she is one of the best in the business. Who's she going to instruct? Riot Force 6 aren't around yet. And this is a crossover, so the Senshi need a part to play.

Face it, they're one-trick ponies at this point. Each of them has one or two attacks and spams that until the opponent falls down or they do. They have a hell of a lot of potential but right now it's mostly unrealized. So far, they've survived mostly on sheer guts, stubbornness, and more luck than anyone's rightful share. They're losing, and they know it. What do they need? Someone to help them Kick Ass and Take Names.

Oh, look. Here we have an Instructor, and here we have some students. Maybe Nanoha isn't as powerful as a Senshi is capable of being. But right now the Senshi are operating at about 1% of their capacity, and she's the ideal person to turn that 1% into 5%, 10%, 50%.....

This is not a simulation game recreation. This is a story. Every person has their own take on stories, that's part of why we write fanfic.

So, all of you. Shut up and let bissek write.
 

midorigreen

Well-Known Member
#82
Ryuugi said:
Robo Jesus said:
midorigreen said:
This is the reason why I don't like crossovers with sailor moon. the series is just so unbalanced that any other series compared with it just can't compete unless its equally haux like tengen toppa gurren lagann or they tone down the senshi's power levels. when this happens fans of the series start complaining forgetting that it's all just fiction and are unable to appreciate the story for what it is, a really good story.
Agreed. Dragon Ball esque "HIS POWER LEVELS ARE OVER 9000!" type crap is just unappealing. Hence, LOWERING the Power Levels of the people and things which are described as "breaking the universe apart" or "ripping the dimensions" in settings like this is usually a GOOD thing, as the characters and plot devices go from being Trite and Mary Sueish to something actually interesting.
But not when it makes them much, much weaker then the other side in the crossover, for no explaind reason. In this story, the Senshi weren't able to take down that one guy in a year and a half, but Nanoha blew him away, despite being on a sickbed.

That's not good. That's Power Creep, Power Seep to the extreme, and all it does is make the Senshi pointlessly weak. I can understand lowering power levels enough to make things interesting, and not a total curbstomp for the Senshi, but tha is not what this is.
Alright but ultimately there comes a point when you've already made your point half a dozen times and are just pushing it because you want the sailor moon half of this crossover to be shown in a better light by arguing with anyone who will contradict you. Ultimately this is Bissek's story, meaning the characters and premise are his to interpret and describe the way he sees fit. He has already stated he's going to take into account some of your issues about the senshi's power levels in later chapters, so what's your problem unless you want him to rewrite everything he has written so far just to meet your personal preferences.

On another note how do you think the memories of princess serenity's death will affect Nanoha's relationship with the rest of the senshi. Nanoha has an incredible sense of duty and responsibility, and to learn that her previous self shrank from those duties and responsibilities by committing suicide would leave her with a tremendous sense of guilty. I her mind she could have tried to escape and rallied her people to fight back against the youma or died in a suicidal attack against beryl and her forces. By taking her own life Nanoha believes she spat on not only the memories of her protectors and lover but also the people of the silver millennium who look to her and her mother for leadership and guidance.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#83
ecs05norway: But that's just the problem, this is very much not path 1b. Path 1b would make both sides basically equal, and have things come down to strategy and skill.

But that's not what this is. That's not even close to what this is. The Nanoha side is beig shown to be massively better in literally every respect.

Nanoha is also recovering for intense and extreme harm. She is still beig shown to be massively bettethen the Senshi.

Part one: Um, not really. Starlight Breaker works by gathering ambient magical energy; Nanoha's linker core being drained had no effect on the spells power. Now, granted, her being able to keep focus under the pain is impressive, but nothing you wouldn't expect from a manga hero. Also, the fied was not cast using the Book of Darkness.

Part two: Yes, exactly, because the Senshi are being shown as completely useless at this point. Which is kind of the problem, since they have a year and a half of experience by this point.

Only the Senshi have been in a war for a yea and a half and probably have more experience then Nanoha (who's not a ground troop and isn't statined in one place to fight continuously for extend periods). They are surviving against horrible odds, and it should be because of just guts, stubbornness, and luck.

...And Nanoha is recovering from horrible physical and magical trauma and is still shown to be better then all of them put together. See the problem?

Um, no? So why don't you shut up and stop telling people what to do?

midorigreen:

I'm pointing out what I consider flaws and things that make no sense (of which the massive power bias is one of) as wel as arguing my position, and I feel no need to stop just because you don't like it.
 

seras

Well-Known Member
#84
God just drop it all ready, your NOT adding anything worthwhile to the story. Ryuugi I am talking mostly to you.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#85
seras said:
God just drop it all ready, your NOT adding anything worthwhile to the story. Ryuugi I am talking mostly to you.
And neither are you. And yet, you also felt the need to talk (and not even in an attempt to pretend to add something useful). Funny that.

And also, yes, I am adding something; how much it's worth depends on who you ask, but I've added my thoughts and opinions. And since my addition is greater then zero whereas yours is not, that means I'm adding infinitely more then you.

I.e. Shut up. And I'm talking completely to you, seras.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#86
ecs05norway said:
So, all of you. Shut up and let bissek write.
This. Seriously. If you don't like it, read a different fic. The only complaint I have about what ecs05norway said is rather minor and nitpicky:

---> 1a: If it is, pick an interpretation of your settings that maximizes the power differences (like, say, the fanon-idiots' "one turbolaser is ten gigatons of firepower per shot" Star Wars vs Babylon 5).
The fanon idiots assumption is actually worse than that: its 200 gigatons per shot.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#87
Prince Charon said:
ecs05norway said:
So, all of you. Shut up and let bissek write.
This. Seriously. If you don't like it, read a different fic. The only complaint I have about what ecs05norway said is rather minor and nitpicky:

---> 1a: If it is, pick an interpretation of your settings that maximizes the power differences (like, say, the fanon-idiots' "one turbolaser is ten gigatons of firepower per shot" Star Wars vs Babylon 5).
The fanon idiots assumption is actually worse than that: its 200 gigatons per shot.
Yeah, cause it's not like we're in a forum called The Fanfiction Forum-

Oh, wait.

Well, it's not like we're in a section of the forum for reading and reviewing fanfiction-

Oh, wait.

But, seriously though, at least this isn't a thread specifically for reviewing a fanfic-

Oh, wait.

But you're right, because we've been off topic-

Oh, wait.

Yeah...
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#88
Is this an Ozzallos thread? Because you're writing like one of his critics. Think about that for a minute.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#89
zeebee1 said:
Is this an Ozzallos thread? Because you're writing like one of his critics. Think about that for a minute.
I don't even know who you're talking about.

Edit: Googled it. This guy?

<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/u/891127/Ozzallos' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.fanfiction.net/u/891127/Ozzallos</a>

I've never read anything by him. Or heard of him before, actually.
 

Elvarein

Well-Known Member
#90
zeebee1 said:
Is this an Ozzallos thread? Because you're writing like one of his critics. Think about that for a minute.
Brevity is the soul of wit, but in this case, zeebee1, you forget your audience. For one akin to those mindless tape-recorders who MUST have their way, your succinct statement needs to be explained in simple words repetitively for their mind to accept. I shall do my humble best to explain.

Now Ozzallos is a person who loves writing well-written fics where he uses the mechanism of making Ranma for some reason or other spend most of his time as a female. ie Ranma-chan fics. Whenever he posts a story with this concept, his critics leap on like lemmings jumping off the cliff and REPEAT the same, tired old criticisms. They circle around the argument and denounce the concept of the story. Rephrasing, rehashing, reusing statements which while valid in their own way are distinctively unhelpful, given that the author already knows their view points and disagrees with them, could he please have some OTHER criticism.

By comparing you to these things, he is saying that you are leaping on a single flaw in the story (Power Levels are not right because.... ) which if taken as such deceptively seems to be a fundamental flaw (because the cross won't work). But in truth is actually a minor flaw by letting the author assume that the power levels are equalized. <s>And that by circling it and repeating your points in support of this single flaw you are hideously ridiculously annoying and a freaking moronic one track minded IDIOT. </s>

I hope you get our point.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#91
Elvarein said:
zeebee1 said:
Is this an Ozzallos thread? Because you're writing like one of his critics. Think about that for a minute.
Brevity is the soul of wit, but in this case, zeebee1, you forget your audience. For one akin to those mindless tape-recorders who MUST have their way, your succinct statement needs to be explained in simple words repetitively for their mind to accept. I shall do my humble best to explain.

Now Ozzallos is a person who loves writing well-written fics where he uses the mechanism of making Ranma for some reason or other spend most of his time as a female. ie Ranma-chan fics. Whenever he posts a story with this concept, his critics leap on like lemmings jumping off the cliff and REPEAT the same, tired old criticisms. They circle around the argument and denounce the concept of the story. Rephrasing, rehashing, reusing statements which while valid in their own way are distinctively unhelpful, given that the author already knows their view points and disagrees with them, could he please have some OTHER criticism.

By comparing you to these things, he is saying that you are leaping on a single flaw in the story (Power Levels are not right because.... ) which if taken as such deceptively seems to be a fundamental flaw (because the cross won't work). But in truth is actually a minor flaw by letting the author assume that the power levels are equalized. <s>And that by circling it and repeating your points in support of this single flaw you are hideously ridiculously annoying and a freaking moronic one track minded IDIOT. </s>

I hope you get our point.
I understand your point but reject its validity.

For starters, I've done more then point out just one flaw. Besides the power levels, I've also pointed out the problems with the Dark Kingdom, the problem with the continued presence of that one General, the problems with the premise of the story (which requires the survival of the Senshi).

And I believe it is worth noting that your arguments apply equally to yourselves. The reason I've brought up my point a number of times is because you guys keep insisting it's wrong, despite the evidence I (and others in this thread) have provided, as opposed to your complete lack of proof.

You have repeatedly insisted that there is not a problem because you can just plug your ears, close your eyes, and mindlessly ignore it. But as we have pointed out a number of times, being able to ignore a problem does not change the fact that there is a problem.

In addition, you have made the same mistake as many others in this thread by insisting that I am bitching because the power levels have been equalized. I have not done this; point of fact, I have stated earlier in this thread that I could understand doing that, and that it would make sense for the sake of a crossover.

But I have also pointed out (and you have bull-headishly ignored) that's very much not what happens in this story. The Nanoha-verse is completely over-powering the SM-verse to a degree that is painful to read.

And I understand that you don't mind that. I understand you don't think there's anything wrong with that.

And I would like to take this time to state that I could not give less of a shit that you do.
 

marthf1

Well-Known Member
#92
Using 'I reject your reality & substitute it with my own' instead could have been funny. Although it not fitting would be a problem....
 

Elvarein

Well-Known Member
#93
You know, I'm not actually arguing against the validity of your arguments (Some of which I happen to agree with)? And I definitely did exaggerate in your case about only having one argument. However, I'm simply saying that you have made your point, the authors/other members of the forum have said (as you yourself noted) that to them its not a serious problem. So leave it as that and stop bringing up the points again.

As you yourself said, this is a forum for giving feedback, not for griefing which is what you are doing. THIS is what I have a problem with. And for FREAKS SAKES! You are continuing this bloody argument on other forums as well (Spacebattles Forums Sailor Moon Recs). This goes beyond being measured and reasonable and goes straight into the realms of being a gibbering fanatic. AND if you do say that you do not freaking care. So be it, we can't stop you. Not here at least, but do not be surprised if everyone simply starts dismissing your statements out of hand or as flame bait.
 

Skelethin

Well-Known Member
#94
I noticed something about Ryuugi's arguments throughout all of this thread that amuses the hell out of me.

The Senshi in this are fighting guerrilla style combat. On the defensive side.

This is NOT productive to getting significantly better. Without the Moon Princess they don't have the firepower at this point to be able to deal directly with this threat.

It doesn't take being extremely skilled to be able survive that long. It takes a relatively incompetent enemy and some luck.

They don't seem to have trained themselves all that much during this, instead simply wishing to find the Princess and then get the hell out of the fighting demon business.

They all have 1, maybe 2 attacks that they know. They tactics are 'spam attack, hope it dies.' Which happens to work when the enemy basically uses zerg rush tactics, without the numbers necessary to overwhelm them.

As for Nanoha, she has had training by a government that specializes in magical combat, and has elevated it to a level the Senshi as they are currently are incapable of even thinking of.

The Senshi to utterly outclass just about everyone in the Nanoha universe in sheer potential... they just have zero way of unlocking any of it.
 

Ryuugi

Well-Known Member
#95
Skelethin said:
I noticed something about Ryuugi's arguments throughout all of this thread that amuses the hell out of me.

The Senshi in this are fighting guerrilla style combat. On the defensive side.

This is NOT productive to getting significantly better. Without the Moon Princess they don't have the firepower at this point to be able to deal directly with this threat.

It doesn't take being extremely skilled to be able survive that long. It takes a relatively incompetent enemy and some luck.

They don't seem to have trained themselves all that much during this, instead simply wishing to find the Princess and then get the hell out of the fighting demon business.

They all have 1, maybe 2 attacks that they know. They tactics are 'spam attack, hope it dies.' Which happens to work when the enemy basically uses zerg rush tactics, without the numbers necessary to overwhelm them.

As for Nanoha, she has had training by a government that specializes in magical combat, and has elevated it to a level the Senshi as they are currently are incapable of even thinking of.

The Senshi to utterly outclass just about everyone in the Nanoha universe in sheer potential... they just have zero way of unlocking any of it.
You would have a point if that was what they were allowed to do.

But since it's not, you don't.

You see, the Senshi don't have any choice in the battlefield, in the target, in the anything. But no matter what happens, guess what? They have to deal with it directly and quickly.

Why? Well, quite simply, the ark Kingdom's goal is to gather energy, and they can do that extremely quickly if not stopped.

So losing a battle against them isn't a situation that results in 'Oh, too bad, we lost the battle, and some people died...but at least we can win the war!' It's a situation that results in 'Oh, fuck, Metallia falls, everyone dies.' They don't have the option of running away.

In addition, you're wrong about anothe thing; their fighting against superior numbers; their enemies totally have the power to gang up on them. But in ddition to being able to do that, the Youma also have the whole shapeshifting thing going for them; they can easily use other tactics (and did, several times). Furthermore, the Youma and the Dark Kingdom have more raw power then the Senshi, by a lot, and really, really want them dead.

And et they have been holding off the Dark Kingdom for a year and a half. It's like the three hundred Spartan's all over againt. Only with just four of them. In fuku's.

Which is to say you're wrong, about everything.

Elvarein: How about no? People are allowed to think whatever they want, but that doesn't have anything to do with me, does it? They can think my arguments flame bait and dismiss everything I write; what do I care? Somebody's ignoring me on the internet? Oh, noes! It's not like most of my points aren't being ignored already.

And note the thing about Spacebattles is bullshit; I didn't start it. Point of fact, I didn't even get involved until several pages of back and forth argument. And even then, I only posted a few times.

Additionally, sum-total across both threads, this argument has lasted five or six pages, tops. If you consider that to be 'into the realms of being a gibbering fanatic' I advise you to shut the fuck up because you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Arguments have lasted hundreds of pages on this forum alone, and fifty page threads aren't uncommon on the internet.
 

Megaolix

Well-Known Member
#96
Ryuugi said:
And et they have been holding off the Dark Kingdom for a year and a half. It's like the three hundred Spartan's all over againt. Only with just four of them. In fuku's.
FALSE.

Do remember that up until now, it was all a urban legend for the general population. Meaning that the Dark Kingdom never send that many against them, nor was there any large scale operations, because that sure as hell would have been noticed.
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#97
Dude. All they do are large scale operations in the anime. The Missing Buses, the amusement park, cram school, Jadeite's Exercise plot, his talent contest, his radio event, his clock plan etc. Nephrite's even worse, his method is to take the energy worth of a large group of people from just one person, when they're energy is at their peak. They just cut back because they wanted their Super Youma and the Ginzuishou.

Manga. They were underground and considered myths. Even then all they did was large scale operations, Freezing Tokyo, Ghost Brides, The Killer Broadcast, stealing all of Tokyo's energy and disguising it as a black out.

The senshi just had good luck to appear before they can do anything too damaging in both verses and stop the Shittenou from getting that energy.
 

Megaolix

Well-Known Member
#98
And that's what I get for not actually knowing SM: look like a moron. Dammit. *Self-destruct*
 

bissek

Well-Known Member
#99
People, please remember that I noted that some of Ryuugi's points were valid and that I would try to incorporate them into the story when the time came - probably either next chapter or the one after - two pages ago. This bickering should have been dropped at that point.
 
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