Naruto Tsunade the Younger

balthanon

Well-Known Member
#26
Hmmm... did they actually mention that in the anime? I don't recall Suigetsu saying that, though it's been awhile at this point. Certainly provides a bit more reason for him making nice with Sasuke if an Uchiha was necessary for that in part. I really do need to get around to finishing off the story using the manga at this point given that it seems they're never going to do it in the anime. :) It would probably answer some of these questions and it isn't like I haven't received my fair share of spoilers just trawling through fanfiction.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#27
I always found it strange how losing his "soul arms" only prevented Orochimaru from using handseals specifically to cast jutsu. I mean, he could still use jutsu that don't require handseals, like that gross puke-himself-up replacement jutsu or the body stealing jutsu. And he could even use some jutsu that normally require handseals by substituting the handseals for fuuinjutsu script, which is how he could still use summoning jutsu with his arm tattoos. So shaping his chakra purely mentally is fine, and shaping his chakra with external runes is fine, but shaping his chakra with his fingers is out of the question. How exactly does that work?
 

balthanon

Well-Known Member
#28
Well, if you need to channel chakra through your tenketsu to manipulate it having his soul arms removed may well have been akin to having them amputated. One step beyond the blockage the Hyuuga do. Hmm... that could be an interesting method of having Tsunade 'heal' him actually-- basically have her figure out how to graft tenketsu from elsewhere on his body onto his arms and hands.

Also made me envision scenes of Shizune teaching Tsunade in my own fic (not sure why, maybe the thought of them doing research together on that), which could be kind of interesting to play around with. Having Orochimaru kidnap the deaged Tsunade might also be an interesting storyline with her trying to put together enough instinct and research to try and find something that will keep him off her back. (Maybe after an obligatory attempt at deception.)
 

Yorae Rasante

Well-Known Member
#29
I think it is because chakra is the mix of physical and spiritual energy... the arms lack the spiritual energy without the soul in them, thus they can't channel chakra.
I doubt it is so easy to use jutsus without arms... The body double and body-taking ones must have been made specifically to be usable in case he wasn't able to do handsigns, since on one he substitutes the whole body, would be weird if he expected to still have arms all the time he needed to use it, and the second... he exits the body to use it so...
And the other jutsus, he had almost three years to figure out how to do it and he uses what, a handful of them?
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#30
So he can't channel chakra through his hands because his arms are *literally* missing their "soul"? Like, he has soulless lumps of flesh just hanging off of his still ensouled shoulders? So the soul isn't just like, a mass of spiritual energy and/or consciousness that possesses the physical body... but an actual detailed spiritual analog that anatomically matches to the physical body it overlaps? Like, there is a spiritual equivalent to all of your physical organs? Do you have a "soul liver" in addition to your actual physical liver?

What a bizarre idea. How does spiritual amputation work with other organs besides the arms? What if someone amputated your spirit-lungs? Would you just lose the ability to channel chakra through your breath (so no more fire jutsu) but be otherwise fine (assuming a medic treated you)? Would amputating someone's spirit-stomach prevent them from swallowing impossibly large objects - like Orochimaru and his sword, or Naruto and that giant scroll-toad and Itachi's raven? Could you disable an Uchiha's sharingan by ripping out their "soul eyes"?

What about people who have lost their physical arms - do they still have invisible soul arms where their physical arms used to be?

---


I wonder if there is a limit to what jutsu can be used without handseals. The subject is almost never touched upon in the manga or any databooks to my knowledge. Hmm.

Sasuke learned how to use the chidori and a number of variations of it without needing handseals over the timeskip. Is it possible to learn how to drop the handseals from any elemental jutsu, or do you need to have a strong affinity for that element for such a feat to be possible? Could Sasuke potentially also learn how to use his fire jutsu without handseals but never felt it was worth spending the extra effort and time needed to do so?

Jiraiya told Naruto once that the Rasengan "has a difficult seal" but he didn't want Naruto to learn it that way ("just using chakra is good.") I assume this means that it is possible to perform the rasengan by using handseals instead of mastering the three stages of chakra control (rotation, power, containment) but that wouldn't have improved Naruto's abysmal chakra control so Jiraiya refused to teach him that method.

If Rasengan, an A-rank jutsu and the highest level of shape manipulation, has handseals but can be learned without needing them... does that mean that any other jutsu can potentially be learned the same way? Are handseals just a crutch that are commonly used because most ninja don't have to skill and/or time needed to truly master more than one or two jutsu?
 

balthanon

Well-Known Member
#31
Based on what we see in the fight between Sarutobi and Orochimaru, I have to expect that the soul is an analog. Otherwise there wouldn't really be any way for Orochimaru to have lost his arms like that. We also know it impacts the afterlife (or whatever qualifies one for the Edo Tensai) to be sealed away, so it is your actual consciousness as well presumably.

I would say it's entirely possible that having other portions of your soul ripped off could have the same effect in other areas. Though given that immediately afterwards Orochimaru can't move his arms at all (at least from what I recall), I suspect that having your "soul lungs" ripped out would be a death sentence for anyone who needs to breath. Likewise with your stomach and several other important organs.

That said, ripping out bits of the soul appears to be a rather difficult thing to do given that we only see it happen twice in the entire series and the person involved had to sacrifice their own soul as well.

For the handseals, I've always pretty much assumed that seals could eventually be done away with on most jutsu. (And it's certainly a common enough power up in fanfiction.) I don't think it is just dependent on chakra control though, otherwise Sakura would be pulling that off almost from the beginning of the series. There has to be something else to it as well.
 

alucard964

Well-Known Member
#32
shikamaru did a sealless henge in the first episode of the anime. so maybe its a genius thing.
 
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