Nasuverse 'Twitch' The Summons Around a Little

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#1
I'm sure I can't have been the first one to think of this, but I haven't seen it around. So I'll apologize in advance if I happen to be spouting a well-trod idea.

It's nowhere near as developed as I want it to be, either - I'm actually looking for sounding boards to bounce this around and see what develops.

Here's the setup. Rin actually succeeds in summoning Saber.

So when Shirou's making his subconscious summon to survive Lancer, who's the Servant with the closest connection to him? Yes, Shirou summons Archer.

(Studiously ignoring the fact that I could've said that from the start and saved almost three short paragraphs)

Beyond that, it's not especially developed. For instance, there's the fact that Archer wants to kill Shirou. So how would he survive long enough for anything to happen? Accidentally use a command seal? Screw up Archer's memories as Rin did?

And as an alternate, somewhat less serious idea - Shirou summons Archerko. Although I don't honestly know enough about Archerko to know how that would work out, the idea doesn't seem willing to exit my mind.

So. Thoughts?

Oh, and: "Hi, my name is Pale Wolf. I would've posted an introduction thread, but have no idea where one would do so. Denizen of Fukufics, so I come pre-warped."
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#2
Pale Wolf said:
I'm sure I can't have been the first one to think of this, but I haven't seen it around. So I'll apologize in advance if I happen to be spouting a well-trod idea.

It's nowhere near as developed as I want it to be, either - I'm actually looking for sounding boards to bounce this around and see what develops.

Here's the setup. Rin actually succeeds in summoning Saber.

So when Shirou's making his subconscious summon to survive Lancer, who's the Servant with the closest connection to him? Yes, Shirou summons Archer.

(Studiously ignoring the fact that I could've said that from the start and saved almost three short paragraphs)

Beyond that, it's not especially developed. For instance, there's the fact that Archer wants to kill Shirou. So how would he survive long enough for anything to happen? Accidentally use a command seal? Screw up Archer's memories as Rin did?

And as an alternate, somewhat less serious idea - Shirou summons Archerko. Although I don't honestly know enough about Archerko to know how that would work out, the idea doesn't seem willing to exit my mind.

So. Thoughts?

Oh, and: "Hi, my name is Pale Wolf. I would've posted an introduction thread, but have no idea where one would do so. Denizen of Fukufics, so I come pre-warped."
Heh. Welcome to TFF, Pale Wolf.

One of our users (ironixally, also a Fukufics user - Fautuous One) had a similar idea, in that Shirou summons Archer instead of Saber. The idea is very interesting, but since I'm not knowledgeable enough on F/SN, I can't do much with it.

I'd love to see it written, though.
 

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#4
Yeah, Rin summons Saber in that idea too. And yes, Shirou summons Archer... just not the Archer you'd automatically think of...
Ah yes, I remember having read that idea.

Regarding Archerko, that's actually more likely to work out well, considering Archerko would probably not want to kill Shirou.
True, but the disadvantage of that is the skipping of a lot of the tension that makes the 'summon Archer' idea so interesting.

The basis of A-ko is that she's Ilya, not too sure on her background but I gathered that she got raised up by Shirou and ended up getting a similar Reality Marble. Of course, you probably already knew that...
I wasn't really sure what the story behind Archerko was... I mean, I knew she looks like Ilya, but I thought she was a logical continuation of the 'Shirouko' fan-character (basically Heaven's Feel, the 'puppet' Shirou's body is replaced with is an Ilya-lookalike rather than his own body).

I've read the Sword Dancers doujinshi, so I know a little bit about her, but I haven't found the second, or any other sources in English (pity me my monolinguilism).

Regarding that though, it might be interesting if Archer initially defended Shirou from Lancer, but ended up too wounded to actually think about trying to off him immediately.
Hm, that's a thought.

"Why did you save me, then?"
"... Reflex?"

Further stalling could be done via command seal, perhaps...

Yup, 'lo! Didn't talk to ya much (or at all, IIRC) at Fukufics, but nice to see you here anyway.
Interesting to be here.

Yeah... If I remember right, you primarily hung out on Spamville, and well after I'd mostly fallen behind what was going on there.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#6
Shirou summoning Archer again? That brings back memories. :snigger:

Anyway, one important thing to take into account is the shifting in the time lines. While Archer will remain mainly because the very nature of the Throne of Heroes, this Shirou might end up quite different having not summoned Saber. And since Archer is no fool he should realize that. *And thus a whole new perspective to explore things from.*
 

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#7
Point. However, it's also much, much less difficult to pull off.
True. And has the advantage of being rather fun to think of.

Hmm, I was under the impression that Ilya somehow gave Shirou her body when she sacrificed herself to get rid of the Grail. Granted, it would have been a bit... uh, hard, ^^;; but they never mentioned Touko in that doujinshi, only that Rider somehow 'found' Shirou afterwards.
Think I'll take your word for it, since I haven't actually found it myself, at least not in English. Know where I could?

But, different doujinshi 'series'. Hmm, I also believe that Archer-ko was summoned by Ilya, heh. But anyway, I digress.
I haven't a clue on that.

Although it would also need to be a different entrance then Saber's, since there was a pause in the battle, and that would give Archer enough to time to gather his thoughts.
True, it'd have to be adjusted for that.

Another problem that comes to mind is, what exactly would Rin's catalyst for Saber be? It's not that hard for Rin to have the luck of summoning Saber, but what would she have of summoning THAT specific Saber (i.e., Arturia)?
... Who knows? The same thing she was depending on to get a Saber, and pure luck to get that one?

Yes, I was Himitsu's stalk- err, fangirl.
I didn't think it politic to say :D

You were my successor, and probably did the job better than I :yay:

Shirou summoning Archer again? That brings back memories.
Memories? Well, didn't think I was the first to have the idea...

Anyway, one important thing to take into account is the shifting in the time lines. While Archer will remain mainly because the very nature of the Throne of Heroes, this Shirou might end up quite different having not summoned Saber. And since Archer is no fool he should realize that. *And thus a whole new perspective to explore things from.*
True. That could change the 'kill the fool' goal to 'teach him a lesson before he does something stupid', perhaps...
 
#8
Don't forget to take account of Avalon... after all, that's how Kiritsugu and Shirou summoned Saber.

Heck, Avalon played a pretty big part in the entire Fate/Stay Night storyline. It was the only way for Saber to truly defeat Gilgamesh; even a Rin/Saber combo wouldn't defeat Gil without help.

The fact is that Rin had a pretty small probability of summoning Arturia from the get go... and Avalon made that zero. So in order to allow Rin to summon Saber, Avalon has to go... Kiritsugu doesn't get Saber... that means Shirou has to die... ... therefore allowing Kotomine to win the Holy Grail War... etc.

While Rin/Saber can defeat Beserker with little difficulty, Gilgamesh is still unstoppable... :yay:

For Rin to summon Saber requires changing a lot of plot related events. :sweat:

Although getting around Rin summoning Archer is a lot easier, all it requires is getting rid of that pendant she used to save Shirou's life... which shouldn't be too difficult...

"Oh I'm bloody and nearly died from a lance, but somehow I'm miraculously alive. OH LOOK! There's a pendant on the ground!"

DECISION POINT!

1) pick up pendant <-- gets summoned by Rin
2) don't pick up pendant <-- does not get summoned by Rin

I won't bother getting into the whole Archer already exists so it'll create an parallel reality and Archer will still end up being summoned debate...
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#9
Thoughts on this subject:

Kotomine summons Archer - that is, Emiya!Archer, not Gilgamesh - in the previous Grail War. On a whim, he gets a message to Sakura and Rin (before they're seperated) telling them to show up at the place where the duel between Kiritsugu and Kotomine is to take place. "You'll see something very interesting." He was planning to use them as hostages to prevent Saber and Kiritsugu from fighting at full strength.

But, they're late, so Kotomine's plan fails.

They become two more survivors of the post-Grail War calamity, but they have some magic power to help them survive. They stumble upon young Shirou as he walks around like a zombie, and see him collapse. A little first aid - and a strong effort with their untrained magic skills - sees Shirou just stable enough for Kiritsugu to be able to get him to a hospital.

The kids grow up seperate from each other as per canon, and forget about the incident (thinking that it was a dream, or a story they read).

Result: Shirou doesn't get super-fast regeneration, so he's more cautious about fighting against Servants. Once he learns how to Trace, though, he's eager as ever (just... a little smarter). Of course, he still has his "hero of justice" wish, courtesy of Kiritsugu's teachings.

At some time before the normal series start, Caster drags herself to the Emiya mansion rather than the Ryuudo temple, and thus begins everything.
I imagine Shirou will have a better chance to learn how to properly use his magic; Caster would likely (at least out of self-interest) teach him how to properly access his power and give her some of it.
(Possible Shirou/Caster lemon goes here.)

All the Master/Servant combinations would be the same, with the following exceptions:
-Shirou takes Caster on as his second Servant after he becomes a Master, but she's not the one he summoned. That position belongs to Gilgamesh, who Shirou summons by sheer luck alone (and Gil is plenty upset at having his Master's power being split between two Servants - naturally, he wants it all!).
-Rin succeeds in summoning Saber, though whether it's Arturia or not is up to the author.
-Kotomine's Emiya!Archer is the one left over from the previous Grail War, thus the one given time on earth by the Grail's taint.
-Assassin's persona and Master are up to the author. For a twist, have Fujimura be Kojiro!Assassin's Master. That would be interesting, especially if Rin summons Musashi as Saber (via a piece of the famous Boat Oar Sword).

Thoughts?
 
#11
fatuous one said:
Now, I can see that Rin's chance of Saber is VERY low, but how you figure that without Avalon it's zero? IIRC, neither Sakura or Kotomine had a proper catalyst (Avalon, A slab of stone from Heracles temple, C? Chulainn's earring, etc.) for summoning, it's just that their situations/personalities were similar enough to their Servants that that servant got summoned. Now, granted, Rin isn't exactly similar to Saber in that way, but it's still possible to tweak things enough to get a proper excuse for it.
I didn't say without Avalon, I said as long as Shirou has Avalon her chances were zero. As long as Shirou is in possession of Avalon, he'll get Saber. The system is managed by the greater grail, the greater grail picks out the masters. And the only real way the masters can "choose" their servants is by using a catalyst. Otherwise... she get's a pre-picked servant ^^

fatuous one said:
Err, actually, I beg to differ. Gilgamesh is widely known as the King of Carelessness, and Rin has been shown to be sufficiently devious. I'm not saying it would be easy, but I find it possible that Gilgamesh could lose so long as he didn't start spam attacking with Ea (something I've never seen him do anyway).
I disagree still. Regardless of how careless Gilgamesh is, he still remains the king of heroes for a reason; he has firepower equivalent to about four servants. The only reason Shirou/Saber had been ever able to defeat him was through:

1. Avalon
2. Unlimited Blade Works

And still, that was a lot of luck. Gilgamesh's carelessness really shows in the UBW arc where he could finish off Shirou using Ea, but instead took up Shirou's challenge and relied on his Gate of Babylon. And then he lost. A sword through the head. Yep... careless alright. After all, UBW served as the ultimate counter against the Gate of Babylon, but does nothing for Ea.

Avalon is the whole reason to how Shirou/Saber survived fighting Gilgamesh in the first place after all. In the Fate arc, Shirou did not have any defense against any of Gilgamesh's moves and should have died. But he had Avalon... thus turning the tide of the battle. Saber wasn't winning the fight with Gilgamesh at the end either... until she dragged out Avalon.

Although Saber with Rin is significantly powered up, Saber won't likely get through the many weapons of the Gates of Babylon. Rin has no defense against any of Gilgamesh's techs and never developed any.

She's devious, but then she'll need to know about Gilgamesh's abilities to begin with. Never mind the fact she won't survive the first encounter with him. After all... Sakura was impaled on sight by Gilgamesh on the HF arc...

Then again, while I could argue that Rin/Saber doesn't stand a fighting chance against Gilgamesh without outside help, we're talking about a fanfiction... so likely there will be a plot device or two that will change that.

This are just minor things either way. In fanfictions, these sort of details won't matter as much...

Agree to disagree?
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#12
I disagree still. Regardless of how careless Gilgamesh is, he still remains the king of heroes for a reason; he has firepower equivalent to about four servants. The only reason Shirou/Saber had been ever able to defeat him was through:
Ummm... I have to agree with F1 here, Gill will lose most of the times through carelessness. He is like that you know? Just look at the previous grail war where he was undoubtedly the strongest servant there and you'll get what i mean. Besides remember that he allowed his enemies time to regroup again and again.

Considering that Rin would have a chance to summon Saber long before Shirou, I don't see why it isn't in the realm of possibility.
True nevermind the fact that one could claim that the connection you have to yourself might be stronger than that of an artifact with its owner. *Thus providing reason as to why Shirou summons Archer and not Saber.*

I... kinda doubt that Emiya would do the same, especially since (I believe, anyway) that Kotomine no longer has any command seals over him, and can't order him to do as such.
Nevermind that once the seals are gone Kotomine is going to have a nasty surprise, especially if Emiya keeps his Archers mindset.


By the way, interesting ideas Toraneko though some of them are already in "The Works". *I just hope i'll decide to finish something sooner than later. *sigh**
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#13
What happens if Shirou does his summoning before Rin does? Would it be possible to have his connection to his future self greater than what he has towards Saber (even with Avalon). That way he gets Archer, and you can have Rin get Saber randomly.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#14
Fatuous One said:
Err, that is an interesting idea but... What's it got to do with this topic's idea? :huh:
Well, the topic (at the start of the thread, anyway) was how Rin might successfully summon Saber.

I chose to interpret that as "Not necessarily Arturia." :)

Honestly, I think your series of events deserves its own topic, quite a few neat possibilities.
I'll do that, then. Ctrl+V is fine too.

-Kotomine's Emiya!Archer is the one left over from the previous Grail War, thus the one given time on earth by the Grail's taint.
This part has the same problem as the topic idea. So long as Emiya remembers himself, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't try to hunt down his counterpart and kill him as soon as possible. He would have quite a few years to track him down even if he didn't remember his location very well.
Short answer: Archer is a Servant without a Master. Kiritsugu was a magic user. Taking down Kiritsugu wouldn't exactly be too difficult, but every bit of mana a Servant spends in combat (and merely fighting expends a Servant's mana) is a little bit less time for them to live.
I think Archer would wait until the opportune moment.

Also, Emiya still needs mana. Gilgamesh originally survived by feeding on the souls of various orphans and such, I... kinda doubt that Emiya would do the same, especially since (I believe, anyway) that Kotomine no longer has any command seals over him, and can't order him to do as such.
True, but also remember that a Servant can regain a small amount of mana by resting - enough to sustain them in normal conditions for a little over a day.
I'll address this more thoroughly in a new thread.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#15
I think Archer would wait until the opportune moment.
Kiritsugu can't exactly protect Shirou all the way, and besides who knows you better than yourself? It's enough for Archer to pick a date and it's settled.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#16
I saw this idea at Beast's Lair, and it appeals to me greatly



. . . for some answer, the idea of Saber coming back as a nonservant and accidentally summoning, say, a Servant Rin amuses me greatly.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#17
Moshulel said:
Kiritsugu can't exactly protect Shirou all the way, and besides who knows you better than yourself? It's enough for Archer to pick a date and it's settled.
On the contrary; there was much about Kiritsugu and his life that Shirou didn't know.

As to protecting Shirou all the time, maybe you're right - but also remember that Kiritsugu had powerful friends.

Also, recall that the main reason Archer wanted to kill Shirou was to prevent the sadness he faced from living and dying as someone who protected others, even at the cost of his own life.
As Shirou's life is not guaranteed to turn out the same way (duh) as Archer remembered - case in point, the Heaven's Feel arc - and that the turning point in Shirou's life was the next Grail War, he'd almost certainly wait until Shirou had reached the point of no return in his path to becoming Archer.

Killing him that early just isn't Archer's style, which (IMO) he proved in the original.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#18
On the contrary; there was much about Kiritsugu and his life that Shirou didn't know.
Do keep in mind that the man died long before the Grail War in which Shirou was involved.

he'd almost certainly wait until Shirou had reached the point of no return in his path to becoming Archer.
Depends... if he notices that little Shirou behaves exactly like he remembers, he might just get an impulse to deal with him.
 
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