What games are you playing 2: The revenge

[Ordo]

Overdone?

It's not merely overdone. It's completely cliche. It's so cliche that any time you encounter a god or a religious leader in a videogame, you're almost certainly going to have to kill him at some point. Evil Religious Leader Guy is right up there in the grand hall of cliche villains along with Evil King's Advisor/Wizard Guy, White Haired Prettyboy and That Mentor Person From the Beginning of the Game That Mysteriously Disappeared/Died Early On.

If I ever do create a video game, the church will not be the ultimate evil. Oh sure they may be a little hard nosed, and surprisingly well armed, but there's a reason.

Priest: "You see, the entire world is a hair away from being over run by Shagoths. We in the church put all our resources into halting their advance, preparing new warriors and cutting off their attempts to corrupt peoples and nations."

Bishop: "We used to work closely with some governments, but some of them betrayed us, either thinking they could handle the problem on their own, or choosing to ally with the evil Outsiders. We don't have the time and resources to dedicate to refuting their smear campaign, so we bring our message to the people and let them choose."

 

[Chuckg]

Moreover, I believe they honestly haven't made the connection between the Maker living in a Fade location and his being a Fade spirit himself. Because most Chantry people are... dimwitted... to say the least. I swear they effectively brainwashed themselves, because I can't call them evil. Majorly misguided and just plain dumb, yes, but ultimately good guys. They just don't connect the dots.

One of the things I love about Dragon Age is how legitimately medieval the 'feel' is. These aren't just modern-day people dressed up in period costumes; their whole worldview is suitably period.

In this particular case, you're running into that peculiarity of medieval thought where logic -- especially logic when applied to religious matters -- was all conflated with sophistry. (Sophistry (noun): the use of clever but false arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.)

Faith was what would save you. Faith was good. Logic was merely sophistry, and sophistry was the tool of Satan. The Devil would quote Scripture for his own purposes. If something in Holy Writ was an apparent self-contradiction, that's because it was ineffable; not because it was wrong. The entire point of faith was that you would hold onto it even in the face of what was rationally absurd; after all, it doesn't take any faith to believe in practical things.

You were literally encouraged to AVOID connecting cause with effect; if something did not make sense at face value that's because it was a test of your faith, you weak foolish man. Who are you, to pit your puny logic in the face of God's will? Do you truly imagine that your own intellect is the equal of Him? Nonsense!

Yes, all this at the same time medieval theologians made entire careers out of semantically parsing how many angel arses could fit on the head of a pin. We did mention they weren't much on consistency, right?

Indeed, I think you could date the Enlightenment to when 'It started being fashionable again to apply common fucking sense to philosophical problems'. But I grant that this isn't exactly the definition of a rigorously accurate historian, no.

Now, it is true that there is no such thing as a logical system that doesn't require you to take something on faith; you always have to start with a postulate. Its just that nowadays, we actually look back at our postulates sometimes and ask ourselves '... does this actually fit in with everything else I know, or am I assuming bullshit?'

 

[shinzero01]

Overdone?

It's not merely overdone. It's completely cliche. It's so cliche that any time you encounter a god or a religious leader in a videogame, you're almost certainly going to have to kill him at some point. Evil Religious Leader Guy is right up there in the grand hall of cliche villains along with Evil King's Advisor/Wizard Guy, White Haired Prettyboy and That Mentor Person From the Beginning of the Game That Mysteriously Disappeared/Died Early On.

If I ever do create a video game, the church will not be the ultimate evil. Oh sure they may be a little hard nosed, and surprisingly well armed, but there's a reason.

Priest: "You see, the entire world is a hair away from being over run by Shagoths. We in the church put all our resources into halting their advance, preparing new warriors and cutting off their attempts to corrupt peoples and nations."

Bishop: "We used to work closely with some governments, but some of them betrayed us, either thinking they could handle the problem on their own, or choosing to ally with the evil Outsiders. We don't have the time and resources to dedicate to refuting their smear campaign, so we bring our message to the people and let them choose."

Warhammer?

 

[Kibbles]

Overdone?

It's not merely overdone. It's completely cliche. It's so cliche that any time you encounter a god or a religious leader in a videogame, you're almost certainly going to have to kill him at some point. Evil Religious Leader Guy is right up there in the grand hall of cliche villains along with Evil King's Advisor/Wizard Guy, White Haired Prettyboy and That Mentor Person From the Beginning of the Game That Mysteriously Disappeared/Died Early On.

If I ever do create a video game, the church will not be the ultimate evil. Oh sure they may be a little hard nosed, and surprisingly well armed, but there's a reason.

Priest: "You see, the entire world is a hair away from being over run by Shagoths. We in the church put all our resources into halting their advance, preparing new warriors and cutting off their attempts to corrupt peoples and nations."

Bishop: "We used to work closely with some governments, but some of them betrayed us, either thinking they could handle the problem on their own, or choosing to ally with the evil Outsiders. We don't have the time and resources to dedicate to refuting their smear campaign, so we bring our message to the people and let them choose."

Warhammer?

Sounds more like the Most Holy and Secret Order of St. George from DarkMatter, a setting for the old Alternity d20 system. That's ... pretty much what they did in the setting.

Well, less world-ending abominations that drive you insane just by looking at them and more protecting the people from things that go bump in the night, but the principle is, ultimately, the same.

 

[grant]

Overdone?

It's not merely overdone. It's completely cliche. It's so cliche that any time you encounter a god or a religious leader in a videogame, you're almost certainly going to have to kill him at some point. Evil Religious Leader Guy is right up there in the grand hall of cliche villains along with Evil King's Advisor/Wizard Guy, White Haired Prettyboy and That Mentor Person From the Beginning of the Game That Mysteriously Disappeared/Died Early On.

If I ever do create a video game, the church will not be the ultimate evil. Oh sure they may be a little hard nosed, and surprisingly well armed, but there's a reason.

Priest: "You see, the entire world is a hair away from being over run by Shagoths. We in the church put all our resources into halting their advance, preparing new warriors and cutting off their attempts to corrupt peoples and nations."

Bishop: "We used to work closely with some governments, but some of them betrayed us, either thinking they could handle the problem on their own, or choosing to ally with the evil Outsiders. We don't have the time and resources to dedicate to refuting their smear campaign, so we bring our message to the people and let them choose."

Warhammer?

Warhammer fantasy has pointed out that many of the things priests are able to do are very similar to magic. Of course you do have definite gods in this setting...and any relatively sane person would consider them to be horrible abominations that should be killed with world shattering weapons.

 

[Chuckg]

Its a definitely left open possibility in Warhammer that priests of Sigmar are merely subconscious mages with a different belief system, yes. The only gods confirmed as actually existing are the Ruinous Powers, and I think an elven deity (since fallen).

 

[Crusader]

One of the things I love about Dragon Age is how legitimately medieval the 'feel' is. These aren't just modern-day people dressed up in period costumes; their whole worldview is suitably period.

Isn't it because the game is inspired by George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series?

 

[OniGanon]

To be fair DA does it differently. For one, the church itself isn't evil, it is genuinely trying to make things better. It is heavy handed on the whole Mage treatment thing and wants to spread the teachings of Andraste, yes, but it isn't like "convert or die" the way 99% of evil churches are portrayed.

The lower end of the Chantry, including the Templars, has good folk trying to do something right in a crapsack world.

The leadership of the Chantry are bent on world domination and conversion, deliberately get the Templars addicted to Lyrium to control them even knowing that it will eventually make them go mad, control the Magi in such a way that is practically guaranteed to periodically cause the very atrocities they're trying to prevent, attempted genocide on the Elves for being a bunch of heretics and enslaved the survivors, and depending on your choices, may attempt genocide on the Dwarves.

 

[Chuckg]

control the Magi in such a way that is practically guaranteed to periodically cause the very atrocities they're trying to prevent

I agree with the rest, but you can't hold this one against them; the atrocities they're trying to prevent will periodically be attempted no matter what anyone else does or doesn't do.

 

[GenocideHeart]

I also disagree with the point about the Elves. OniGanon forgets that DA elves, in the past, were complete asshats in the precise exact same way humans are to them now. They used to run their empire in the exact same way the Tevinter ran theirs, and that came back to bite them in the ass when humans got pissed off for the umpteenth time and decided to steamroll the arrogance right out of them.

Of course, the Dalish don't see it that way, but the Dalish are also extremely biased and xenophobic.

Nobody is innocent in DA, and the nonhumans, for once, tend to be WORSE than the humans at that. Elves are oppressed TODAY; but it's really karma for what they did in the past IMHO.

 

[grant]

I also disagree with the point about the Elves. OniGanon forgets that DA elves, in the past, were complete asshats in the precise exact same way humans are to them now. They used to run their empire in the exact same way the Tevinter ran theirs, and that came back to bite them in the ass when humans got pissed off for the umpteenth time and decided to steamroll the arrogance right out of them.

Of course, the Dalish don't see it that way, but the Dalish are also extremely biased and xenophobic.

Nobody is innocent in DA, and the nonhumans, for once, tend to be WORSE than the humans at that. Elves are oppressed TODAY; but it's really karma for what they did in the past IMHO.

Karma does not justify the treatment of elves in the game any more than it would in real life. Hypothetically, Japanese atrocities during the 1930s wouldn't justify Chinese atrocities today.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Karma does not justify the treatment of elves in the game any more than it would in real life. Hypothetically, Japanese atrocities during the 1930s wouldn't justify Chinese atrocities today.

The problem is that the elves DID have a chance to stop acting like asshats. They didn't take it, straying back to being arrogant asses until the humans had enough and stomped them flat. I don't normally make such statements, but I'm starting to suspect that assholishness is genetic in elvenkind. Basically every 'free' Dalish elf you meet looks down on EVERYONE not a Dalish elf. They don't like humans, they don't like dwarves, hell, they despise CITY ELVES too, whose only 'sin' is to be slaves.

Given the general attitude of elves in DA, I find it very hard to have any sympathy for them. They were given a chance and basically ruined it by being idiots. Now their descendants are paying for their ancestors' foolishness. And the few 'free' elves that exist do NOTHING to improve the reputation of their race. That whole mess with the Lycanthropes? THE ELVES STARTED IT. Shame on them for that.

And of course they whine about how they are the hurt part. Wait, one of your own curses those guys to be werewolves forever and pass it on to their descendants, and instead of getting him to undo that, you BACK HIM UP and then COMPLAIN WHEN THE WEREWOLVES UNDERSTANDABLY GET PISSED and start gutting you?

The only actually decent elves, ironically enough, are the enslaved ones.

 

[Watashiwa]

Eh. I disagree that the elves deserve their treatment now, if only because I don't agree that the sins of the father are passed down to the son.

That said, the old elven empires were bad. Really bad.



Now, in news that I actually care about, my regrinding is starting to bear fruit. I'm going to max out my Martial Artist's shield skill using the Warrior and Gladiator classes, finish alchemizing some last few pieces of equipment, switch everyone back to their original class, give them a handful of extra levels and beat the last boss.

Hopefully.

 

[Chuckg]

Given the general attitude of elves in DA, I find it very hard to have any sympathy for them. They were given a chance and basically ruined it by being idiots. Now their descendants are paying for their ancestors' foolishness. And the few 'free' elves that exist do NOTHING to improve the reputation of their race. That whole mess with the Lycanthropes? THE ELVES STARTED IT. Shame on them for that.

1) 'Bloodline guilt' is itself a medieval concept, and one us post-Englightenment people rightfully regard as barbaric.

2) The werewolf thing was one elf, an elf your Dalish Elf PC explicitly gets dialogue to say that he has betrayed Dalish ideals in so acting. And even that elf started out having a point before he went over the line; murdering the people what actually raped and killed his family is understandable. Where Zathrian went off the rails is when he applied the sins of the fathers to the sons... which is exactly what you argued the elves deserved.

3) Godwin alert! The existence of Nazi Germany was considered just cause for making war on Germany, wrecking it, deposing its government, and giving it a new one at gunpoint. It was not, nor would it ever be, considered just cause for the attempted genocide of the entire German people.

 

[GenocideHeart]

2) The werewolf thing was one elf, an elf your Dalish Elf PC explicitly gets dialogue to say that he has betrayed Dalish ideals in so acting.? And even that elf started out having a point before he went over the line; murdering the people what actually raped and killed his family is understandable.? Where Zathrian went off the rails is when he applied the sins of the fathers to the sons... which is exactly what you argued the elves deserved.

"Dalish ideals" are incredibly vague, given how Tamlen proposes murdering people who were just minding their own business just because they were human... in fact, it is Talen's excessive aggression and spiteful attitude towards those three humans that forces the Dalish Warden's tribe to relocate away from their area, as regardless of what you do, the local village goes up in arms against the Dalish elves, which are regarded as violent and dangerous (rightfully so, given how a lot of the tribesmen more or less do the same thing grant is doing in reverse and lump all humans, even ones that mind their own business, under 'abominable beings who deserve to be killed', and how, as mentioned, Tamlen was constantly egging my character on to kill them without even listening to WHY they were in the forest).

Also note how the Dalish Warden has some of the more rude and... bloodthirsty... dialogue options in the game, even to non-humans and fellow elves.

I understand that 'sins of the fathers' isn't a good thing to do, but I will readily admit that the Dragon Age elves's history of arrogance and not learning from their own mistakes makes them about even with Dwarves as 'least sympathetic race in the game'.

How often do you get a high fantasy game where not only are humans bastards, but elves and dwarves are such humongous assholes they actually make humans look like the lesser of three evils? Hell, I've seen HOSTILE FADE DEMONS that look positively charming compared to dwarves and elves. They at least are straightforward and predictable in how they act...

3) Godwin alert! The existence of Nazi Germany was considered just cause for making war on Germany, wrecking it, deposing its government, and giving it a new one at gunpoint. It was not, nor would it ever be, considered just cause for the attempted genocide of the entire German people.

There's just one problem with that. Even the elven lorekeeper admits that his race as a whole grew too proud. It's not just A FEW individuals dooming the rest, the entire elven race, both times it got stomped flat, caused their own downfall by being, to essentially the last man, well... arrogant assholes.

I found myself considering that elves who escaped from Alienages during the game (due to Darkspawn mostly) are the only ones who actually act in a friendly, decent way. In fact, they tend to be the most decent people in the game - they aren't rude, they are genuinely friendly and grateful if you help them out of their problems, and in general, they seem to at least have grown up learning to appreciate the good things in life... which is sadly more than I can say of 99% of the rest of NPCs and citizen in Thedas, be they human, dwarves or elves.

I mean, seriously, Duncan saves the Dalish Warden's ungrateful ass from being eaten by spiders in those ruins and/or dying horribly of the Blight, and two of the three responses you can choose basically amount to 'he's human, he must be scum!'.

Come on now, I could understand a random human, but as much as I hate Duncan, he DOES save your ass back there. No question. A little gratitude may be in order.

 

[Ina_meishou]

I'd be interested in where these tales of how horrible the Elves were prior to their enslavement come from.

Going on information from the game, the codex, etc. The elves weren't particularly horrid or particularly great. they just were.

And then they figured out that "hey, spending time with humans makes us mortal, we might want to stop that".

so they went isolationist, as in, they just tried to break off contact. Not declare war, not murder humans, no.

The humans then attacked them, took over their lands, and enslaved them.

So, they're slaves for centuries, their culture and their immortality fade and die, and then they join a rebellion.

The rebellion is successful, they get land and form a new homeland, with their own government.

But they don't convert. And so the very factions that they helped throw off the Imperium turn on them and take their homeland again.

Now, elves might try to live with humans, but they are second class citizens at best, often slaves or trapped in endless indenture.

The Dalish, are the only "independent' elves left. and they've been fucked over by pretty much everyone for the last couple thousand years.

Yes, they're assholes who don't trust anyone. They have good reason to be. Because every power group (other than the leaders of the Dales) they know of that's existed for the last two millennia has attacked or back-stabbed them.

 

[Chuckg]

There's also that the keeper of your own tribe thinks that Tamlen went too far, if you just greased the intruders cold. (Not to mention that I can think of several 'civilized' nations in Dragon Age whose border guards would also kill you just for showing up in the middle of their territory without permission; we visit at least one of them).

Also, you entirely missed the Germany analogy; even being aggressive, conquering dicks (and it hasn't even been established that the elves were conquering dicks, merely isolationist dicks) is not justification for genocide. Its justification for beating them up until they lose either the desire or the ability to continue a war of aggression, but its not justification for trying to eliminate the elven species from existence.

or: We conquered Germany, we didn't vaporize it. And then we gave it back to the next generation of Germans.

Basically, the Dalish come across to me as the natural result of being the survivors of an attempted genocide campaign who have then lived without a homeland for centuries; suspicious as hell and ready to shoot if you breathe wrong, but ultimately just wanting you to leave them alone. They don't want to take what you have; they just want you to stay the hell away.

 

[GenocideHeart]

They didn't just 'retreat in isolation', no. They explicitly attempted to boot all humans back to Par Vollen when they found out they were *susceptible to human diseases*, blaming them for something they had no control over.

Unfortunately, they hosed themselves - the humans they drove off were the ONLY thing keeping the Tevinter Imperium in check, and without that buffer, it started expanding uncontrollably and conquered everything.

And afterwards, when the Dales were formed? Elves remained, in their words, 'neutral'. In essence, it led to this:

When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais.

I don't want to make too fine a point of this, but back then, Elves were still liked due to their service under Andraste, even if they closed themselves off - and humans actually respected that choice to close off. This particular action, well... made things go south in addition to being a callous act of disregard for life in the face of something that threatened EVERYONE.

Even the fucking DWARVES fought against that Blight. Were were the Dalish at that point? Oh right, watching and twiddling their collective thumbs. Way to make yourselves look like the good guys there folks. Had your time with Andraste taught you nothing? People in need are people in need, no matter their race - if Andraste'd been mindful of race, you'd all still be speaking Tevinter.

In fact, it's the exact same thing Loghain did - only worse because Montsimmard wasn't all soldiers, it was a civilian town, with women, children and the elderly.

And according to reports, they just sat and watched the Darkspawn happily eat them up.

I'm sorry, but that isn't something that attracts sympathy.

EDIT:

There's also that the keeper of your own tribe thinks that Tamlen went too far, if you just greased the intruders cold. (Not to mention that I can think of several 'civilized' nations in Dragon Age whose border guards would also kill you just for showing up in the middle of their territory without permission; we visit at least one of them).

Except that the area your tribe is in ISN'T your territory. Your tribe elder explicitly says that the forest you are in is THE HUMANS' property, and you are just passing by (nomadic tribe moving from one camp to the other, remember?). YOU are the intruders in that area, the Elder herself admits it, and your basically relentlessly chasing three idiots who nearly got eaten by a Darkspawn while searching for treasure like that hardly constitutes legitimate behavior.

 

[Chuckg]

They didn't just 'retreat in isolation', no. They explicitly attempted to boot all humans back to Par Vollen when they found out they were *susceptible to human diseases*, blaming them for something they had no control over.

Y'know, there's no requirement in international diplomacy to willingly expose yourself to plague. Nor is isolationism a moral justification for genocide.

Remember. You are trying to justify the attempted genocide of a sentient race. That is an unbelievably high bar you have to clear; 'the elves were complete assholes' is not enough. Name a race in Dragon Age that hasn't been complete assholes at least once; God knows the humans, dwarves, and qunari have been.

Also, be very careful about accepting codex evidence as Word of God; Bioware explicitly went for a 'history is written by the winners' approach in the DA Codex. On topics that are of, shall we say, great political sensitivity... the historian might be shading the truth a bit.

And fug, if even the Chantry version of events can't do more than vaguely allege... well, let's just say, I don't believe it.

And according to reports, they just sat and watched the Darkspawn happily eat them up.

I'm sorry, but that isn't something that attracts sympathy.

According to the Chantry, the Tevinter Imperium created the Darkspawn; why are they still possessing a kingdom when the elves aren't?

 

[GenocideHeart]

Y'know, there's no requirement in international diplomacy to willingly expose yourself to plague. Nor is isolationism a moral justification for genocide.

True, but booting people clear out of a territory they had settled in with your explicit permission without even giving them a chance to do something about the situation is hardly the pinnacle of diplomacy.

Also, even OTHER HUMANS hated the Tevinter, and given what kind of people the Tevinter are, I am hesitant to classify them as 'human' anymore. Other humans in the game certainly don't - I hear nothing but definitions like 'monsters' and 'abominations' about them.

I can just as easily turn your argument over how actions of the past should not be accounted for the future and say that actions of a specific minority shunned by the entire rest of the race shouldn't account for what the whole race does. Can we honestly say the Tevinter's action can be chalked up to the human race, given how a LOT of entries, including ones from old Tevinter texts, basically said ancient Tevinters had become borderline inhuman from Lyrium abuse and looked like something straight out of the Fade?

I just don't chalk Tevinter actions up to the rest of the human race. They are hideous monsters even by Dragon Age standards.

 

[SEG-CISR]

Did anyone else notice the Harry Potter Music playing in the citadel? or am I just crazy?

heard it when talking to the volus used car/ shuttle salesman.

I know ME and ME2 used a bunch of Sim City music, maybe that's what you heard... or the original score.

 

[Chuckg]

True, but booting people clear out of a territory they had settled in with your explicit permission without even giving them a chance to do something about the situation is hardly the pinnacle of diplomacy.

Irrelevant; you are arguing that the attempted genocide of the elves was morally justified, therefore you must present a case that justifies the genocide of a sentient race.

Hint: there is no amount of merely human dickery that ever does justify such. Even levels of dickery that would justify conquering the entire elven nation do not justify the actual exterminating of elves.

You have to start getting into things like darkspawn or Chaos Beastmen before attempted genocide stops being 'The fuck is wrong with you, man?' territory.

Also, even OTHER HUMANS hated the Tevinter, and given what kind of people the Tevinter are, I am hesitant to classify them as 'human' anymore. Other humans in the game certainly don't - I hear nothing but definitions like 'monsters' and 'abominations' about them.

Loghain obviously didn't have that problem. And note that the Tevinter Imperium still maintains diplomatic and trade relations with Ferelden.

Really, dude, you're arguing that at a certain point, its OK to try and obliterate an entire sentient species from the face of the planet. That is a bad, bad road to go down. The only species to which this even begins to apply as a necessary solution are things that stop being 'people' and start being 'Aggressive Hegemonizing Swarm Object', to borrow a sci-fi term from Iain M. Banks.

 

[Watashiwa]

Gah! People, we have a Dragon Age thread! Go talk about second rate RPGs there!

( :lol: )

Seriously, talk about the games you're playing here, and the morality of fictional characters elsewhere.

 

[Crusader]

Looks like the kettle's starting to boil due to extensive usage of the Screw You Elves trope here. I think it would have exploded more if someone had ranted on how much they hate Jack Rakan and praised that Fate easily deleted the guy from existence despite being a broken ?bermensch.

Maybe we should make a thread about the Screw You Elves phenomenon where everyone can't vent out their reasons for dislking elves. Me, I can most of the time control myself when it comes to elves, but if you add both elves and elven katanas in the picture, my issues against elves seem to surface.

 

[core_88]

In dragon age the screw you elves trope is turned around pretty much playing city elf makes me think that whatever the elves have done they've payed a hundredfold by the time of DA:O remember in the Orlesian empire elves are property.