Nasuverse Zelretch's Hallowe'en Experiments

[Deathwings]

Archer was able to create and launch several swords at once but I think it was more a "one sword per Circuit" deal.

Tough while he could theoretically do it, I doubt Shirou would be able to perform 27 tasks at once by simple virtue of not being able to multi-task at such a level.

Also, Shirou only has about 40 to 50 unit of Od, so useless he is contracted to Rin he can't use his Circuits full capacity without killing himself.

Now, if he ever managed to learn how to process Mana into Prana, which is how magecraft is normally performed, that would be something else entirely.

 

[Cherry_lover]

The whole point of this is that he's handing out power and skill for at least one night.

If all Zelretch can come up with is giving people power and skills, he's not as smart as advertised.

I got one: Shirou/Kirei dresses as Tohsaka Toikomi and Sakura as Tohsaka Aoi. Shinji is Kariya. Rin isn't warned.

Drama ahoy! Grab the popcorn!

Hmm, yeah, that would be interesting (I think it'd be more likely to be Shirou as Tokiomi than Kirei, though, because Sakura actually likes Shirou...). Hopefully it won't end as it did in canon, though....

 

[zeebee1]

But that method isn't as fun, not if this only lasts one night.

 

[Cherry_lover]

But that method isn't as fun, not if this only lasts one night.

Kirei as Tokiomi just doesn't make sense, though. Shirou as Tokiomi does.

 

[Prince Charon]

Suppose Shirou dresses as Ichigo. Just how many 'interesting' swords has Ichigo seen, so far?

Related strange thought: Shirou goes as Kuchiki Byakuya, Sakura as the spirit of Senbonzakura, Ilya as Rukia, and Rin as Yoruichi.

 

[TmDagger]

Suppose Shirou dresses as Ichigo. Just how many 'interesting' swords has Ichigo seen, so far?

Related strange thought: Shirou goes as Kuchiki Byakuya, Sakura as the spirit of Senbonzakura, Ilya as Rukia, and Rin as Yoruichi.

On Ichigo case: Would his RM project degraded copies of Zanpakuto spirits or just swords. If it's former then Shirou would gain a very badass army.

 

[zeebee1]

Ichigo has not seen a single sword in the series. The most he's seen is a soul manifestation or a container of power that's shaped like a sword.

 

[Prince Charon]

Ichigo has not seen a single sword in the series. The most he's seen is a soul manifestation or a container of power that's shaped like a sword.

The problem with that statement is that we don't know how his RM defines 'Sword', so we can't say whether a Zanpakutou counts as one.

Given that he can Trace Rho Aias, and its a forcefield made of petals that acts as a shield, though, I'd say that Zanpakutou count. For one thing, even ignoring Rho Aias, its called 'Unlimited Blade Works', and Zanpakutou do have blades.

 

[zeebee1]

Shirou has been confirmed of having the potential of duplicating anything as long as it is a weapon. But a zanpakuto isn't a weapon. It is a soul shaped construct that has similar capabilities to weapons.

Considering that he can't duplicate Ea since it is made of materials from a place that isn't earth duplicating souls should be out of his league.

To summarize, if Shirou cannot understand all of the materials he cannot duplicate the weapon.

 

[nick012000]

Shirou has been confirmed of having the potential of duplicating anything as long as it is a weapon. But a zanpakuto isn't a weapon. It is a soul shaped construct that has similar capabilities to weapons.

Considering that he can't duplicate Ea since it is made of materials from a place that isn't earth duplicating souls should be out of his league.

To summarize, if Shirou cannot understand all of the materials he cannot duplicate the weapon.

And the material in question is the material of human souls. That is, they're made out of prana.

Guess what Shirou's projections are made out of? Prana. He just makes it think that it's metal instead, a step he could skip with a zanpakuto.

 

[Ura Mamoru]

Shirou has been confirmed of having the potential of duplicating anything as long as it is a weapon.á But a zanpakuto isn't a weapon. It is a soul shaped construct that has similar capabilities to weapons.

Considering that he can't duplicate Ea since it is made of materials from a place that isn't earth duplicating souls should be out of his league.

To summarize, if Shirou cannot understand all of the materials he cannot duplicate the weapon.

And the material in question is the material of human souls. That is, they're made out of prana.

Guess what Shirou's projections are made out of? Prana. He just makes it think that it's metal instead, a step he could skip with a zanpakuto.

This argument came up before in the Bleach section, but I guess I'll restate my viewpoint.

Shirou needs to undergo several steps to trace an object (he works best with swords, but with a greater prana cost, he can project other things). The problem is, several of those steps are almost certainly beyond his ability to grasp when you use a Zanpakuto as the object in question.

• Step 1: Judging the concept of creation. The problem here is that Shirou would have no way to understand how to create a soul in the first place. If he did, he would have the knowledge of how to perform Heaven's Feel, one of the True Magics.
• Step 2: Hypothesizing the basic structure. Would Shirou have any real understanding about spiritrons to be able to complete this step? Looking at the information I could find on "Prana" and "Soul", the two are not at all synonymous, despite what you've said.
• Step 3: Duplicating the composition material. This step is... I'm not sure if this step is possible for him or not if he could get past the two hurdles above. He would have to be able to perform Gradation Air to create spiritrons.
• Step 4: Imitating the skill of its making. Shirou, again, has no clue how to create a soul, so this step is also a bust. This, again, falls under the purview of Heaven's Feel.
• Step 5: Sympathizing with the experience of its growth. I am on the fence as to whether he could do that with someone else's soul. Wouldn't doing that result in him perfectly understanding a Shinigami's entire life (both as a human and as a Shinigami)?
• Step 6: Reproducing the accumulated years: This step isn't actually an issue - Shirou has traced objects that were hundreds of years old before (see nearly every Noble Phantasm he's ever traced).
• Step 7: Excelling every manufacturing process. Like steps 1, 2 and 4, this is beyond Shirou. Without knowledge of how to create a soul, he can't excel at it.

 

[Prince Charon]

Maybe, maybe not. Dressing as Byakuya instead of Ichigo might help with some of those issues (and I'm curious as to how the others' costumes would effect them, in that scenario).

Perhaps <a href='http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ury%C5%AB_Ishida' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Ishida</a> would be more useful. His power involves collecting energy from the environment, and his abilities are designed for use within a living body, IIRC. For example, imagine what Shirou could do with <a href='http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hirenkyaku' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Hirenkyaku</a>. Not sure how many of the Quincy techniques he's be capable of (maybe all, maybe only a few), but even just a few would be helpful. I've seen people comment that Shirou only knows how to use his od for prana, not the mana around him, but I can't find a canon source for that statement. If it is true, just the ability to gather mana would benefit him.

Not sure if he'd be able to use <a href='http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Gint%C5%8D' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>gintou</a> or not. He does have the ability to preform non-sword magics, so its at least possible.

 

[zeebee1]

Quincy abilities seem much more likely as they are largely based on things made through normal materials. And if he was granted Ishida's knowledge he should be capable of the skills. But it comes down to a basic problem. Quincy weapons are not swords. Shirou makes inferior products if it isn't a sword.

 

[nick012000]

Shirou has been confirmed of having the potential of duplicating anything as long as it is a weapon.á But a zanpakuto isn't a weapon. It is a soul shaped construct that has similar capabilities to weapons.

Considering that he can't duplicate Ea since it is made of materials from a place that isn't earth duplicating souls should be out of his league.

To summarize, if Shirou cannot understand all of the materials he cannot duplicate the weapon.

And the material in question is the material of human souls. That is, they're made out of prana.

Guess what Shirou's projections are made out of? Prana. He just makes it think that it's metal instead, a step he could skip with a zanpakuto.

This argument came up before in the Bleach section, but I guess I'll restate my viewpoint.

Shirou needs to undergo several steps to trace an object (he works best with swords, but with a greater prana cost, he can project other things). The problem is, several of those steps are almost certainly beyond his ability to grasp when you use a Zanpakuto as the object in question.

• Step 1: Judging the concept of creation. The problem here is that Shirou would have no way to understand how to create a soul in the first place. If he did, he would have the knowledge of how to perform Heaven's Feel, one of the True Magics.

Shirou doesn't need to know how to create a soul. He just needs to know how to create a zanpakuto, and that's easy: you rip out a chunk of your soul and turn it into a sword. You know, just like he does every time he Projects something with Unlimited Blade Works.

• Step 2: Hypothesizing the basic structure. Would Shirou have any real understanding about spiritrons to be able to complete this step? Looking at the information I could find on "Prana" and "Soul", the two are not at all synonymous, despite what you've said.

Yes, they are. The Odic Force is the energy of the soul; this is why Servants can feed on souls to sustain themselves, and why draining people of the Od renders them unconscious and eventually kills them if you drain enough.

• Step 3: Duplicating the composition material. This step is... I'm not sure if this step is possible for him or not if he could get past the two hurdles above. He would have to be able to perform Gradation Air to create spiritrons.

He doesn't need to create the spiritrons; the sword would already be made out of spiritrons to begin with since it would be made out of his soul! That's what Unlimited Blade Works is: the manifestation of Shirou's soul.

• Step 4: Imitating the skill of its making. Shirou, again, has no clue how to create a soul, so this step is also a bust. This, again, falls under the purview of Heaven's Feel.

He doesn't need to make a soul. He just needs to rip a chunk off of his own, and that's the magic of Unlimited Blade Works. That's why his Projection is so unique to begin with.

• Step 5: Sympathizing with the experience of its growth. I am on the fence as to whether he could do that with someone else's soul. Wouldn't doing that result in him perfectly understanding a Shinigami's entire life (both as a human and as a Shinigami)?

He doesn't need to understand their entire life. He just needs to understand their relationship with their zanpakuto.

• Step 6: Reproducing the accumulated years: This step isn't actually an issue - Shirou has traced objects that were hundreds of years old before (see nearly every Noble Phantasm he's ever traced).

Granted.

• Step 7: Excelling every manufacturing process. Like steps 1, 2 and 4, this is beyond Shirou. Without knowledge of how to create a soul, he can't excel at it.
  

Except that he doesn't need to create a soul. He just needs to reproduce things like Bankai training.

 

[Prince Charon]

Quincy abilities seem much more likely as they are largely based on things made through normal materials. And if he was granted Ishida's knowledge he should be capable of the skills. But it comes down to a basic problem. Quincy weapons are not swords. Shirou makes inferior products if it isn't a sword.

True, but firstly, 'inferior' does not mean 'useless', and secondly, not all of the Quincy techniques require him to create anything. EDIT: He could physically make the silver tubes, for example, though the expense would make Rin sympathise with him.

@nick012000: Good analysis, and it works even better if he'd gone as Kuchiki Byakuya, who has a very good chance of knowing how zanpakutou are made (he'd certainly know better than Ichigo, and has seen more swords), and having been a shinigami, would naturally sympathise with a shinigami's life.

There's also the fact that Zel's Mystic Code here doesn't so much reach for the exact universe of a story, as find the nearest equivalent that can exist in the Nasuverse - so, 'spiritrons' are probably mana, od, or prana, to begin with. I thought I said that here, but maybe I only said it on BL?

 

[zeebee1]

Zanpakuto aren't made. There is a process to bring out their power, but they are a natural product of the soul.

 

[TmDagger]

Zanpakuto aren't made. There is a process to bring out their power, but they are a natural product of the soul.

So Shirou would get Zanpakuto that can mimic any sword(armament) he ever saw.

 

[trevelyan1983]

OK guys, Rin on Souls:

"Since ancient times, souls have been hard to handle.? Even though they're believed to exist and are necessary for magic, only one magus has ever understood the soul.? Souls are only 'things to be investigated' or 'things to be moved into containers'."

Occasionally a very high-tier magus will fuck around with souls - Touko, Ilya, Zouken. Dunno if Shirou qualifies. I suspect tracing souls is a step too far for UBW, but whatever.

On Shinigami: I like Benihiko or Shinso for Shirou. They fit with swordspam and sword sniping respectively. Tousen = Justice, and Gin = EMIYA-level troll, too, so there's a little symmetry there.

That said, Bleach canon sees Shinigami being reincarnated as humans. A human like Shirou may well have been a Shinigami in a past life, if you want to play with an original Zanpakuto build.

 

[Lord Raine]

Boy, does this argument look familiar. I guess we've got a lot of sore losers in the forums, huh?

Shirou could not Trace a Zanpakuto. A Zanpakuto is a manifestation of the user's soul. If Shirou tried to Trace Zangetsu, he's trying to Trace Ichigo's soul. Shirou could never even attempt do that if he did not have Heaven's Feel, and he doesn't, so it's beyond his power to do so.

Even if we assume the absolute best case scenario (which assumes that Shirou can duplicate Reishi, which he can't by the literal definition of what he can do), all Shirou is going to end up with is an Asuchi that happens to look like a specific Zanpakuto. He won't get Zangetsu. He'll just get a blank soul cutter that is shaped like Zangetsu. Unless, of course, he had latent Shinigami powers of his own, in which case he would get a soul cutter that was his and had whatever powers his would have, but is shaped like someone else's.

 

[Prince Charon]

He doesn't need to duplicate reishi. The rest of your argument is reasonable, and may be correct, but he doesn't need to replicate reishi, or chakra, or kanka, or whatever. Scroll up to my post on Nov 3, and read the last paragraph.

EDIT: The point of the above is that the Quincy idea is still valid.

 

[zeebee1]

The Quincy methods would be a great boon for him. Really, any method to get more power would be useful to him. And the Quincy don't actually need power of their own.

 

[Prince Charon]

The Quincy methods would be a great boon for him. Really, any method to get more power would be useful to him. And the Quincy don't actually need power of their own.

I wonder if Saber or Rin would respect him, more. He'll still be a faker, so Gil is unlikely to change his attitude (which is a good thing, really).

His ability to draw mana from the air will be very useful in recharging Saber, no?

Speaking of Servants, would this change Archer, or just cause him to rage at the root for denying him a chance to kill himself (since this Shirou is already divergent from the one who became canon Archer)?

Its very likely that the events leading up to Saber being summoned would be quite different. Even if the canon fight still happens, he's equipped for fighting spirits. Not enough to win, certainly, but enough to delay Lancer long enough the first time for Rin and Archer to catch up (and if he's canon Archer, there's going to be a WFT?! reaction).

If he interacts with Rin more, perhaps she'll tell him about the HGW, when she sees the Command Seals.

 

[Lord Raine]

He doesn't need to duplicate reishi. The rest of your argument is reasonable, and may be correct, but he doesn't need to replicate reishi, or chakra, or kanka, or whatever. Scroll up to my post on Nov 3, and read the last paragraph.

EDIT: The point of the above is that the Quincy idea is still valid.

Steps two and three. He needs to be able to comprehend the manufacturing process (which is beyond him, because that would be making a soul), and three would involve duplicating the composition. Souls, and everything else spiritual in Bleach, are made of spirit particles (reishi). If he cannot duplicate spirit particles, he can't even make an Asuchi, nevermind a Zanpakuto that's filled with a soul.

 

[Prince Charon]

He doesn't need to duplicate reishi.? The rest of your argument is reasonable, and may be correct, but he doesn't need to replicate reishi, or chakra, or kanka, or whatever.? Scroll up to my post on Nov 3, and read the last paragraph.

EDIT: The point of the above is that the Quincy idea is still valid.

Steps two and three. He needs to be able to comprehend the manufacturing process (which is beyond him, because that would be making a soul), and three would involve duplicating the composition. Souls, and everything else spiritual in Bleach, are made of spirit particles (reishi). If he cannot duplicate spirit particles, he can't even make an Asuchi, nevermind a Zanpakuto that's filled with a soul.

OK, so, you did not read the post I pointed out. This does not surprise me.

 

[lethum]

I don't want to get into this argument, but I saw something related, and I felt like I should mention it:

Creating a soul? Easy. Just have sex. Does that mean that the whole mankind can use the Third Magic? Nope. Creating a soul and having the Third are different things.