Nasuverse Zelretch's Hallowe'en Experiments

[Lord Raine]

He doesn't need to duplicate reishi.á The rest of your argument is reasonable, and may be correct, but he doesn't need to replicate reishi, or chakra, or kanka, or whatever.á Scroll up to my post on Nov 3, and read the last paragraph.

EDIT: The point of the above is that the Quincy idea is still valid.

Steps two and three. He needs to be able to comprehend the manufacturing process (which is beyond him, because that would be making a soul), and three would involve duplicating the composition. Souls, and everything else spiritual in Bleach, are made of spirit particles (reishi). If he cannot duplicate spirit particles, he can't even make an Asuchi, nevermind a Zanpakuto that's filled with a soul.

OK, so, you did not read the post I pointed out. This does not surprise me.

Except I did. Reishi is what makes up souls. Unless I'm misremembering my FSN, there is no equivalent that we know of for that, and if there was, you would need First Magic to do anything with it anyway.

If it did reach for a replacement, then you would just end up with semimagical swords that don't have any of the powers their counterparts would because they aren't made from the same materials, and it's the materials (the soul especially) that gives the Zanpakuto their power.

Semimagical swords are a dime a dozen in FSN, especially when Shiro's Trace is involved. He'd be better off just sticking to his normal powers and Tracing a powerful magic sword.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

He doesn't need to duplicate reishi.á The rest of your argument is reasonable, and may be correct, but he doesn't need to replicate reishi, or chakra, or kanka, or whatever.á Scroll up to my post on Nov 3, and read the last paragraph.

EDIT: The point of the above is that the Quincy idea is still valid.

Steps two and three. He needs to be able to comprehend the manufacturing process (which is beyond him, because that would be making a soul), and three would involve duplicating the composition. Souls, and everything else spiritual in Bleach, are made of spirit particles (reishi). If he cannot duplicate spirit particles, he can't even make an Asuchi, nevermind a Zanpakuto that's filled with a soul.

OK, so, you did not read the post I pointed out. This does not surprise me.

Except I did. Reishi is what makes up souls. Unless I'm misremembering my FSN, there is no equivalent that we know of for that, and if there was, you would need First Magic to do anything with it anyway.

If it did reach for a replacement, then you would just end up with semimagical swords that don't have any of the powers their counterparts would because they aren't made from the same materials, and it's the materials (the soul especially) that gives the Zanpakuto their power.

Semimagical swords are a dime a dozen in FSN, especially when Shiro's Trace is involved. He'd be better off just sticking to his normal powers and Tracing a powerful magic sword.

Don't forget the Third Magic, Materialization of the Soul. That would also probably be required to replicate a zanpakuto. Checked the wikia (I'm busy so I ain't rereading a Let's Play for trivia today), and it's about preventing the degradation of a soul. Turning it into a being independent of the body yet still capable of interacting with the material world.

Come to think of it, The HGW is essentially making extremely accurate copies of heroes on the Throne of Heroes IIRC. So I don't think copying a zanpakuto is impossible. No more impossible than summoning a Heroic Spirit at any rate. However, it is likely forever beyond Shirou's abilities because his magic is oriented towards his Reality Marble. If a zanpakuto could be copied, I would expect it to be a group effort and require significant prep time and resources.

I do not think the Halloween costume will grant Shirou the ability to copy a zanpakuto. Maybe, MAYBE it would give him a blueprint. He just doesn't have the raw materials available to pull it off, aka raw souls and sheer power.

 

[shioran toushin]

or the 1st wich arguably is Denial of nothingness.
also IIRC everithing with non Nasu mechanics at the moment that they are introduced to the Nasu (via costumes iirc) they are given Nasu mechanics so he could use them.

 

[nick012000]

Boy, does this argument look familiar. I guess we've got a lot of sore losers in the forums, huh?

Yup. Shirou can almost definitely project a Zanpakuto, and this is supported by the source material of both continuities. You're just too obtuse to admit it.

Shirou could not Trace a Zanpakuto. A Zanpakuto is a manifestation of the user's soul.

And in this case, that user is Shirou, and it would be a manifestation of his soul. That is, a manifestation of Unlimited Blade Works. You know, just like every sword he Projects is, since that's how Unlimited Blade Works works.

If Shirou tried to Trace Zangetsu, he's trying to Trace Ichigo's soul.

Except that he doesn't. He just Projects Zangetsu. If it makes it easier for you to understand, he'd go onto the Hill of Swords, look around until he finds Zangetsu, then pull it out of the ground and Project it into the physical world. Any spiritual connections that would be hooked up to Ichigo's soul would be hooked up to Shirou's soul, because that's how his Projection works.

Shirou could never even attempt do that if he did not have Heaven's Feel, and he doesn't, so it's beyond his power to do so.

Except that he doesn't need to Project Ichigo's entire soul, just Zangetsu.

Even if we assume the absolute best case scenario (which assumes that Shirou can duplicate Reishi, which he can't by the literal definition of what he can do),

Yes, he can. Reishi is soul-stuff. In the Nasuverse, it's called Od, and, like all Magi, Shirou knows how to use it to power his magic.

all Shirou is going to end up with is an Asuchi that happens to look like a specific Zanpakuto. He won't get Zangetsu. He'll just get a blank soul cutter that is shaped like Zangetsu.

No, he'd get a blank soul-cutter that looks like Zangetsu, and then he'd make it into Zangetsu during the stages of "excelling every manufacturing process" and "reproducing the accumulated years".

Unless, of course, he had latent Shinigami powers of his own, in which case he would get a soul cutter that was his and had whatever powers his would have, but is shaped like someone else's.

If Shirou got a Zanpakuto that was truly his, it would almost definitely have the power to assume the forms and powers of other swords, since it'd be the manifestation of Shirou's power, and Shirou's true power is Unlimited Blade Works.

 

[Prince Charon]

Even if we assume the absolute best case scenario (which assumes that Shirou can duplicate Reishi, which he can't by the literal definition of what he can do),

Yes, he can. Reishi is soul-stuff. In the Nasuverse, it's called Od, and, like all Magi, Shirou knows how to use it to power his magic.

Quoted for emphasis. Od is the one thing we know even canon Shirou can use, even at the start.

 

[Ura Mamoru]

As far as I had understood, it isn't that the soul is made of od. It's that an individual's od resides within their soul.

Magic Circuits exist as part of an individual's soul, right? So, if the circuits are a part of the soul, it doesn't quite make sense for the substance of the soul as a whole to be the same material as what flows through its channels. It would be like saying that if you yanked the entirety of Europe off the Earth, that the substance of Europe is water because you picked up the lakes and rivers along with everything else.

A bit of a weird analogy, but it's what came to mind here.

 

[Kibbles]

Why does nearly everything related to Type Moon near-always wind up mired in debate over the finer points of setting rules? I mean, dear Lord, I've seen less quibbling over minutiae in debates in my classes ... and I study Law.

The point that most here seem to be missing is to tell a good story. The concept in this thread is promising, but the debate ... sheesh, just hand-wave it. Story takes precedence over setting rules and as long as it's not going against something utterly basic, screw the rules.

 

[Vanigo]

As far as I had understood, it isn't that the soul is made of od. It's that an individual's od resides within their soul.

Magic Circuits exist as part of an individual's soul, right? So, if the circuits are a part of the soul, it doesn't quite make sense for the substance of the soul as a whole to be the same material as what flows through its channels. It would be like saying that if you yanked the entirety of Europe off the Earth, that the substance of Europe is water because you picked up the lakes and rivers along with everything else.

A bit of a weird analogy, but it's what came to mind here.

So, a zanpakuto isn't made of od, it's made of magic circuits?

 

[TmDagger]

As far as I had understood, it isn't that the soul is made of od. It's that an individual's od resides within their soul.

Magic Circuits exist as part of an individual's soul, right? So, if the circuits are a part of the soul, it doesn't quite make sense for the substance of the soul as a whole to be the same material as what flows through its channels. It would be like saying that if you yanked the entirety of Europe off the Earth, that the substance of Europe is water because you picked up the lakes and rivers along with everything else.

A bit of a weird analogy, but it's what came to mind here.

So, a zanpakuto isn't made of od, it's made of magic circuits?

I think he meant that no matter if it is Bleach or Nasu verse - the stuff the soul is made of remains the same.
So, Reishi would remain Reishi(spiritual particles - the stuff soul and MC's are made of). Reiryoku then would be pretty much the same thing as Od, and Reiatsu - the effect release of raw prana has on the world.
More - as it is canonically possible to 'burn' reishi to create more reiryoku(that's what Quincy do).

 

[Prince Charon]

Why does nearly everything related to Type Moon near-always wind up mired in debate over the finer points of setting rules? I mean, dear Lord, I've seen less quibbling over minutiae in debates in my classes ... and I study Law.

The point that most here seem to be missing is to tell a good story. The concept in this thread is promising, but the debate ... sheesh, just hand-wave it. Story takes precedence over setting rules and as long as it's not going against something utterly basic, screw the rules.

OK, this. Just this.

Thank you, Kibbles.

 

[Ura Mamoru]

Probably because a lot of Nasuverse events revolve around taking those setting rules and ruthlessly exploiting their loopholes?

 

[Prince Charon]

Imagine, if you will, that some of the F/sn cast are made to dress as characters from Nanoha. Imagine that Illya gets a toy bunny, blonde hair dye, and one green contact, for example. Afterwards, she retains the ability to take on her adult form - which looks a lot like Irisviel in skintight clothes. If Shirou is made to crossdress as Nanoha, it won't be a Shirou/Illya story. As <a href='http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Einhalt_Stratos' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Einhalt Stratos</a>, OTOH (or Illya as Einhalt, for that matter, as she has <a href='http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Adult_Mode' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>about the same power</a>), its another matter.

Other thoughts involved Sakura going as Hayate, with some of the others as the Wolkenritter. Shirou as Signum might or might not allow him to Trace Laevatein, afterwards, but its an interesting thought. Due to a slight similarity of names, Rin as Rein occurred to me. Also thought of her or Illya as Shamal. Making Illya Vita could be considered cruel.

Another thought was Shirou as Yuuno, due to the latter's ability to do fairly impressive magic without a Device.

Having Rin dress as <a href='http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Shario_Finieno' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Shari</a> amuses me, what with the 'technophobe becomes technomage' concept. Also, Rin <a href='http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=467174' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>looks</a> <a href='http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=310933' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>cute</a> <a href='http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=278956' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>in</a> <a href='http://prince-charon.deviantart.com/art/Tohsaka-Rin-Motivator-160702862' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>glasses</a>. Anyway, having at least one <a href='http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Device_Meister' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Device Meister</a> like Shari might be necessary for them to make Intelligent Devices of their own.

 

[Garahs]

And then Zelretch introduces the devices to Ruby-chan, and Fuyuki was never the same again...

 

[Elvarein]

Probably because a lot of Nasuverse events revolve around taking those setting rules and ruthlessly exploiting their loopholes?

One day one of the TFF authors is going to snap and write a wonderful story and setting with uber comnplicated rules and get it published just so that he can see it appear on our forums and troll everyone.