Zuko and Pathik

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#1


Zuko: I'm gonna check EVERY Air Temple in the world for the Avatar.

Iroh: *via complicated metaphor* Don't be a dumbass.



Guru Pathik: As per that vision I had as a young man, year 97 of waiting for the Avatar at the Eastern Air Temple.

Okay.

So this is an idea that's been bugging me for a while, and I would prefer to talk about it at more length than usually happens in the Misc. idea thread.

The idea is this: Guru Pathik was waiting for the Avatar at the Eastern Air Temple. Zuko, pre-series, canonically checked all four temples for clues or whatever pretty much first thing after getting exiled. Presumably Pathik just hid when Zuko showed up.

Well what if he didn't. Here's Zuko, who's desperately looking for anything, anything, that will lead him to the Avatar. Here's Pathik, who decided to wait--his whole life--in one place, because he had a vision that the Avatar would need him there, once. And here's Iroh, who would definitely not be adverse to Zuko taking in some wisdom from a guru.

So I submit to you, my friends: what would happen? What kind of spiritual guidance would Pathik provide to Zuko? How would he accept or interpret it? I have my own thoughts, but I want to see what you all come up with.

Some background on my thoughts here, this is a little less on topic:

Okay, so one of my biggest problems with Avatar was how kinda, simple-minded Zuko becoming a good guy was. It was very black-and-white, which I guess makes sense because it's a kid show. But, it was very unsatisfying for me to watch Zuko throw away everything because it was the "right thing to do." I mean, if it was all a big Xanatos Gambit to become an Avatar-endorsed Fire Lord that would be one thing, but it totally wasn't. That just sorta happened.

Also what bothered me was how even Iroh condemned Zuko as having "evil" inside him when he god-damn didn't. I mean, it would be one thing if he liked cutting people too much, that would perhaps be an evil he would have to grapple with, but Zuko's "evil" pretty much boiled down to "hunting down most powerful bender in world to earn daddy's approval." That's not evil.

So I felt like the writers misrepresented the ideas of "good" and "evil" because they set up a scenario that was too complicated for a child's show. My response would be that if you're going to be a source of moral education for children, if you are going to expose them to complex ethical problems, don't misrepresent the solutions as "good vs evil."
 
#2
I'm interested in this idea. Iroh and Pathik would certainly have a lot to talk about. I'm not at all sure that Zuko would benefit from Pathik's wisdom at this stage, though; he was very firmly in the mode of trying to earn his father's approval at this time, and determined to do anything to get it. He would need to do a lot of growing up before he'd be willing to listen, I think, more's the pity.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#3
I think Pathik's sheer determination to achieve this one thing will speak to Zuko's heart and make him take this guy seriously. After throwing that adolescent "you don't understand what it's like for me" at everybody, here's somebody that will make Zuko think "here's somebody that would understand."

Plus... okay. Zuko hears something he's not really ready to hear.

Well. There's still two years' worth of 'pre-series' time left for Zuko to come back for round two. Or three. Or nine.

Pathik and Iroh... I think Pathik might say some things Iroh might find uncomfortable, as well. And I think it would be pretty easy for Iroh to be all, "well I'm... I was called the Dragon of the West" and Pathik would say "the who?" So he could call out Iroh for projecting his own expectations onto Zuko, of trying to get Zuko to do what Iroh thinks is best... which is kind of arrogant.

I guess Pathik is pretty much a "deus ex machina: mentor edition," and there are gurus IRL that run the gamut from self-absorbed media starlet to really profoundly wise. I'm thinking Pathik is much closer to the latter, and what little he did lecture on was the suffering of attachment, which I (arrogantly?) think I understand a little better than the show's writers.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#4
I should note that Zuko enjoyed his actions at the Ember Isle. You know, where he committed mass arson and acted like Azula lite?
 

Tsuki_CB

Well-Known Member
#5
Ember Island was Zuko's long needed venting stage, along with Mai's and Ty Lees. Azula was there for the lulz, mostly.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#6
Evil is evil. No amount of rationalization changes that fact.
 

clockworkchaos

Well-Known Member
#7
daniel_gudman said:
Okay, so one of my biggest problems with Avatar was how kinda, simple-minded Zuko becoming a good guy was. It was very black-and-white, which I guess makes sense because it's a kid show. But, it was very unsatisfying for me to watch Zuko throw away everything because it was the "right thing to do." I mean, if it was all a big Xanatos Gambit to become an Avatar-endorsed Fire Lord that would be one thing, but it totally wasn't. That just sorta happened.
But it's very in fitting with the characters personality. Zuko is all about rushing off and doing things, not thinking them through. His decision to join the avatar, a largely off the cuff decision fit with a good helping of rightousness, is exacly in keeping with his personality.


Also what bothered me was how even Iroh condemned Zuko as having "evil" inside him when he god-damn didn't. I mean, it would be one thing if he liked cutting people too much, that would perhaps be an evil he would have to grapple with, but Zuko's "evil" pretty much boiled down to "hunting down most powerful bender in world to earn daddy's approval." That's not evil.
Anger, attacking villages (Warriors of Kyoshi), threatening people, stealing, deilberatly sabatoging his own country so he could have the glory (Blue Spirit). And, of course, the arson already pointied out.

Zuko had pleny of darkness in him. In season one, his choices could be constructed as mostly out of ignorance. But by season two he knew that the earth kingdom weren't simply barbarians, and that his nation was ruining them, that the entire war was based on lies. And yet, in the end he chose Azula. Because his personal desire to be a prince, to be approved of by his father, was stronger than his desire for rightousness.

Was his choice understandable? Certaintly. Was his choice sympathetic? I would say yes. But, ultimatly, was it hurting others to help himself? Again, yes.

So I felt like the writers misrepresented the ideas of "good" and "evil" because they set up a scenario that was too complicated for a child's show. My response would be that if you're going to be a source of moral education for children, if you are going to expose them to complex ethical problems, don't misrepresent the solutions as "good vs evil."
Helping people engaging int he worse practices of colonization against a civilization that had a real culture and legacy. Or continue a 100 year war.

Yeah, clearly one side isn't good or evil here. :rolleyes:
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#8
clockworkchaos said:
Helping people engaging int he worse practices of colonization against a civilization that had a real culture and legacy. Or continue a 100 year war.

Yeah, clearly one side isn't good or evil here. :rolleyes:
Um, the way you phrased that, both choices are bad. Now, if the first one had been something like 'helping people who are suffering from the worst practices of colonization', it might work better.
 

zerohour

Well-Known Member
#9
To be honest, I'm more interested in the Iroh/Pathik interactions. I'm interested to see how much their wisdom is the same, and the differences between their outlooks.

Bonus points for when Zuko is forced to choose between tea and banana onion juice. (Or whatever Pathik drinks.)
 
#10
zerohour said:
To be honest, I'm more interested in the Iroh/Pathik interactions. I'm interested to see how much their wisdom is the same, and the differences between their outlooks.

Bonus points for when Zuko is forced to choose between tea and banana onion juice. (Or whatever Pathik drinks.)
It is onion-and-banana juice. I'm also interested in the Iroh/Pathik conversation. I don't think we should count Zuko out entirely, but I also don't think he'd be ready to listen to Pathik at this point, as I already said.

Also, I wonder what clearing and opening the chakras would do for a bender who wasn't the Avatar.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#11
zerohour said:
Bonus points for when Zuko is forced to choose between tea and banana onion juice. (Or whatever Pathik drinks.)
"Banana Onion Juice?" The wizened old man said, offering up cups.

"Oh. Uh. Thank you." Iroh said, diplomatically taking the offered cup.

Zuko stared at a for a minute, motionless. After Iroh elbowed him in the side, he finally reached out and took it.

"I make it myself. It strengthens the chi and helps it flow more cleanly." The guru said, raising the cup to his lips.

Trained by politeness, Iroh and Zuko did the same. Iroh's face scrunched up and his eyes crossed, face freezing, as the taste crossed his palate. Fortunately, the guru's eyes were closed as he sipped his own serving. Iroh took the opportunity to fling the rest over his shoulder.

Zuko, on the other hand, took only a tiny sip. He swallowed carefully, considering the taste.

"So? What do you think?" The old man said, carefully lowering the cup to avoid spilling any juice in his beard.

"It was very unique." Iroh prevaricated.

"I've never had anything like it before." Zuko said, considering. He looked down at the cup he was holding like he'd never seen one before, like every other cup had been square-shaped instead of round.

Zuko took another drink. "I kinda like it."

Guru Pathik raised an eyebrow.

Iroh, at Zuko's side, felt betrayed in a way he'd never quite experienced before.
nuclear death frog said:
Also, I wonder what clearing and opening the chakras would do for a bender who wasn't the Avatar.
I think it would probably improve the quality of their bending, if not necessarily the quantity. That is, a firebender probably wouldn't be able to create more or hotter fire, but they would have finer control over the shape and temperature of the fire they could create, and it would feel easier, flow more naturally. But from there increasing quantity would probably be easier.

Also it would definitely break that whole "fire bending comes from passionate anger" thing.
 

sworded

Well-Known Member
#12
nuclear death frog said:
zerohour said:
To be honest, I'm more interested in the Iroh/Pathik interactions.? I'm interested to see how much their wisdom is the same, and the differences between their outlooks.

Bonus points for when Zuko is forced to choose between tea and banana onion juice. (Or whatever Pathik drinks.)
It is onion-and-banana juice. I'm also interested in the Iroh/Pathik conversation. I don't think we should count Zuko out entirely, but I also don't think he'd be ready to listen to Pathik at this point, as I already said.

Also, I wonder what clearing and opening the chakras would do for a bender who wasn't the Avatar.
I think Zuko would listen, but not accept Pathik's advice. Especially if the Guru insists that clearing out the chakras would make Zuko a better bender-a major sore spot for him. Again it would likely take time for Zuko to accept what Pathik's preaching, but it'd be interesting if between Iroh and Pathik's efforts he was able to deal with his emotional bagage and reach for his potential without his understandable rage getting in the way.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#13
I'd like to see some scenes where Iroh out does Pathik. Being older doesn't mean wiser. We don't know that Pathik did terrible things that he regretted. He might have been a guru all of his life. And that would leave a limited perspective.
 
#14
daniel_gudman said:
nuclear death frog said:
Also, I wonder what clearing and opening the chakras would do for a bender who wasn't the Avatar.
I think it would probably improve the quality of their bending, if not necessarily the quantity. That is, a firebender probably wouldn't be able to create more or hotter fire, but they would have finer control over the shape and temperature of the fire they could create, and it would feel easier, flow more naturally. But from there increasing quantity would probably be easier.

Also it would definitely break that whole "fire bending comes from passionate anger" thing.
The first four chakras are the ones that are named for the elements, with each having theoretical importance for the respective benders, and all of them plus the fifth through seventh for the Avatar.

#1: Earth Chakra
Located at the base of the spine
Circulates through survival
Blocked by fear

#2: Water Chakra
Located in the sacrum (not said directly)
Circulates through pleasure
Blocked by guilt

#3: Fire Chakra
Located in the stomach
Circulates through willpower
Blocked by shame

#4: Air Chakra
Located in the heart
Circulates through love
Blocked by grief

Now, one of these being blocked does not cut off bending that element, but at least with the Fire Chakra, it has direct application. And Aang couldn't bend Earth while he was afraid of fast-moving rocks.
 

Nemi

Well-Known Member
#16
Sacrum is below the spine.

Cervical Vertebrae
Thoracic Vertebrae
Lumbar Vertebra--Spinal Cord stops here well before reaching the Sacrum
Sacrum
Coccyx
 
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