Nasuverse A Change of Philosophy
- Thread starter Prince Charon
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And over here I've been under the impression that number and quality of circuits BOTH matter. Like, shitty magic circuits are a 5, and if you have 20 of them, then the system value is 100. But, you can have ultra-high quality circuits that are 20, and if you had 5 of those, that's also 100. So the best would be having 20 high-quality circuits for 400, and the worst would be having 4 shitty circuits for 20. Well, within these arbitrary parameters.
The number of circuits you have is fixed by birth, and normally the only way to add more is implanting a Crest (that's what the hypothetical Philosopher from the OP is definitely trying to circumvent). I gather there's a biological component to circuit quality, but it's also strongly influenced by developmental growth (so Shirou, who has atrophied circuits from incorrect training, is basically crippled). Artificially improving circuit quality might also be a valid exercise in human experimentation for the Dark Philosopher, too.
Personally... okay. Implanting the Crest is compared to transplanting organs. Then, in that metaphor, what about something like immunosuppressing drugs? Could you increase the probability that a soul would accept foreign circuits by crushing it's ability to recognize and discard them as foreign? Would that be something to the effect of, "people with weak connections to their Origin more easily accept foreign circuits?"
What about growing a spare child as a source of extra circuits? The chance of rejection from a sibling would be much lower. What about identical twins? What about that sorcery trait Ore Scales or whatever?
What about a homonculus; they're basically a materialized mass of magic circuits. What if you made a homonculus merely as a vessel to grow up more magic circuits to add to their DNA donor?
What about creating some kind of magically sealed environment, a bubble tank, and sealing 100 people inside with a pregnant woman. Then, you kill those 100 people and trap their souls inside. Would the baby born from that pregnant lady have a soul that's 100 times "denser" than an average modern human, with the magical potential of someone born during the Age of Gods or so?
The number of circuits you have is fixed by birth, and normally the only way to add more is implanting a Crest (that's what the hypothetical Philosopher from the OP is definitely trying to circumvent). I gather there's a biological component to circuit quality, but it's also strongly influenced by developmental growth (so Shirou, who has atrophied circuits from incorrect training, is basically crippled). Artificially improving circuit quality might also be a valid exercise in human experimentation for the Dark Philosopher, too.
Personally... okay. Implanting the Crest is compared to transplanting organs. Then, in that metaphor, what about something like immunosuppressing drugs? Could you increase the probability that a soul would accept foreign circuits by crushing it's ability to recognize and discard them as foreign? Would that be something to the effect of, "people with weak connections to their Origin more easily accept foreign circuits?"
What about growing a spare child as a source of extra circuits? The chance of rejection from a sibling would be much lower. What about identical twins? What about that sorcery trait Ore Scales or whatever?
What about a homonculus; they're basically a materialized mass of magic circuits. What if you made a homonculus merely as a vessel to grow up more magic circuits to add to their DNA donor?
What about creating some kind of magically sealed environment, a bubble tank, and sealing 100 people inside with a pregnant woman. Then, you kill those 100 people and trap their souls inside. Would the baby born from that pregnant lady have a soul that's 100 times "denser" than an average modern human, with the magical potential of someone born during the Age of Gods or so?
It's only a contradiction if you assume that the nature of the soul cannot be affected by the genetics of the person. And, given that in the Nasuverse the soul contains everything a person needs to live (hence why Shirou can survive the total destruction of his body in HF) and is shown (by the actions of Zouken, amongst others) to contain the "blueprint" for the original body (which is IRL determined by genetics), it makes little sense to assume that nature of the soul itself is not genetically determined.
Hhmmm.... if that's the case, it might be another connection to Touko trying to recreate the 'original' human form, the one closest to origin... And the reason she never quite got there is because you'd need a soul too.
She'd either have to create body and soul, or proto-soul, concurrently, or make SUCH a goddamn good body that it forms its own proper soul.... Something which is possible--bodies can heal/regrow their souls. It has limits, though, as seen in how even "immortal" Dead Apostles age.
Anyway, one reason Touko's bodies may be soulles and incomplete, is because while the body is perfect, it can't form a matching soul; because of how spread/watered down human souls are in the modern age. And who works with souls? The Einzberns. They even make humonculi.
Touko and Einzberns might be an interesting match in magic...
She'd either have to create body and soul, or proto-soul, concurrently, or make SUCH a goddamn good body that it forms its own proper soul.... Something which is possible--bodies can heal/regrow their souls. It has limits, though, as seen in how even "immortal" Dead Apostles age.
Anyway, one reason Touko's bodies may be soulles and incomplete, is because while the body is perfect, it can't form a matching soul; because of how spread/watered down human souls are in the modern age. And who works with souls? The Einzberns. They even make humonculi.
Touko and Einzberns might be an interesting match in magic...
True. It might be that his method of enhancing the circuits requires you to get them out, first.
Would be a problem once the victim is off the 'drugs' (potions, spells, whatever), unless their taken off slowly enough to get the body/soul used to the new circuits.
Y'know, it hadn't occurred to me that Sakura could have been better off with Zouken. :huh!:
h43r: I'd like to think Tokiomi wouldn't have done that, but its plausible that some version might. Would be a terrible thing to learn, for a Rin using Second Magic. (This is assuming the circuits are extracted fatally, or that they're extracted, and then she's given to Zouken.)
Much less risk than kidnapping all the donors, and would still disgust and horrify Shirou, with a greater chance of the Philosopher not understanding why his 'masterpiece' is so upset.
OK, that's disturbing, but I could see some mad Philosopher trying that (possibly with fewer numbers, due to the difficulty of disappearing that many people without attracting attention). Doesn't really apply to Shirou, directly, but his transplanted circuits could have been extracted in a way that was fatal to the donors.
Might be an interesting origin for some unexpected Servant.
Would be a problem once the victim is off the 'drugs' (potions, spells, whatever), unless their taken off slowly enough to get the body/soul used to the new circuits.
Y'know, it hadn't occurred to me that Sakura could have been better off with Zouken. :huh!:
h43r: I'd like to think Tokiomi wouldn't have done that, but its plausible that some version might. Would be a terrible thing to learn, for a Rin using Second Magic. (This is assuming the circuits are extracted fatally, or that they're extracted, and then she's given to Zouken.)Much less risk than kidnapping all the donors, and would still disgust and horrify Shirou, with a greater chance of the Philosopher not understanding why his 'masterpiece' is so upset.
OK, that's disturbing, but I could see some mad Philosopher trying that (possibly with fewer numbers, due to the difficulty of disappearing that many people without attracting attention). Doesn't really apply to Shirou, directly, but his transplanted circuits could have been extracted in a way that was fatal to the donors.
Might be an interesting origin for some unexpected Servant.
Prince Charon said:
Y'know, it hadn't occurred to me that Sakura could have been better off with Zouken. :huh!:? h43r: I'd like to think Tokiomi wouldn't have done that, but its plausible that some version might.? Would be a terrible thing to learn, for a Rin using Second Magic. (This is assuming the circuits are extracted fatally, or that they're extracted, and then she's given to Zouken.)
h43r: I'd like to think Tokiomi wouldn't have done that, but its plausible that some version might.? Would be a terrible thing to learn, for a Rin using Second Magic. (This is assuming the circuits are extracted fatally, or that they're extracted, and then she's given to Zouken.)
But, in any case, Tokiomi wouldn't have done it. He actually did care about Sakura, even if he cared more about her well-being as a magus than as a person. There's no way he'd have taken her circuits away from her, because as far as he is concerned, giving her the chance to he a great magus is the most important gift he can bestow on his daughter. He's a complete moron and a terrible father, yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't genuinely love Sakura (and Rin). He just loved them in a very magus-like way, and failed to consider the possibility that there was more to life than just being a great magus (such as having a loving family and a happy life).
Rin seeing a version of her father who had done that would be a horrific shock to her, though. He would likely have died in much the same way as in canon, however (because Kariya would have been even more pissed at him for hurting Aoi's daughter), and thus she might well never find out.
Cherry_lover said:
Prince Charon said:
Y'know, it hadn't occurred to me that Sakura could have been better off with Zouken. :huh!:á h43r: I'd like to think Tokiomi wouldn't have done that, but its plausible that some version might.á Would be a terrible thing to learn, for a Rin using Second Magic. (This is assuming the circuits are extracted fatally, or that they're extracted, and then she's given to Zouken.)
h43r: I'd like to think Tokiomi wouldn't have done that, but its plausible that some version might.á Would be a terrible thing to learn, for a Rin using Second Magic. (This is assuming the circuits are extracted fatally, or that they're extracted, and then she's given to Zouken.)
But, in any case, Tokiomi wouldn't have done it. He actually did care about Sakura, even if he cared more about her well-being as a magus than as a person. There's no way he'd have taken her circuits away from her, because as far as he is concerned, giving her the chance to he a great magus is the most important gift he can bestow on his daughter. He's a complete moron and a terrible father, yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't genuinely love Sakura (and Rin). He just loved them in a very magus-like way, and failed to consider the possibility that there was more to life than just being a great magus (such as having a loving family and a happy life).
Rin seeing a version of her father who had done that would be a horrific shock to her, though. He would likely have died in much the same way as in canon, however (because Kariya would have been even more pissed at him for hurting Aoi's daughter), and thus she might well never find out.
Well, she'd know that she'd got circuits from somewhere, I guess, but in that situation I doubt she'd have ever even met Sakura, because if Tokiomi intends to use her as nothing more than a source of circuits to transport into Rin he's not likely to raise her properly, and he's certainly not going to let Rin get to know her or feel affection for her if he's intending to kill her as a circuit transplant. Also, I'm pretty sure you couldn't transplant someone's entire magic circuit into another without killing the person you're taking the circuit from, either.
It depends on whether Evil!Tokiomi wrote down what he'd done. Likewise, it could be considered normal behavior in a world with much nastier magi. Not a world I'd want to visit, and if, say, one of the Rins from <a href='http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Fanfiction_Forum/index.php?showtopic=20198&hl=' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>With a Little Help from My Selves</a> encountered the Rin of that Earth (assuming she's evil/brainwashed enough not to consider it wrong), I could see her immediately cutting off contact, and warning the others.
Doesn't apply to this thread, though, so in a bit, I'm going to copy the discussion to that thread.
OK, done.
Doesn't apply to this thread, though, so in a bit, I'm going to copy the discussion to that thread.
OK, done.