Nasuverse A Fate/Stay Night idea I had...

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GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
What if someone (possibly Shirou himself) actually ended up having one of the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse as an Eirei?

I discussed this with Fatuous One, and while there's a few problems to be addressed, it could easily be an amusing and even interesting fic in its own right, especially if we use the Megaten version of teh Horsemen...
 
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Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Yah, like the fact that summoning one of them would probably fuck up the grail royally. Maybe on par with summoning a bastard version of Angra Mainyu.

Anyway, more then likely the Rider's could be placed into these classes (as noted by GH).

White Rider - Archer
Red Rider - Saber
Black Rider - Rider
Pale Rider - Assassin

Some of them could probably work in other classes, but these are the easiest to figure.

Of course, since the grail would likely get supremely messed up from summoning one of these guys, the wish would probably be tainted by whatever one of the Rider's got called.
 
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Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Main problem: going after the common perception of the Four Horsmen, i find it hard to think they could be catalogued as heroes.

If F/SN shows one thing it's that your legend establishes who you are as an Eirei.
 
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GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Moshulel said:
Main problem: going after the common perception of the Four Horsmen, i find it hard to think they could be catalogued as heroes.

If F/SN shows one thing it's that your legend establishes who you are as an Eirei.
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Medusa was hardly a hero, you know, but she was chosen as Rider...

If a mythical MONSTER can be an Eirei, I don't see why a Horseman can't. I rest my case.
 
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Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Medusa was hardly a hero, you know, but she was chosen as Rider...
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Not true, Medusa was the "protector" of her sisters, who were simbols of sexuality so she was in a way a hero. Off course the gods got iffy with them and we all know what happened.
 
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AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Moshulel said:
Main problem: going after the common perception of the Four Horsmen, i find it hard to think they could be catalogued as heroes.

If F/SN shows one thing it's that your legend establishes who you are as an Eirei.
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From what I understand it isn't being a hero that allows you to be summoned so much as being legendary, such as in the case of Caster(Medea).
 
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Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
Actually i place Meddea as a Evil Type hero...

She is a hero for aiding Jason and for her most known feat: saving the argonauts from their pursuers, she's an evil type because of the way she does it.
 
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TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
To clear up the whole thing about servants like Caster and Medusa being summoned. The only reason they can be summoned is because the Grail is tainted. Also both Medusa and Medea where not really evil. Medea did everthing she did for love. She was manipulatied by Aphrodite and thats when she did the worst of what she did. She was very loyal to Jason and then the ass betrayed her. As Mosh said, Medusa was a protector for her 2 sisters, but the gods were assholes. They cursed her and played events to get her killed. She actually "NEVER" attacked humans without reason.

Also the Grail CAN'T summon a deity. It was made to summon heroic spirits. One of the four horseman would a deity. And the actual Angra Mainyu wasn't summoned, it was just a normal guy.

Angra Mainyu is a Zoroastrian deity of evil. Einzbern broke the rules by summoning Angra Mainyu as a whole new Servant class known as Avenger. However, the Grail could only summon heroic spirits. Since Angra Mainyu was a deity, it was technically impossible to summon as a servant.

So the Grail summoned a man from the past, who was sacrificed by the villagefolk as Angra Mainyu, the root of all evil, in a ritual to cleanse the villange of evil. Since he was no more than a typical human, he was defeated and returned to the Grail.
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As for the Four horseman idea though, it could still be used. Just the summon wouldn't actually be one of the 4 riders. Doesn't stop them from being insanely powerful though.

Just my 2 cents.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 
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Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
As for the Four horseman idea though, it could still be used. Just the summon wouldn't actually be one of the 4 riders. Doesn't stop them from being insanely powerful though.
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Agreed, it would probably similar to Koujiro (asssassin) a hero created by the faith and hopes of the world. Granted power levels will not be off the charts seeing as not all the world believes in them.
 
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TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
I was under the impression that the power of a servant was based on how many people knew of your legend. That's why Herkules was so much stronger than all the other servants. Also why Saber was so strong. I can't remember where i read it, but that what I also thought. There are alot of people that know of the 4 horseman. But to agrue this would be like arguing religion so......

~The Ecchi Sessha
 
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Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Actually, the reason I think it's possible to summon one of the four Horsemen is because I'm more inclined to think of them as incarnations of certain forces then actual gods. Now, while the forces would be kind of impossible to summon properly (hence, the grail would likely get even MORE fucked up), I think it might be possible under certain circumstances.

And Ecchi, you're half correct. The servant's abilities are affected by their legends. To make an example, you may recall the eight layered shield that Archer uses (I can't recall its name), the reason it got so powerful is because of legends that later got centered around it. The people who heard of it began to believe it was more powerful then it actually was, and so... it was. Its original incarnation was actually REALLY weak.
 
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Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Actually, the reason I think it's possible to summon one of the four Horsemen is because I'm more inclined to think of them as incarnations of certain forces then actual gods. Now, while the forces would be kind of impossible to summon properly (hence, the grail would likely get even MORE fucked up), I think it might be possible under certain circumstances.
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Well the problem here is where are you going to get them from? I doubt the grail has the power to mess with things like that... but then again someone could screw up royally and bring a "surrogate" Rider , just like Assassin, but with much more power.

On the other hand, you could go with the "Highlander" theory where the four horsemen were quite real and the terror they inflicted upon others reflected in the Bible.
 
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Chaos Blade

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
ACtually, rember that it did sumon Heracles, who was himself a Hero as greeks saw that (demigod) and who was later center of worship (so I'd call him a deity) (note do recall there was at least one temlpe dedicated to him)
 
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GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
Chaos Blade said:
ACtually, rember that it did sumon Heracles, who was himself a Hero as greeks saw that (demigod) and who was later center of worship (so I'd call him a deity) (note do recall there was at least one temlpe dedicated to him)
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Oh yeah, I forgot. Heracles ascended to full godhood after his death, when Hera reconciled with him and he was welcomed into Olympus as a God of strength. So he's a demigod in life... who became a full fledged God in death.

So technically he shouldn't be eligible...
 
EagleCeres

EagleCeres

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
GenocideHeart said:
Chaos Blade said:
ACtually, rember that it did sumon Heracles, who was himself a Hero as greeks saw that (demigod) and who was later center of worship (so I'd call him a deity) (note? do recall there was at least one temlpe dedicated to him)
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Oh yeah, I forgot. Heracles ascended to full godhood after his death, when Hera reconciled with him and he was welcomed into Olympus as a God of strength. So he's a demigod in life... who became a full fledged God in death.

So technically he shouldn't be eligible...
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the same can be applied to Gilgamesh, legends decry him son of a goddess... making him a demigod also
 
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TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
EagleCeres said:
GenocideHeart said:
Chaos Blade said:
ACtually, rember that it did sumon Heracles, who was himself a Hero as greeks saw that (demigod) and who was later center of worship (so I'd call him a deity) (noteá do recall there was at least one temlpe dedicated to him)
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, I forgot. Heracles ascended to full godhood after his death, when Hera reconciled with him and he was welcomed into Olympus as a God of strength. So he's a demigod in life... who became a full fledged God in death.

So technically he shouldn't be eligible...
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the same can be applied to Gilgamesh, legends decry him son of a goddess... making him a demigod also
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True, but both of Gilgamesh and Hercules/Hurkules where still part human at one time. Where as Angra Mainyu and the 4 horseman were never human. Hercules was a demi-god that gained a "legend" and then moved on to be a "concept". Gilgamesh gained a "legend" as well. Angra Mainyu and the 4 horseman were always "concepts". It's rather hard to explain...... Just to put it simply... the grail can summon "legends" but not "concepts". To put it this way, a "legend" is created by the human minds. Where as "concepts" form human minds. So you couldn't summon say "Lust" or "Death" but you could summon someone who was "Lust" or "Death" incarnate. If this is confusing sorry.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 
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Chaos Blade

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
so, in theory you could summon Massoch or De Sade?
that's kinda messed up, and we aren't even moving towards the works of one Lovecraft....
 
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Israfel

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
that's kinda messed up, and we aren't even moving towards the works of one Lovecraft....
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After mentioning that you know that someone has to do it, Shirou summons....Cthulu!!! What class he would be I have no clue (maybe berserker) but it would be awesome as hell, well, if you could control it. :sweat:
 
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TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
Israfel said:
that's kinda messed up, and we aren't even moving towards the works of one Lovecraft....
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After mentioning that you know that someone has to do it, Shirou summons....Cthulu!!! What class he would be I have no clue (maybe berserker) but it would be awesome as hell, well, if you could control it. :sweat:
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Well, You couldn't really summon Cthulu. He would belong more to "concepts" class. I was kinda vague with the terms. "Concepts" kinda means "greater than human knowledge/mind" where as "legend" means "something created from human knowledge/mind". I really need to stop using such vague terms. I don't wanna think about the ramifictions of summoning even a "legend" version of Cthulu. I just gonna stay out this thread if possible as i'm just making things more confusing. But, if the idea can be worked, run with it. :p

~The Ecchi Sessha
 
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Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
Actually Ecchi, that was a really good explanation. It may be a bit confusing to those without a fairly good idea of what's with the grail, but it certainly put the concept of it into words. ^_^
 
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Israfel

Well-Known Member
#21
#21
Meh, I got the difference between 'concepts' and 'legends' since you first mentioned it, I was only referencing the Cthulu thing as a joke, I've used such differences (concepts to legends) in a few other things I've done before actually, so I understand what you're talking about, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
 
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TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#22
#22
Israfel said:
Meh, I got the difference between 'concepts' and 'legends' since you first mentioned it, I was only referencing the Cthulu thing as a joke, I've used such differences (concepts to legends) in a few other things I've done before actually, so I understand what you're talking about, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
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Oh, sorry. Didn't realize that. I'm still kinda new to the forums. I'd like to apologize for my post. I just went into "must shut-down the misconception" mode and went all out. :sweat: I'll tone back in the future. :ph43r:

~The Ecchi Sessha
 
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GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#23
#23
Ah, but what makes a legend? Stories made by man. For all we know far, far in the future someone will read old books and/or manga, and think they're legends of people and events that really happened. That's how legends are born, after all...

...which means in a distant enough future, someone might summon Naruto as a Berserker. :snigger: If they did it with Kojiro...
 
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Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#24
#24
...which means in a distant enough future, someone might summon Naruto as a Berserker. asd.gif If they did it with Kojiro...
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Ahem... Not Naruto but a personification of all beliefs and perceptions about him.

So you'll have a blonde ramen addict, stupid or depending on the master smart berserker.

I can already see two noble phantasms:

The Tails Of Kyuubi, where he'll gain more and more power as he gets more and more tails (granted he'll probably kill the master depending on the number of tails), it will also reduce the mana consumption from the master.

The second is a little arguable: Will of thy mind, where he'll be able to push back the effects of the berserker class, turning him into a normal servant? A switcharoo?


By the way Ecchi, nice explanation i think it covers stuff very good.

Also reffering to Gilgamesh, while he was born a demigod he was degraded after he pulled a stunt together with Enkindu. (Just to make things clear about him.)
 
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GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#25
#25
Whee, I be necromonger.

That said, I have a few questions regarding Eirei born from purely legends (ie, never human to begin with, like Kojiro). Are there any rules governing them?
 
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