Naruto Anifics Naruto Discussion

[Matdeception]

Theres been a bit of a talk going on concerning Naruto over at the Anifics forum, and I figured I'd conscript some help from here with pointing out Bakamoto's idiocy and his hard on for all things Uchiha!

Find it here

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[Fatuous One]

Much of that discussion hurt my brain, especially the comments by Spud. I can't really add anything to it though, since not only did I stop reading the manga sometime in the "Rescue Gaara" arc of the time skip, I've done my best to try to purge my knowledge of Naruto in general.

Surprised that Mosh and GH didn't say anything, tho'.

 

[GenocideHeart]

I'm not going to touch that thread with a 10 foot pole atm. I have a headache, and I'd end up flaming from lack of patience.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

Eh, I read it, and the only thing I managed was being utterly dumbfounded at someone claiming Naruto was too stupid to pick up jutsu, and mainly managed what skill he had with them through sheer luck... after they compared him to the 'genius' shinobi... and then claimed that all the genius shinobi could have picked them up faster and easier.

So, basically, what they're saying is that Shikamaru isn't the only lazy ninja, he's just the only one that's honest about it. Otherwise, every one of them would have been far more skilled than they are.

Oh, they're also saying that Sasuke is as dumb as Naruto supposedly is (without the Sharingan at his disposal), because they both managed to complete the tree walking in the same amount of time and learn chidori/rasengan in about the same amount of time. Though, I don't think they realize they're saying it.

After all... if Naruto doesn't pick up techniques as quickly as even the average ninja, then Sasuke has to be equally as #*&^ing stupid.

:lonegunman: DIE, STUPID LOGIC, DIE! :headbanger:

 

[Matdeception]

Actually I think your mashing posts together. I was the one who brought up the amount of time Sasuke and Naruto picked up the Chidori, I was not, however, the one who said Naruto was a bloody moron.

My statement behind this is that, to me, Naruto possesses many attributes that one might consider a 'genius', and I like to think of him as a genius who wasn't nurtured like Sasuke and Neji, ect. Given that Sasuke had a large amount of preperation when it came to the Academy, - Family training prior to the Uchiha massacre, teachers/peers that actually gave a damn/went out of their way to help, where as Naruto had none of this these (By the time Iruka came along and gave a damn, I really don't think Naruto was in any state of mind to trust him.) clearly shows just why Naruto was so far behind once out of the Academy, yet he managed to catch up and keep pace with Sasuke there after.

The person who commented on the Kage Bushin and Naruto being stupid, the rest of the cast being lazy, is a moron who got his post shot down pretty quickly there after.

I won't deny that Naruto isn't a bit of a slacker, and way too Jutsu obsessed he'd rarely ever master them before wanting to move on to the next Jutsu. He's also extremly impatient, too.

 

[Fosfor]

I did't read the thread, but about Naruto being impatient and bit of a slacker in canon, I agree with. However, one can't forget just how inventive and adaptable Naruto is.

The multiple uses of Kage Bunshin (first fight with Zabuza or Orochimaru in Forest of Death come to mind) aside, Naruto proves his adaptability during Chuunin Exam with Naruto Rendan. Sure, Sasuke copied it from Lee, but he had to use Sharingan to do it. Naruto saw it once (Lee) and then saw Sasuke's variation, that though original at the end, was still about 70% rip off from Lee's taijutsu and he came up with his own version practically on the fly.
By the way, Kakashi's comment about how Sasuke is a "genius" because he simply used his bloodlimit in it's most simplistic way - ie copying the move, which really didn't take any effort n his part save activating the sharingan - and Naruto, with his horrible taijutsu managing to not only copy but also came up with his own version really pissed me off. Bakamoto makes me laugh when he calls people like Sasuke or Neji "geniuses" simply because they know how to control the bloodlimit they are born with.

And coming back to Naruto, there is using his Kage Bunshin to use Rasengan, a seemingly simple trick but one that shows just how capable Naruto is about thinking "out of the box". I personally think that the best way for Naruto to learn would be presenting him with obstacles and watching him figure his way by his guts and instinct, since he is pretty much "hands on" type of person. He had shown that he is best thinking on his feet and in a crisis rather than learning anything in ordinary way.

 

[zeebee1]

Neji on the other hand does deserve the title of genius at least. He did figure out the kaiton through observation alone. Seeing as apparently no one else could do that, it seems to speak well of him, and not just his bloodline. Kakashi on the other hand, is only a prodigy. He developed incredibly fast when he was a child, but hit a barrier that he never seemed to pass. Gai isn't a genius, but could curbstomp Kakashi.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

Actually I think your mashing posts together. I was the one who brought up the amount of time Sasuke and Naruto picked up the Chidori, I was not, however, the one who said Naruto was a bloody moron.

No. No mashing/confusing of posts. I was simply illustrating a point, using the examples of tree walking and chidori/rasengan.

If Naruto is an idiot, based on his performance, then Sasuke was right there with him. They seem to think a 'genius shinobi' would have it easier in learning the same jutsu, yet... Naruto kept up with Sasuke. So either Sasuke is a retarded genius, or Naruto is a lot better than they seem to think.

Can't have it both ways, ya know?

The comment about Naruto advancing under Kakashi's training is the one that bugged me the most. Not because it wasn't true, but because Kakashi barely did anything to achieve such 'success.'

Naruto got the equivalent of a two minute lecture, and that allowed him to keep up with Sasuke, after a little help from Sakura. If that isn't proof of his capabilities, considering he was the dead last, then nothing is. It certainly isn't a testament to Kakashi's teaching abilities.

The person who commented on the Kage Bushin and Naruto being stupid, the rest of the cast being lazy, is a moron who got his post shot down pretty quickly there after.

Yeah, but damn if that didn't leave me staring at the screen for about a minute, just blinking in amazement. :sweat:

I won't deny that Naruto isn't a bit of a slacker, and way too Jutsu obsessed he'd rarely ever master them before wanting to move on to the next Jutsu. He's also extremly impatient, too.

Actually, I would love to see a scene where Naruto rigs a jutsu to work, before being told to master it by Jiraiya. After that, he considers mastering it for all of ten seconds, before yelling, "HEY, ERO-SENNIN, THIS THING WORKS! TEACH ME SOMETHING NEW, OR I'LL LET ALL THOSE WOMEN OVER THERE THAT YOU'RE PERVING ON THEM!"

Then, after the beating Jiraiya gets, Naruto gets a new skill to keep him quiet.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

Neji on the other hand does deserve the title of genius at least. He did figure out the kaiton through observation alone. Seeing as apparently no one else could do that, it seems to speak well of him, and not just his bloodline. Kakashi on the other hand, is only a prodigy. He developed incredibly fast when he was a child, but hit a barrier that he never seemed to pass. Gai isn't a genius, but could curbstomp Kakashi.

Well, in all fairness, Gai isn't a good example to compare anyone to, genius or not. I can't see many people in Konoha being able to take him, unless they hold Legend or Hokage status... or maybe Knuckleheaded Loudmouth status.

I just suddenly had this image of Naruto running away from Gai, only to sneak up on him and hit him with the Sennen Goroshi. For some reason, I just think Kakashi made this up specifically for his 'competitions' with Gai.

Sort of a 'you annoy me, I give you massive amounts of pain for my amusement' kind of thing. :rofl:

 

[Fosfor]

Hm, Neji learning the Katen on his own, I've forgotten about it. Point.

About Kakashi hitting the barrier... I don't think so. Not exactly, at least.

In my opinion, the thing responsible for his stunted growth as a ninja is the sharingan. While Kakashi uses it in excellent manner (it is somewhat hinted that he uses it better than most Uchiha ever did - notice the fact that he is famous for his Sharingan, propably got to be that way long before Uchiha massacre and there were stil plenty of Uchiha running around then, I'm not sure but I think I remember Itachi even complimenting his use of Sharingan at some time in the manga and Itachi is pretty much the best Sharingan user to have come from the Uchiha clan ever, at least to our knowledge) but he uses it EVERY time he gets serious.

He has simply grown complacent, too used to the abilities Sharingan grants him and too reliant on defeating opponents with it. Granted, Sharingan is a powerful tool, but in Kakshi's case, it drains chakra like there would be no tommorow, leaving him exhausted and pretty much sitting duck, unable to not only perform a simplest jutsu but not even able to MOVE due to the chakra drain.

 

[zeebee1]

A large part of Kakashi's ability is genetic. He made chuunin at 6. He had to be born very intelligent, and with signifigantly higher physical potential, and chakra than most people. Though the fact that he was born during a war probably helped. If you use the good breeding angle you need to remember that Sakumo had earned legendary status.

 

[Fosfor]

Kakashi making chuunin at six always makes me wince for some reason any time I remember it. "Genius" he might be, super-intelligent kids, I can live with (child geniuses capable of achieving university level knowledge are extremely rare but thay DO happen) so him learning some jutsu and having chakra capacity to perform them at six - somewhat okay but... He was freakig SIX year old. As in small, runty, physcially EXTREMELY weak in every aspect, pure physcial strenght, power, speed, endurance - you name it.

Enchacing physical traits by chakra, okay - but you must have something TO enchance in the first place, which six year old Kakashi simply WOULDN'T have, no matter how much of a genius he might have been. And even if, and that is big if, he could overcome that with chakra, the efffect should have been similar to opening the Celestial Gates - as in ripped muscles, shattered bones, suptured tendons and all that. I'm no biology or anatomy buff, so I can't be sure, but on pure logic alone, six year old body has lots of growing to do and musculature is naturally weaker and more vulnerable. And I doubt he could have passed by ninjutsu or genjutsu alone - the way the exams are shown by Bakamoto, it is obvious that they try to test ninja in EVERY aspect.


They way Kakashi is shown, having super-acurate insight to everything, being (apparently) incredibly handsome and mysterious, being "legendary" before he hit his late teens, learning from Yondaime, creating "most powerful assasination technique aka Chidori" (which is laughable as assasination tool in my opinion simply because it makes to much fucking NOISE to be considered that), becoming chuunin at six, having a sharingan eye ,knowing fucking ONE THOUSAND jutsu (or more), knowing Yodaime's prized techniques (him knowing the Rasengan pissed me off to no end, since I saw it as Naruto's "legacy" from Yondy and his own, unique move that Sasu-gay couldn't copy - I wouldn't be surprised if Kakashi suddenly started to use Hiraishin as well) and so on... Well.. How do I put it... He seems like an SI more so that Sasuke EVER was (and THAT takes some "skill"). Poorly made, uber-god like one. As if someone tried to write an SI fic, with SI having some knowledge of Naruto and being "reborn" as Kakashi and somehow "magically" forgetting about the Kyuubi.

Hmm... Come to think of it, this almost makes me want to write a parody SI fic just like that.

And about ability being genetic, no. Just no. Why? In simplest terms, Talent might be inherited with genes you get, but talent is about ten, maybe twenty percent of the package, rest is skill, expirience and hard work. Sure, talent is CRITICAL, since without it you can't do much, but without proper conditioning and training you won't ammount to anything.

 

[Veld]

On the tree walking discussion, I think Naruto can be considered better than Sasuke. Control is inversely related to Chakra at team 7's young age. Naruto has more than Jonin level Chakra yet he completes the tree walking training at the same time as Sasuke who has, at best, Chunin level Chakra.