Naruto Best and Worst Arc

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#26
Orochimaru's chakra was isolated within the cursed seal and contained by Sasuke's own chakra. It wasn't until Sasuke was suffering from chakra exhaustion that Orochimaru could break free. At least some of the actual cellular changes caused to Sasuke's body by the enzymes from Juugo's bloodline remained however, because Sasuke was still compatible enough with Juugo's cells to receive a life-saving flesh transplant from him later.
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#27
Altered Nova said:
13ry4n said:
I loathed the Sasuke vs Itachi fight because I could not take it seriously with the bullshit genjutsu flying around. "Ha ha! I've defeated you!" "Nu-uh! You were trapped in a illusion!""Grr, then I will make it rain lightening!""Not if I use my everything proof shield!"
I really liked that fight as I read it, but it's kind of ruined in hindsight now that we know Itachi could have ended the fight in five seconds if he wanted to and he only let it drag on for so long because his real goal was to force Orochimaru out of the cursed seal so he could get rid of him and then throw the fight to Sasuke. Also Itachi's sudden convenient case of terminal plotitis disease was quite annoying.
I posit that both Kimimaro and Itachi were afflicted with the same disease in part to continue Sasuke's descent into darkness -- Kimimaro to force Orochimaru to pursue Sasuke for a new host body, and Itachi was simply too powerful to kill openly.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#28
Narutopedia's gone and changed the arcs based on the databooks.

Part 1

Prologue Land of Waves (1-33)
Chuunin Exams (34 - 115)
Konoha Crush (116 - 138)
Search for Tsunade (139 - 171)
Sasuke Recovery Mission (172 - 238)
Kakashi Gaiden (239 - 244)

Part 2

Kazekage Rescue Mission (245 - 281)
Tenchi Bridge Reconnaissance Mission (282 - 310)
Akatsuki Suppression Mission (311 - 342)
Itachi Pursuit Mission (343 - 367)
Tale of Jiraiya the Gallant (368 - 383)
Fated Battle Between Brothers (384 - 412)
Pain's Assault (413 - 453)
Five Kage Summit (454 - 483)
Fourth Shinobi War: Countdown (484 - 516) (Preparation for the war)
Fourth Shinobi War: Confrontation (517 - 559) (The actual war)
Fourth Shinobi War: Climax (560 - 639) (Battles with Kabuto/Tobi/Madara)
Birth of the Ten-Tails' Jinchuuriki (640 - 677)
Kaguya Otsutsuki Strikes (678- 699)

And to throw in my own opinion:

The best arcs of Part 1 and 2 were the Land of Waves and the Tale of Jiraiya the Gallant. The worst arcs of Part 1 and 2 were the Chuunin Exam and the Itachi Pursuit Mission.
 
#29
Altered Nova said:
because Sasuke was still compatible enough with Juugo's cells to receive a life-saving flesh transplant from him later.
It's the reverse: it's because Sasuke was compatible in first place that could happen
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#30
Personally, I liked the Zabuza/Haku part of the Intro arc best... because it felt powerful. Well, on the other hand, that's only compared to the "introducing team seven" stuff that was a pretty damn slow way to start the story. (In retrospect, the manga should have started with Team Seven walking out the Main Gate of Konoha, their first real mission as genin; we get introduced to the team for a few chapters, then they confront a villain, then we only see the rest of Konoha once we're anchored to characters that can focus the narrative).

But I think the "Chuunin Exam" was probably the best arc. It was interesting, it introduced a lot of elements and built the world, it just had a lot of novel stuff going on.

Worst arc...

In my opinion, the Kazakage rescue arc. It wasn't all that bad, exactly, it's just that Kishimoto made a huge mistake that he never recovered from: a retired person and a 15-year-old chuunin defeated an Akatsuki member.

He spent the whole series up to that point building them up as the Kingdom of Monsters -- the previous arc villain Orochimaru fled them because he was afraid they'd gank him! -- and he even made Deidara appropriately into someone who really could threaten an entire village with his flying+bombing combo; but then Sasori was just a pile of medium-strength parental issues that lost.

Like, if it had been his old partner (Orochimaru); do you think Orochimaru would have lost to some old bag and Sakura? No, he would have killed Sakura, used the old lady as a sacrifice to bring Sakura back as his Edo Tensei zombie, and then Orochimaru would use zombie!Sakura to fuck with Sasuke and Naruto's heads for a bunch more chapters.

So when Kishimoto had Sasori lose, he threw away the "untouchability" the Akatsuki had for the two hundred chapters until then, and for no real gain; Sasori lost to the "normal" girl and some old lady introduced five chapters earlier and only ever seen in cameos after that.

That got even worse in the Hidan / Kakuuzu arc; Kakuuzu bragged about butting heads with the First Hokage, and he had the best immortality jutsu in the whole series. Standing next to him, Hidan was literally an unkillable servant of an evil god. Maybe there never actually was an "evil god", but the "unkillable" part was pretty heavy-duty, so it was still fine.

And they lost to Shikamaru. Another "normal" guy. Maybe he was kinda smart, but compared to guys that sweat blood and worked 'till they puked every day, like Lee, like Naruto, like Sasuke; he was a chump. Shikamaru was a speedbump, all he could do was use his shadow jutsu to slow people down, he didn't have anything else.

So the thing was, rather than reinforcing the "invincibility" of the Akatsuki by making them literally All the Monsters, Kishimoto threw it all away as soon as he actually used some of them.

He wrote himself into a corner. That's why it was a ridiculous cavalcade of "man behind the man" antics after Invasion of Pein. He had already used up every single villain he'd prepared, so no matter what he did next, it would be too abrupt, it would come from left field.

And rather than having the balls to start up another genuine ninja war....

Well, I feel like that was the same failing we saw with Itachi. Kishimoto didn't have the balls to make Itachi the kind of inscrutable sociopath that would commit genocide "because test my capacity lol", so he had to come up with that absurd "coup" plot twist.

In conclusion, Kishimoto's biggest problem is that he was incapable of having villains win battles.
 

alucard964

Well-Known Member
#31
uh kakuzu lost to naruto and kakashi not shikamaru. you know rasenshuriken to the back followed by a raikiri to the head? and hidan isn't dead either just dismembered and buried.
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#32
The whole thing about being S-Class... some are more S-Class than others.

Sasori got the worst possible matchup -- Sakura and Granny Chiyo. One could neutralize his poisons while the other could match him in Puppetry. Had it been Kakashi, Sasori would most likely be polishing that body to make a new puppet out of him.

Hidan was an idiot. Sure, he's immortal, but his technique is hardly unbeatable, not mention his ultra-masochist tendencies made him drag things out much longer than it needs to be. Triple-bladed scythe was basically an overgrown scalpel to draw blood, not to hack bitches into itty-bitty pieces. Grossly ineffective. He only got the job because Kakuzu had a bad habit of killing his partners. If just tasting the blood formed an instant bond, he would be a much greater threat than the guy who has to make a ritual circle on the ground and remain inside of it for his ability to work.

Why no one ever just scuffed the line and break the circle, I'll never know.

Kakuzu, eh, I dunno. He claimed to have fought with the First Hokage, but the great thing about being a very old guy is that there's precious few people around to contradict your claims. So, while it could be technically true, in what context is unknown. Highly unlikely he was going toe-to-toe with the First Hokage that we've seen fighting Madar, rewriting maps with each blow -- and if so, MAN! has Kakuzu gotten weak over the years! Seeing how obsessed he is with money, it's just as likely he had a skirmish with the First as a younger man, later name-dropping the incident as hype to sell his services after Hashirama blew up and became The Man. Not to say he isn't dangerous -- Kakuzu is most certainly dangerous -- but not in the same way as Madara or Hashirama.
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
#33
Deidara beat Gaara, showcasing his strength. So it was less galling when he lost to Naruto and Kakashi, and later Sasuke. Sasuke in particular was super-effective against Deidara, his lightning being able to neutralise Deidara's clay (although the Great Snake Escape definitely should have been portrayed better.)

Basically, I would have included a scene where Sasori annihilated Kankuro and a couple of other Jounin just using Hiruko, instead of having the fight go unseen as it did in the manga, and I would have had the concept that Sakura and Chiyo were together a perfect counter for Sasori explicitly stated.

Kakuzu was actually pretty badass, but Naruto should have had to work even harder to hit him with the Rasenshuriken, or have Naruto hit him with the Rasenshuriken before Kakashi ganked his Earth Heart, and have Kakuzu survive it. Then have Kakashi use a Shadow Clone to Raikiri-gank Kakuzu from behind right before Naruto fires it off again.

Shikamaru vs. Hidan... well, Shika should have noted that Hidan was actually a one-trick pony, albeit with a damn good trick, and it should have been a collaborative effort with all of Team 10 to take him down. Like, at one point Hidan actually tags Shikamaru with his scythe, and is about to stab himself when suddenly he stops at the last second and it turns out Ino had followed and got Hidan with a sneak Shintenshin. And then throw Choji in there somewhere, IDW.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#34
You guys are missing daniel_gudman's point. Yes there were plenty of extenuating circumstances to "explain" why the Akatsuki members got killed so easily by people far weaker and less experienced than themselves. But narratively speaking, they don't matter.

Akatsuki was built up as being a team of unstoppable terrifying monsters, the absolute worst of the worst. None of them should have died so early on or so easily. Kishimoto completely ruined all the hype he'd built up around the organization and wasted almost all of his good villains before the story even got close to it's climax by letting them all get offed by people who should be way beneath them.

For crying out loud, Naruto defeated their leader, the supposed second coming of the fucking Sage of Six Paths himself, halfway through Part 2. Kishimoto had basically no established villains left after that, he had to start pulling ridiculous surprise "man behind the man" villains out of his butt to keep the plot going after that. And he had to bend the power scale over his knee and escalate things to near DBZ levels just to keep challenging Naruto after that fight.
 
#35
to be honest, a Man behind the Man was suggested since Kurama started talking about Madara, and Tobi was shown being something else than a moron before Pain's defeat.

Main problem with Akatsuki were Kakuzu&Hidan+power creep: Kakuzu relied too much on his Zeong and didn't show much skill or experience. Hidan was used as a Shikamaru masturbatory tool.
Power Creep also resized them, just A or Oonoki would have annihilated most of them, without calling out the previous Kage.
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#36
Altered Nova said:
You guys are missing daniel_gudman's point. Yes there were plenty of extenuating circumstances to "explain" why the Akatsuki members got killed so easily by people far weaker and less experienced than themselves. But narratively speaking, they don't matter.

Akatsuki was built up as being a team of unstoppable terrifying monsters, the absolute worst of the worst. None of them should have died so early on or so easily. Kishimoto completely ruined all the hype he'd built up around the organization and wasted almost all of his good villains before the story even got close to it's climax by letting them all get offed by people who should be way beneath them.
That might have been the entire point.

One major theme we explored early on was whether or not the ninja should be unfeeling tools of death and destruction and how most struggle with walking that tightrope. Here, we have an organization that's full of these ultimate monsters, but when you get down to it, they're all men. It's the very reason why Sasori lost -- deep down inside of him, through all the robotics and artificialness, he was still a human being that felt and cared. He was distraught to find out that his men were sacrificed by Akatsuki for that technique Itachi and Kisame used to slow down Team Kakashi and Team Guy without his knowing, and he hesitated for a split second when Chiyo suddenly struck him with his mother and father puppets to kill him and save Sakura's life.

In the end, it's really hard to be a monster when you're still a man at the core. Kakuzu and Hidan were probably the only two that could truly be classified as complete monsters, both having thrown away every shred of their humanity for power, and look at what happened to them. Even Orochimaru has shown a slight scrap of remorse/caring in the course of the series, and given that the resurrected Orochimaru isn't exactly the same as the one that Itachi sealed away, he might have even gained more humanity, seeing everything through Anko's perspective.

Altered Nova said:
For crying out loud, Naruto defeated their leader, the supposed second coming of the fucking Sage of Six Paths himself, halfway through Part 2. Kishimoto had basically no established villains left after that, he had to start pulling ridiculous surprise "man behind the man" villains out of his butt to keep the plot going after that. And he had to bend the power scale over his knee and escalate things to near DBZ levels just to keep challenging Naruto after that fight.
"Madara" was pretty much established via Kakashi Gaiden, so that was always looming in the background, even if Akatsuki was wiped out, and that dude was so terrifying, just the mention of his name had people jumping at shadows. And yeah, he really did live up to the hype and then some. Black Zetsu and Kaguya were surprises, but I always had a theory that the Uchiha were being driven down this path by the Tentails' whisperings to reunite its body and chakra, so I was able to accept it without much qualms.
 

13ry4n

Well-Known Member
#37
And yeah, he really did live up to the hype and then some.
One could argue that he didn't so much as live up to the hype but rather went so far that Kishimoto needed a literal Dues Ex Machina to make it possible to beat him.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#38
I wonder sometimes if maybe the Naruto editors shouldn't have looked more at the foreign opinion on the Naruto series, given that it was only something like 3rd or 4th most popular during its run (compared to One Piece, THE giant), but enormous in the West. Some of the more boring arcs might have been that way because of Japanese culture or whatever, but we wouldn't have had so much damn Sasuke if it were up to the West, too!
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#39
seitora said:
I wonder sometimes if maybe the Naruto editors shouldn't have looked more at the foreign opinion on the Naruto series, given that it was only something like 3rd or 4th most popular during its run (compared to One Piece, THE giant), but enormous in the West. Some of the more boring arcs might have been that way because of Japanese culture or whatever, but we wouldn't have had so much damn Sasuke if it were up to the West, too!
We're still a minority compared to the Japanese public, so really, there's not a lot of incentive for them to take Western sensibilities into any sort of consideration, at least on the non-adult front.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#40
I won't argue that the manga readers in Japan would dominate, especially since I would expect most Americans to read online fan-translations instead of the translated Weekly Shonen Jump and actually buying tankobon, but taking into account all revenue streams for the Naruto series (anime, merchandise) I wonder who comes out on top.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#41
I feel like any time a fairy-tale princess gets surprise retconned into being the Final Boss, something has probably gone wrong.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#43
goldenarms said:
If just tasting the blood formed an instant bond, he would be a much greater threat than the guy who has to make a ritual circle on the ground and remain inside of it for his ability to work.

Why no one ever just scuffed the line and break the circle, I'll never know.
That moment when the protagonists break the circle, believing they were safe before Hidan reveals that he was just fucking with them and never needed it in the first place.
 

AJ_Katon

Well-Known Member
#44
knight504 said:
goldenarms said:
If just tasting the blood formed an instant bond, he would be a much greater threat than the guy who has to make a ritual circle on the ground and remain inside of it for his ability to work.

Why no one ever just scuffed the line and break the circle, I'll never know.
That moment when the protagonists break the circle, believing they were safe before Hidan reveals that he was just fucking with them and never needed it in the first place.
A wonderful twist if there ever was one.
 
#45
It's better if Hidan gets angry because the whole ritual is important for his religion, if completely unrelated to the effect
 

nixofcyzerra

Well-Known Member
#46
Ah. Someone (possibly knight504 or Altered Nova) came up with the idea that Hidan's ritual was a corrupted form of Ninshu a week or two ago. So maybe Jashin is a weakened old god who's existence predates Kaguya's (there were probably a few other gods, as someone or something must have warned people not to eat the fruit of the Shinju.)

Hidan is the "successful experiment of the Jashin religion's secret techniques", which grants him immortality (I have no idea why Orochimaru didn't take interest in these guys, seeing as his Orochimaru-Style Body Replacement Technique would allow him to heal any damage he takes so he wouldn't need someone like Kakuzu to stitch him back together.)

So maybe Jashin taught his cult a perversion of Ninshu that shares wounds through a blood link, but he didn't bother to make any of his followers immortal, because, hey, two for the price of one!

But then the cult figured out how to turn Hidan immortal so he could be like their Head Priest, who sends dozens of people to meet Jashin, but will never lay eyes on the god himself.

So maybe the way it could work is that Hidan can kill someone whenever he wants once he's got their blood, but it's only if he's standing in the circle when they die that their soul goes to Jashin. Otherwise they just go to the Pure World.
 

13ry4n

Well-Known Member
#47
Speaking of Gods where the hell does the shinigami fit into this theology?
 

atlas_hugged

Well-Known Member
#48
13ry4n said:
Speaking of Gods where the hell does the shinigami fit into this theology?
I'd imagine it is above everything. The Shinju tree was made from the blood of deceased humans. Since its power ultimately derives from death, it makes sense that death would probably be more powerful than it, and everything that came from it. It's not solid proof though, just suggestive.
 
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