Nasuverse Define the Undefined

[Prince Charon]

The TYPE-MOON Wiki's article on Magic loosely defines the first three of the five Magics, but has very little detail on the Fourth and Fifth (and the First is a bit vague). Notes implies that there is a Sixth Magic, but I have no information on it.

This thread is here for speculation and discussion on the nature of the undefined Magics, and characters and items relating to them.

 

[Amodelsino]

Unfortunately it would be more like making shit up rather than speculation. We just don't really have enough information given by Nasu to get an idea what each magic entails (unless you find 'Blue' to be particularly descriptive).

Well, the First is Denial of Nothingness and apparently uses ether in some part, but that's pretty much it. We already know what the Second and Third do.

fuyuki is a much better compendium of Nasu related knowledge than the Wiki in my opinion. But that's largely because it uses Nasu interviews.

EDIT: Actually, we know that Aoko would get her ass kicked by Caster, so the Fifth can't be anything particularly H4X in combat, or at least not against mages.

 

[Ryuugi]

Unfortunately it would be more like making shit up rather than speculation. We just don't really have enough information given by Nasu to get an idea what each magic entails (unless you find 'Blue' to be particularly descriptive).

Well, the First is Denial of Nothingness and apparently uses ether in some part, but that's pretty much it. We already know what the Second and Third do.

fuyuki is a much better compendium of Nasu related knowledge than the Wiki in my opinion. But that's largely because it uses Nasu interviews.

EDIT: Actually, we know that Aoko would get her ass kicked by Caster, so the Fifth can't be anything particularly H4X in combat, or at least not against mages.

In addition, it was stated that Aoko would lose to any Caster. Not any particular Caster.

 

[daniel_gudman]

I've noticed the Nasuverse is both extremely complicated and extremely well-thought-out.

But, because there aren't any real underlying rules that are ever broken out as first principles, and so much of the content is defined in second or third hand sources like manuals and interviews, and not so much in the canon material, it becomes very, very hard to speculate about anything without accidentally going against obscure canon.

More complications: the games, and the various anime and manga derived from them, aren't necessarily coherent as a whole.

Because a lot of people on this board have hunted down all that material, this board is very astute about pointing out when you've unknowingly broken canon rules about magic.

 

[Shaderic]

Just a quick question... What is the 'Fifth Magic' exactly?

All I really know is that Aoko uses it, and it's called 'Blue'...

 

[Amodelsino]

That's all anyone knows.

Some people have made theories on it being something to do with destruction, what with the indestructible glasses and the fact that she's apparently really good at blowing shit up, but if that were the case I don't see how she would be no match for a Caster class servant.

I think those are simply her normal magecraft abilities. The magic would have to be something else. It should tell us in Mahoyo.

 

[Raven]

? ? *? Name: Unknown.
? ? * Territory: Denial of nothingness.
? ? * User: Died a long time ago, but it is still said that there are 5 Magics.
? ? * Note: In Fate/stay night, Tohsaka comments that Shirou's mastery of projection is so powerful that it's almost like a degraded form of the first magic.

This is from the wiki regarding First Magic. The territory, and the comment about Shirou's projection makes me think that the magic somehow involves creation of matter out of ether, but something about that explanation seems a bit off to me.

 

[Fatuous One]

All I really know is that Aoko uses it, and it's called 'Blue'...

Well, judging from Aoko's conversations with Roa and Dust of Osiris in Actress Again, it's likely that the Fifth has to do with time travel like arai speculated. But it was never outright stated.

At the very least, either the Fourth or the Fifth probably has something to do with time travel.

Wallachia was trying to defeat the Sixth, but failed and went crazy. Other mentions of it make me think it probably has something to do with the end of the world.

so much of the content is defined in second or third hand sources like manuals and interviews, and not so much in the canon material

That's because most of this stuff is really boring unless you're already a big fan of the Nasuverse. In the end, Kinoko is trying to tell an interesting story, and including too much babble about the structure of the universe can be tiresome. Hell, some people find what he does include in the actual game to be too much.



wait, why am i even posting here

 

[Prince Charon]

Unfortunately it would be more like making shit up rather than speculation. We just don't really have enough information given by Nasu to get an idea what each magic entails (unless you find 'Blue' to be particularly descriptive).

Well, yes, its making stuff up, pretty much. This is TFF, after all. I'm not expecting canon, just something that could be used in fanfic, that is consistent, and doesn't directly contradict the Rules that we know... or at least, the ones that even True Magic can't break.

 

[nick012000]

Personally, it sounds sort of like the First Magic is, basically, "Let there be light."

You imagine something, then call it into existance.

EDIT: Also, scroll down to "heroic spirit" here:

Restoration of the soul itself (as opposed to bringing a "dead" person back to life through the use of time travel, parallel worlds, and denial of nothingness; the result is still the same but the process and operating principles are different) as a being that's part of the current world time line is only possible through the completed materialization of the soul.

Apparently the First Magic can restore the dead back to life, probably through simply creating a new copy of the person as they were immediately before they died.

 

[Shaderic]

Hey there, question.

How does Kiritsugu's Innate Time Manipulation thing work?

I mean, I've heard about it, and it sounds darn cool if it is what I think it is, but I haven't actualy read what it does.

 

[Avider]

This should give a pretty good idea of what it does:

For example, when he fought Kayneth just then, Kirtsugu "sped up" his blood flow, haemoglobin metabolism, and muscle movement all at the same time. All thatÆs left is to use his quick reaction time to dodge the attack after he easily predicted the track the mercury whips would take. Kiritsugu is capable of accomplishing physical feats impossible for ordinary humans after he accelerated the time inside his body.

The time control this time is the exact opposite of the accelerated physical speed back then. Kiritsugu slowed his biological processes to one third of its normal speed. His breathing lagged, and his heart beat slowed and stagnated until he could barely feel it himself. Also, due to his metabolism having stopped, his body temperature declined quickly, cooling down until it is not much different from the temperature of the outside air.

 

[Amodelsino]

Didn't he attempt to use it against Gilgamesh offensively though? Or was that just speeding up his reactions?

 

[nick012000]

Didn't he attempt to use it against Gilgamesh offensively though? Or was that just speeding up his reactions?

I think it was a Reality Marble, so while he could use it externally, it'd be crushed by The World soon enough if he did.

 

[Shaderic]

... No.

 

[nick012000]

... No.

Hmm? I distinctly remember reading somewhere on either Fuyuki Wiki or Type Moon Wiki that Kotomine's time control was a Reality Marble. Reality Marbles expressed externally are crushed by the World for contravening natural laws. Reality Marbles expressed inside the caster's body, though, last indefinitely.

 

[Shaderic]

1)Link

2)I've only just heard about how Kiritsugu's time thing worked, and that sound a lot more like very specific fine tuning of bodily functions to achieve the effect, rather than a reality marble.

 

[firestorm]

Sounds more like reinforcement applied quite well then anything else. Rin did the same thing in the prologue IIRC.

 

[Shaderic]

Well, I just had a long chat with a friend, and here was his theory of what Blue magic was:

'Absolute Destruction'.

The destruction of matter and energy.

This was based mostly on his knowledge of the facts that True Magic is impossible, and Aoko was also known as the mage of destruction.

Plausible?

 

[Ryuugi]

Well, I just had a long chat with a friend, and here was his theory of what Blue magic was:

'Absolute Destruction'.

The destruction of matter and energy.

This was based mostly on his knowledge of the facts that True Magic is impossible, and Aoko was also known as the mage of destruction.

Plausible?

Don't really line up with the 'would be beaten by any Caster' thing.

 

[Amodelsino]

Didn't I already mention that theory and say why it made no sense?

EDIT: Yep, second post.

 

[Shaderic]

Hey, quick question. Does anyone remember what day Fate/Stay Night starts on?

I think it's the end of January/beginning of february, but I can't remember...