Nasuverse FSN RPG
- Thread starter Avider
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Shinji is at least likable when he wants to be; though, he does spend most of his time as a massive asshole. Rin...well, I nearly cheered when I saw what happened to her in the fate route.
Besides, chances are Shinji will remain a villain (which means you can beat the crap out of him), while Rin probably ends up being a side kick again. This displeases me.
EDIT: it is also a game based on an anime, and looks to be focusing more on fanservice (Saber's dress, the red head, Lancer).
Besides, chances are Shinji will remain a villain (which means you can beat the crap out of him), while Rin probably ends up being a side kick again. This displeases me.
EDIT: it is also a game based on an anime, and looks to be focusing more on fanservice (Saber's dress, the red head, Lancer).
I dont know about you specifically, so it isn't really targeted at you, but it is kind of biased for the record in that some people will say that they hate Shinji for that reason, but then they will talk about how awesome Shiki was in Tsukihime, conveniently forgetting that he does rape multiple characters in various circumstances.
Just saying.
Just saying.
The difference is in actually explaining a reason. I'm just saying that numerous people would simply state they hate Shinji for that reason, but then harp on and on about how awesome Shiki is.
Besides, Shinji is not really a "villain" in the first place, just a guy with more power then he knows what to do with or should ever have.
Besides, Shinji is not really a "villain" in the first place, just a guy with more power then he knows what to do with or should ever have.
Shiakou said:
Probably because Shiki also willingly gave his life for said multiple characters in various circumstances, and risked his life for them in many more.
It's the difference between a deeply flawed hero and a designated villain.
To forget this crucial difference is an even bigger bias.
Just saying.
It's the difference between a deeply flawed hero and a designated villain.
To forget this crucial difference is an even bigger bias.Just saying.
Same also applies to Gilgamesh...and actually Illya by association (ordering Berserker to rape Saber). So....yes, I draw issues with all of these characters.
EDIT: though, I despise Gilgamesh the most of all.
knight_of_ni said:
Shiakou said:
Probably because Shiki also willingly gave his life for said multiple characters in various circumstances, and risked his life for them in many more.
It's the difference between a deeply flawed hero and a designated villain. To forget this crucial difference is an even bigger bias.
Just saying.
It's the difference between a deeply flawed hero and a designated villain.
To forget this crucial difference is an even bigger bias.Just saying.
Same also applies to Gilgamesh...and actually Illya by association (ordering Berserker to rape Saber). So....yes, I draw issues with all of these characters.
EDIT: though, I despise Gilgamesh the most of all.
Ciel was implied to have raped a lot of people while she was possessed by Roa. (And before you excuse it by saying she's possessed, there's no difference between that and Shiki being taken over by Nanaya.)
Sakura raped Rin in one Bad End.
Do you have issues with these characters too?
Even without the rape, he's arrogant, petty, backstabbing, and sadistic. Had he ended up with no real power in a "normal" setting, he'd be that sneaky little brat who made up stories about the people he hated. Yes, he has the potential to become a good guy despite all of that, but he is still a villain, aka a bad guy.
*sigh*
I think you missed the point of the post.
EDIT:I know I won't be able to convince you of certain things, so I'll just say this: the point was that a character can be likable even if they are a rapist, it just tends to be a lot harder for me, because I will remember it. There are some characters I do hate for being a rapist, but in some cases, I also have other issues with them. That was the point.
And as for the cases presented, the exceptions tend to come down to a certain view points, or something I am unwilling to argue over because I know you will not budge.
I think you missed the point of the post.
EDIT:I know I won't be able to convince you of certain things, so I'll just say this: the point was that a character can be likable even if they are a rapist, it just tends to be a lot harder for me, because I will remember it. There are some characters I do hate for being a rapist, but in some cases, I also have other issues with them. That was the point.
And as for the cases presented, the exceptions tend to come down to a certain view points, or something I am unwilling to argue over because I know you will not budge.
I think you need to rewrite your post. Because the way it reads right now, it's saying "I don't like characters who are/can be/may have been rapists no matter the reason or whatever good they might have done."
Take note, both the second quote and it's response in my previous post have nothing to do with you and are addressed to siegfried, whom according to TFF tradition, is to be blamed for every single wrongdoing on this forum.
Take note, both the second quote and it's response in my previous post have nothing to do with you and are addressed to siegfried, whom according to TFF tradition, is to be blamed for every single wrongdoing on this forum.
:unsure:
You guys sure take things way too literally.
In other news, the website is up.
http://fate-extra.jp/
You guys sure take things way too literally.
In other news, the website is up.
http://fate-extra.jp/
:blink: I'm beginning to wonder if I want anything to do with these games (haven't played them, yet). Also, Are we using the same definition of 'rape'? As in, she forced him to have sex with her?
In that case, it would be Nanya and Roa who were the rapists, not Shiki and Ciel. Isn't Nanya part of Shiki, though, while Roa is an outside entity?
Was she psycho from the corrupt Grail, at the time, or having an unusual yandere moment?
In that case, it would be Nanya and Roa who were the rapists, not Shiki and Ciel. Isn't Nanya part of Shiki, though, while Roa is an outside entity?
Was she psycho from the corrupt Grail, at the time, or having an unusual yandere moment?
Been a while since I went though Kagetsu Tohya, but IIRC, short answer, yes.
Long answer, she had taken control of his mind for benevolent purposes (she was trying to stabilize his mind while his body recovered from being hit by a truck). Unfortunately, between the strain of trying to control a mind with multiple personalities, and her own mana starvation, Len was kinda stressed. So, having nigh-complete control of Shiki's mind at the time, she basically paralyzed him, then . . . acquired. . . some mana, and then wiped his memories of the event. Shiki had no idea what hit him.
Note: Len is commonly considered to be a kind of succubus. I don't think her raping people should come as a surprise all things considered.
Roa was part of Ciel at the time. The only difference between Roa/Ciel and Nanaya/Shiki for the purposes of this discussion is that Roa and Ciel were separated upon "death" and only upon death. Before then, Roa/Ciel was a single person having two personalities. Same with Roa/SHIKI basically; the two personalities were individually distinct but linked with and influenced each other.
To take it from another direction, how would a court of law find a criminal who can show that he was suffering from multiple personalities and that said personalities were beyond the main personality's control? Most likely, he'd classified as clinically insane at the time of the crime, and thus not held responsible for said crime.
What Avider said; she was basically on a high from the power and suffering a breakdown after years of abuse.
Long answer, she had taken control of his mind for benevolent purposes (she was trying to stabilize his mind while his body recovered from being hit by a truck). Unfortunately, between the strain of trying to control a mind with multiple personalities, and her own mana starvation, Len was kinda stressed. So, having nigh-complete control of Shiki's mind at the time, she basically paralyzed him, then . . . acquired. . . some mana, and then wiped his memories of the event. Shiki had no idea what hit him.
Note: Len is commonly considered to be a kind of succubus. I don't think her raping people should come as a surprise all things considered.
Roa was part of Ciel at the time. The only difference between Roa/Ciel and Nanaya/Shiki for the purposes of this discussion is that Roa and Ciel were separated upon "death" and only upon death. Before then, Roa/Ciel was a single person having two personalities. Same with Roa/SHIKI basically; the two personalities were individually distinct but linked with and influenced each other.
To take it from another direction, how would a court of law find a criminal who can show that he was suffering from multiple personalities and that said personalities were beyond the main personality's control? Most likely, he'd classified as clinically insane at the time of the crime, and thus not held responsible for said crime.
What Avider said; she was basically on a high from the power and suffering a breakdown after years of abuse.
OK, I think we can say that Len had somewhat diminished responsibility for her actions, and that Shiki, Ciel, and Sakura had even further diminished responsibility.
Also, I think I need to look up Roa, because Shiakou's description is odd.
EDIT: As far as I can tell, Roa, Ciel, and SHIKI all have separate souls, though Roa's was altered long ago. That is rather different from Nanya and Shiki, who seem to share the same soul.
Also, I think I need to look up Roa, because Shiakou's description is odd.
EDIT: As far as I can tell, Roa, Ciel, and SHIKI all have separate souls, though Roa's was altered long ago. That is rather different from Nanya and Shiki, who seem to share the same soul.
Really? Far as I can tell, it's the same soul (keep in mind that Nasuverse souls can be copied, split, and stored as information).
Roa was reincarnated for the seventeenth time as Elesia aka Ciel. In other words, Roa became Ciel, and Ciel/Roa was one being from the time she was born. For some reason, Arcueid was able to "kill" the Roa personality without killing the Ciel personality or the body they shared. (My theory is that the soul was split, though that's only a pet theory and nothing more.) However, both Ciel and Roa are still considered to be the same being; this is the entire reason why Ciel could not die so long as Roa was alive as they were literally regarded by the world as the same being.
Roa was then reincarnated for the eighteenth time as SHIKI Tohno.
In both cases Roa/reincarnation was one being from the moment of birth. The reason for the conflicting personalities is that the reincarnated being has some time to experience the world for his/herself before the Roa personality begins taking over. Note that the possession does not happen all at once, isn't complete, and isn't always successful; Roa/SHIKI could not perform magic despite being one of the greatest mages to live because he doesn't remember how to yet by the time of Tsukihime (the manga Roa/SHIKI did not remember how to use magic during his first fight but remembered how to use magic by his second fight with Shiki.)
In short, Roa's reincarnations are more akin to an amnesiac gradually regaining his memories than being possessed by an outside force. The amnesiac might have a totally different personality from his original or previous one, and might even be horrified by what he remembers from his past. The amnesiac can also, with enough willpower, decide to change his life from how he used to live, hence SHIKI basically kicking Roa's personality to the curb in the Far Side Routes.
BTW, all beings are reincarnated in the Nasuverse. In most cases the soul will be destroyed then remade anew (kinda like Fullmetal Alchemist's Alchemy), but Roa made it so that his soul was relatively intact through each reincarnation and was conscious despite being dead. However, Roa's soul was still losing coherence with each reincarnation. It's possible that, with Arcueid killing him over and over again, there might have been eventually a reincarnation who only barely remembered his life as Roa and thus lived a normal, mundane life.
Roa was reincarnated for the seventeenth time as Elesia aka Ciel. In other words, Roa became Ciel, and Ciel/Roa was one being from the time she was born. For some reason, Arcueid was able to "kill" the Roa personality without killing the Ciel personality or the body they shared. (My theory is that the soul was split, though that's only a pet theory and nothing more.) However, both Ciel and Roa are still considered to be the same being; this is the entire reason why Ciel could not die so long as Roa was alive as they were literally regarded by the world as the same being.
Roa was then reincarnated for the eighteenth time as SHIKI Tohno.
In both cases Roa/reincarnation was one being from the moment of birth. The reason for the conflicting personalities is that the reincarnated being has some time to experience the world for his/herself before the Roa personality begins taking over. Note that the possession does not happen all at once, isn't complete, and isn't always successful; Roa/SHIKI could not perform magic despite being one of the greatest mages to live because he doesn't remember how to yet by the time of Tsukihime (the manga Roa/SHIKI did not remember how to use magic during his first fight but remembered how to use magic by his second fight with Shiki.)
In short, Roa's reincarnations are more akin to an amnesiac gradually regaining his memories than being possessed by an outside force. The amnesiac might have a totally different personality from his original or previous one, and might even be horrified by what he remembers from his past. The amnesiac can also, with enough willpower, decide to change his life from how he used to live, hence SHIKI basically kicking Roa's personality to the curb in the Far Side Routes.
BTW, all beings are reincarnated in the Nasuverse. In most cases the soul will be destroyed then remade anew (kinda like Fullmetal Alchemist's Alchemy), but Roa made it so that his soul was relatively intact through each reincarnation and was conscious despite being dead. However, Roa's soul was still losing coherence with each reincarnation. It's possible that, with Arcueid killing him over and over again, there might have been eventually a reincarnation who only barely remembered his life as Roa and thus lived a normal, mundane life.