Nasuverse Gilgamesh Stats Question
- Thread starter AbyssalDaemon
- Start date
With as much Charisma as Gil has, everyone in the room will automatically pay attention to him, just because he's there. It's a curse, because with Charisma that high, people will follow him whether he likes it or not.
He was born to rule. He can't not rule.
It's a curse like that. It just so happens, it's a curse he likes.
Compare how Heracles' God Hand is considered a "divine curse". It's a beneficial curse, but it's still a curse.
He was born to rule. He can't not rule.
It's a curse like that. It just so happens, it's a curse he likes.
Compare how Heracles' God Hand is considered a "divine curse". It's a beneficial curse, but it's still a curse.
Let's put things in perspective.
Iskander was so charismatic that many soldiers pledged eternal loyalty to him - even after death. He was respected even by his enemies and loved by his people, and even the peoples he conquered grew to appreciate him.
Gilgamesh was such an arrogant fuckass that he was almost negating his CHA bonus. However, keep in mind that Enkidu - a man of equal strength to Gilgamesh, created by the gods specifically to put Gil in his place - ended up swearing his friendship and loyalty to Gil. Even the gods (Ishtar, to be specific) wanted to be with Gil, and those that didn't, they at least respected him greatly.
Even now, those that are enemies to Gilgamesh stand in awe of him.
Iskander was so charismatic that many soldiers pledged eternal loyalty to him - even after death. He was respected even by his enemies and loved by his people, and even the peoples he conquered grew to appreciate him.
Gilgamesh was such an arrogant fuckass that he was almost negating his CHA bonus. However, keep in mind that Enkidu - a man of equal strength to Gilgamesh, created by the gods specifically to put Gil in his place - ended up swearing his friendship and loyalty to Gil. Even the gods (Ishtar, to be specific) wanted to be with Gil, and those that didn't, they at least respected him greatly.
Even now, those that are enemies to Gilgamesh stand in awe of him.
Obviously Charisma doesn't work on Shirou then if that's what it's supposed to do.
Come to think of it I don't remember anyone in F/SN seeing Gil as anything but a threat or a chess piece. Certainly none of the characters were in awe of him (maybe wary of his abilities, but certainly not awe of the man himself).
Come to think of it I don't remember anyone in F/SN seeing Gil as anything but a threat or a chess piece. Certainly none of the characters were in awe of him (maybe wary of his abilities, but certainly not awe of the man himself).
Huh? That's wrong. Even Shirou, when fighting Gilgamesh, is damn near scared shitless at fighting such an incredible being. Even Saber respects Gilgamesh as a worthy opponent to duel with, despite his being such an ass.
Pretty much the only ones who don't treat him with at least some respect are Shinji (utter stupidity) and Rin (Rin).
Pretty much the only ones who don't treat him with at least some respect are Shinji (utter stupidity) and Rin (Rin).
None of that is awe. There is a massive difference in respecting someones abilities and being in awe of the person themselves. If they were actually in awe of Gil, they wouldn't be willing to fight him. Awe itself is a term created to express wonder on a level beyond what can be expressed towards anything mortal.
The word itself was used as a means to describe the experience when someone was in the presence of God (not in a church, actually physically in front an all powerful being beyond comprehension).
The word itself was used as a means to describe the experience when someone was in the presence of God (not in a church, actually physically in front an all powerful being beyond comprehension).
It's not that so much as slight annoyance at constantly seeing words being used incorrectly (leading to people believing words like terror and awe are interchangeable with fear and wonder) and feeling that Gil never really inspired any of that in the characters.
Charisma by it's very nature implies a quality of the person themselves, but nowhere in Fate or UBW was anyone naturally affected by Gil's presence like that, just his abilities. Arturia respected his abilities in battle, not him. Shirou was amazed and to a degree fearful of GoB, Gilgamesh didn't inspire those emotions by his presence, attitude or words.
This is something I've noticed is prevalent with Heroic Spirits, in that apart from the physical ones, the stats don't actually correspond to what they are supposed to. Even a Charisma of D is superhuman, yet none of the characters display any sort of superhuman ability in that regard. Even someone with a Charisma of C should be Lelouch vi Britannia times a hundred, yet they don't inspire anything special in the people around them by their attitudes and words.
Charisma by it's very nature implies a quality of the person themselves, but nowhere in Fate or UBW was anyone naturally affected by Gil's presence like that, just his abilities. Arturia respected his abilities in battle, not him. Shirou was amazed and to a degree fearful of GoB, Gilgamesh didn't inspire those emotions by his presence, attitude or words.
This is something I've noticed is prevalent with Heroic Spirits, in that apart from the physical ones, the stats don't actually correspond to what they are supposed to. Even a Charisma of D is superhuman, yet none of the characters display any sort of superhuman ability in that regard. Even someone with a Charisma of C should be Lelouch vi Britannia times a hundred, yet they don't inspire anything special in the people around them by their attitudes and words.
Charisma is for the most part a subconscious trait. The people who use it consciously are usually sociopaths (or specifically trained to do so). For the most part, charisma itself is the natural inclination in speech and attitude that influences people around you to see you point of view.
Which is why I find the idea of superhuman charisma to be ridiculous. It's not a clearly quantifiable measure like strength or speed, and it's not a magical quality that makes people do what you say, but rather a psychological one. You can't have superhuman charisma because it's an entirely human ability that only works because of the nature of the human psyche. Basically, what Gil does cannot be classified as charisma, because people (apparently) follow him despite his attitude rather than because of it.
Which is why I find the idea of superhuman charisma to be ridiculous. It's not a clearly quantifiable measure like strength or speed, and it's not a magical quality that makes people do what you say, but rather a psychological one. You can't have superhuman charisma because it's an entirely human ability that only works because of the nature of the human psyche. Basically, what Gil does cannot be classified as charisma, because people (apparently) follow him despite his attitude rather than because of it.
Ugh. That's about as far from charisma as something can actually be. That's basically the equivalent of calling Sorcery Psychology. If that is what the stat entails they should have called it charm, influence or basically anything but charisma.
It really annoys me when writers don't actually make sure what something means before they use it. It's as bad as pseudoscience in sci-fi.
It really annoys me when writers don't actually make sure what something means before they use it. It's as bad as pseudoscience in sci-fi.
No. It doesn't. Charisma itself is essentially the ability for someone to influence other people using their words and attitude. There is nothing mystical about it, just psychological. If someone acts like a total douche bag and everyone acts like he's giving them gold and chocolate due to a mystical quality that the person possesses, then it isn't charisma in any way shape or form.
cha�ris�ma (k?-r?z'm?) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. cha�ris�ma�ta (-m?-t?)
1.
1. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.
2. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.
2. Christianity An extraordinary power, such as the ability to perform miracles, granted by the Holy Spirit.
[Greek kharisma, divine favor, from kharizesthai, to favor, from kharis, favor; see gher-2 in Indo-European roots.]
n. pl. cha�ris�ma�ta (-m?-t?)
1.
1. A rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm.
2. Personal magnetism or charm: a television news program famed for the charisma of its anchors.
2. Christianity An extraordinary power, such as the ability to perform miracles, granted by the Holy Spirit.
[Greek kharisma, divine favor, from kharizesthai, to favor, from kharis, favor; see gher-2 in Indo-European roots.]
Well done. You've proven you have the ability to read and/or use a search engine.
A standard definition from a dictionary written by people who are essentially no more knowledgeable about the things they are referring to than the average man on the street isn't going to go into great detail.
Charisma is an entirely psychological quality (or rather collection of qualities) that has been studied, and this doesn't contradict that. It (as with most dictionary definitions) doesn't really say anything at all.
But it's not going to change anything anyway, so you can believe charisma is the scientific name for moon cheese if you want to.
A standard definition from a dictionary written by people who are essentially no more knowledgeable about the things they are referring to than the average man on the street isn't going to go into great detail.
Charisma is an entirely psychological quality (or rather collection of qualities) that has been studied, and this doesn't contradict that. It (as with most dictionary definitions) doesn't really say anything at all.
But it's not going to change anything anyway, so you can believe charisma is the scientific name for moon cheese if you want to.
Y'know, I'm starting to believe that Amodelsino doesn't understand what the word "Dictionary" means.
I'm always glad to help a fellow person out, though.
I'm always glad to help a fellow person out, though.
F/S-N is an RPG, and Charisma has been a part of those since D&D came out. It's the accepted definition in at least games and words and definitions do evolve over time.
Slight tangent from the current discussion, but could Gil's spirit have been corrupted from the substance in the corrupted grail? Or was it only the worm things that could do that?
Slight tangent from the current discussion, but could Gil's spirit have been corrupted from the substance in the corrupted grail? Or was it only the worm things that could do that?
