Given the Choice..(Persona 3)

[DrTempo]

Like it says, this idea explores what happened after the "Bad Ending" where Minato killed Ryoji.

The actual story starts after Graduation Day. The SEES members are invited to a strange castle owned by a man named Kontonto Shiteiru(which means in Japanese when out together as one phrase "to be chaotic.") They don't know why they're there or anything. The group is soon seperated, with Minato left at the entrance.

Minato is surrounded by Shadows, and someone(Kontonto) throws him an Evoker and a rusty sword, and tells him to "reclaim what is yours." Minato remembers how to use Persona, and manages to best the Shadows(his Persona is Orpheus.)
The voice tells him to fight his way through the castle, and regain what he has lost.

As Minato does this(Off Topic: If this were a game, it'd work like the more recent Castlevania titles.), he begins to remember the events that led to him killied Ryoji. When he meets Kontonto, Kontonto has this to say about Minato's choice:
"Given the choice...Whether to live in ignorance of what seems to be the end of all, but in happiness...Or to challenge the Fates for another throw, a better throw, against one's destiny? What was one boy to do? But ...does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars. Yet, you chose to accept the end...How shameful of you...Come...and undo the damage that your choice has made."

Minato continues his journey, and ends up fighting the SEES members, whom are not happy at Minato's choice. Minato wins these battles, and eventually meets Kontonto in his throne room.

Kontonto reveals he is the incarnation of Chaos: the being from which Nyx, Tartarus...everything was born. (Refering to the Greek concept of Chaos here.) Kontonto offers Minato a choice..to fight him, and gain control over his fate and restore balance to the world, or accept the Fall. Minato decides to fight. Kontonto uses Chaos as a Persona, but Minato pulls off a miracle by barely surviving. Kontonto then gives Minato Chaos to use to stop Nyx. Minato faces Nyx, and finally beats her without giving up his life.

In an alternate ending, Kontonto wins. The man expresses his sorrow that the one person who could bring balance back to the world is no more. Kontonto then decides another must be chosen...

Thoughts?

 

[armedlord]

...You know...if I recall, Graduation Day was in April or march or whatever for the game...odd as it was for me to try to figure out just why Graduation was way past New Years and all that, but whatever.

The Day that the MC of Persona 3 can get the choice to kill Ryoji is on December...the last of December.

The Fall and the coming of Nyx starts on January 30th.

The Fall consists of killing everyone off the planet.

...Anyone else see some kind of dead panned expression I have at this moment from this idea?

 

[Croaker]

Thoughts:

Yes, let's kill the metaphysical incarnation of death in the universe! Major bad juju for all!

Actually my first thought was "No, we know what happens in the bad end, and graduation day appears after bad things happen."

The real thought, though?
Yes, why NOT make Minato's choice completely irrelevant. It's not like he was free to choose it or anything.

Edit: I thought killing Ryoji also accelerated Nyx's approach?

 

[DrTempo]

Here's a quote from the game script that refutes what you said, Croaker:

Ryoji: I was born from a collection of Shadows. But now, I have a human form...
? ? ? So I can talk with you, laugh with you, cry with you... All gifts I
? ? ? received because I was inside him. So... I can give you a choice.

Yukari: A choice...?

Ryoji: Nyx's coming cannot be avoided. But, it is possible to live in peace
? ? ? until she arrives. You'll have to... kill me. If I were to disappear,
? ? ? all memories of the Dark Hour would disappear with me, as would any
? ? ? recollection of the fate that awaits you. You won't remember anything.
? ? ? The coming of the Fall will be instantaneous... and you will not suffer.
Mitsuru: We'll forget everything?

Ryoji: You'll be able to return to your normal lives. And in doing so, the time
? ? ? until the Fall will be slightly delayed. In essence, I am the same as
? ? ? Nyx and cannot be killed. But thanks to him, there's a part of me that's
? ? ? "human". So, if death comes from his hands, I think it may be possible.

(Bolded parts my emphasis)
...Basically, killing Ryoji DELAYS the Fall..by how long, who knows? That's why this story takes place the day after Graduation Day.

 

[armedlord]

I can't recall so I'm not sure at the moment...and the PS3 is being used for Warhawk by my eldest brother so I can't find out at the moment either.

I assume (note that I said assume so I'm unsure at the moment) that it's only delayed, even for a little bit. Maybe in the next full moon Nyx would still come since there ARE loads of people wishing for death in this crazy game.

Edit: okay, so I'm wrong in my guess...but still...like I said...just how many people are wishing for death again...?

After all, those who call for death, call for Nyx. The more people who wish for death, I do believe that the more faster Nyx arrives.

I mean in the Answer, You see some monstrous being that's made by the wishes of those who want to die that's banging on MC's soul like it's nobodies business.

Also, note that he said slightly delayed so I'm sure it's not much of a delay.

Also, if this character of yous is "the incarnation of Chaos" and the creation of everything in your words, could that mean that he really has intents to kill off humanity in some cases...? That's what slightly confuses me.

Also that then goes into the account of Igor and Philemon being of chaos or some such thing.

 

[DrTempo]

No, he doesn't. When he mentions "another," he's referring to Aigis. Also, he doesn't want the Fall to happen; it would shatter the balance. In other words, he is testing Minato and co.'s resolve, and wants to see if they can do what they were fated to do.

Also, the Fall is delayed a few months at least(Graduation Day is in April,) so it can be said that the Fall will come on the next full moon; that is why Chaos is calling SEES.

 

[Croaker]

Okay, I'll admit I had that totally wrong.

And I looked up the bad end, the scene takes place on 3/3, whereas the graduation is on 3/5, so I withdraw that objection. It's not implausible that the Fall occurs more than two days later.

It still sounds a lot like it's pissing on free will to me, though. Minato chose to die quietly, and this Chaos bloke is saying, "No. Fuck you. I don't care. You're going to do what I say or die screaming."

What balance exactly would the Fall shatter? Every human dying just leaves the forces of hell and the Almighty, and the main SMT line repeatedly uses the human characters as the "swing vote" as it were. It seems a lot more like the Fall would do a better job of preserving the balance in that case.

 

[DrTempo]

Chaos belives that, since Man is God's greatest creation, that they should be allowed to struggle, to exist. He believes that, by Minato choosing to accept the Fall, he has doomed the world; for when the Fall comes, all will be quiet and nothing. Chaos does not like that.

Also about the free will bit...That is why he offers Minato the choice again when Minato makes it to the throne room...To see if Minato's opinion has changed, or if he will still doom the world. Minato would probably learn that he would end up sacrificing himself if he had chose to spare Ryoji(courtesy of a viewing globe left by Chaos), and that would affect him...But he knows that what he chose then may be wrong....Chaos, like Kain in the Legacy of Kain series, is searching forthe "edge of the coin": Nyx is stopped, but Minato would live, if Minato decides to fight this time. Minato's choice would be affected by what he goes through.

Thoughts?

 

[Croaker]

Mankind is wishing for death. That's why Nyx is coming at all. Mankind has made it's choice, it hasn't chosen to struggle, it's chosen to die and invited its killer into its home.

There's no "allowed" to struggle about it. Mankind never really had that chance, they wouldn't have needed it if they hadn't wished for death, but they did. And so death comes for them. Nyx isn't a cause, it's the result. Mankind is the cause.

In the end, I really liked the bad end (and the good end). Changing it into a "but thou must" is an assassination of one of my favorite aspects of the game.

And then, why does Chaos care about the creations of the Almighty? From Chaos sprung forth all, you say, but Chaos is the force behind Louis Cypher and his legion in SMT, which stands in direct opposition to the Almighty. (Before anyone says Persona isn't mainline SMT canon, I'm almost sure Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. The Soulless Army says all of the games are. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)

It would be really easy for me to not hate this idea, actually. All it would take is a shift from Chaos being motivated by some benevolence for humanity, to Chaos being a sadist who's forcing Minato and SEES to struggle for his own amusement. Should Minato fail? It was fun to watch while it lasted. Should Minato succeed and die as canon? Good show, kid. Have fun sealing Nyx away for all eternity with your immortal soul. Should Minato succeed and not die (in some bizarre fuck you to P3 canon)? Heh, Chaos has a new plaything.

Edit: My bad, I now remember that all of the Persona that don't belong to Minato do come from Greek mythos. Never mind this point.

 

[DrTempo]

Well, Nyx is based on a Greek goddess...So, I counter that one.

Hmmm..Your idea about Chaos would fit better, I guess. Chaos wants man to live because without man, there will be no Chaos left...Free Will would fade...and he HATES that.

 

[Croaker]

The interpretation of Nyx is also so loose that the similarities are almost entirely superficial.

But yeah, I retracted that point anyway.

 

[DrTempo]

Sorry..I got ninja'd.

 

[Mea Nihil]

First amd foremost, you are confusing the real-world God with SMT's YHVH. The SMT God has shown repeatedly that he doesn't particularly find humans to be something he's proud of or even cares about (Nocturne really drives this point home - the Conception is essentially the Fall with something coming right afterwards). All he cares about is for them to obey his every whim, even if it means death - he's about oppressive domination.

Also, Chaos doesn't care about humans at all, it cares about FREEDOM TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. It's the very core of its philosophy, and the reason why Louis Cypher is so keen on blowing YHVH's plans up - he's robbing everyone of their freedom to choose.

Chaos would NOT interfere in this whole Nyx mess, because Nyx came about due to Mankind making a choice at a subconscious level - that choice being for it all to end. They made that choice freely, even though it was subconscious, and for that reason alone, Chaos would back off and respect that. Doing otherwise would spit on Chaos's very philosophy of existence.

Just clarifying.

 

[DrTempo]

On the other hand, that choice to call Nyx is subconcsious; aka not truly their choice. Man may want death somewhere in their hearts, but not all truly want it.
That is what this incarnation of Chaos thinks, anyway.

 

[knight_of_ni]

Okay, not to harp on anything but....the idea of Minato going back on his decision completely violates the whole point of the contract. The contract basically says that he must abide by his decisions and face the consequence of said decisions, he chose for the Fall to happen, so if everyone remembers and the other members of SEES go off to fight; then, in order to abide by the contract, he must not go with, or given how he wanted to have the fall happen, I imagine it wouldn't just be Takaya and Jin that try to stop SEES.

Given how pathetic your party seems to be without you (why did we die? I just got knocked out, it wasn't like I was run through or something), and how over powered the persona's the main character could have at that point are, things would get very....gruesome.

I have not played the Answer to the end, so I don't know if anything I am saying contradicts things found out during the Answer. So, yeah, some people might know more than me.

 

[GenocideHeart]

On the other hand, that choice to call Nyx is subconcsious; aka not truly their choice. Man may want death somewhere in their hearts, but not all truly want it.
That is what this incarnation of Chaos thinks, anyway.

Uh, actually, the choices made subconsciously reflect what you TRULY want, deep down. The choices you make outwardly often are a result of you trying to please everyone you care about as well as yourself, and can't be truly called 'yours', because outside events shape them. What you choose at a subconscious level is what you truly desire, your raw will unhindered by pesky humans around you influencing it.

It's a lot more truthful than what you like to think you want. Nobody CONSCIOUSLY does what they want, they are always restrained by silly things like society, morals and whatnot. Otherwise we'd all be cavemen and club any woman who makes us horny, dragging them away to have a quick fuck. We don't do it because 'OMG IT IS IMMORAL' and 'OMG IF I DO THAT LAW WILL PWN ME', not because we don't WANT to. But our subconscious is a lot more honest.

 

[DrTempo]

OK...Point, GH. But, Chaos believes that as long as a single person wishes to fight against fate, they should be given the chance. He takes up this discussion in a prologue with the gods; he suggests the events of this fic as a "game" to see if mankind is worth being given a second chance.

Chaos knows of the contract as well, and would even mention it in his first meeting with Minato alone. Chaos offers Minato a loophole to try and change his fate. In fact, Chaos(who can see into all possible fates) leaves a viewing globe behind to show Minato that the Fall CAN be delayed by showing him Erbeus' existence. Chaos hints that if Erbeus were beaten, then Minato can both save the world AND avoid death.

Of course, the contract is still in play; this is why Chaos offers Minato the choice to just let the Fall happen when they meet in the Throne Room; he has to.

 

[GenocideHeart]

OK...Point, GH. But, Chaos believes that as long as a single person wishes to fight against fate, they should be given the chance. He takes up this discussion in a prologue with the gods; he suggests the events of this fic as a "game" to see if mankind is worth being given a second chance.

Chaos knows of the contract as well, and would even mention it in his first meeting with Minato alone. Chaos offers Minato a loophole to try and change his fate. In fact, Chaos(who can see into all possible fates) leaves a viewing globe behind to show Minato that the Fall CAN be delayed by showing him Erbeus' existence. Chaos hints that if Erbeus were beaten, then Minato can both save the world AND avoid death.

Of course, the contract is still in play; this is why Chaos offers Minato the choice to just let the Fall happen when they meet in the Throne Room; he has to.

The problem is that the only way to 'beat' Erebus is commit mass genocide. As long as the Shadows exist, Erebus will also exist, and since the Shadows are a product of the human psyche, the ONLY way to permanenty deal with them is - wipe the human race out completely. Otherwise, it'll just be delaying the inevitable. Much like the Grand Seal, I might add - the end result is the same, all things considered.

Also, that whole 'as long as even one person wishes to fight Fate, they should be given the chance' bullshit is exactly what happened in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. Which, if you recall, had Marche playing the 'YOUR LIFE SUCKS SHIT AND I'M BRINGING YOU BACK TO IT EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T WANT TO' part. Human will is exceptionally selfish. By letting people defy Fate, Chaos is endorsing selfishness, not free will, because by denying the majority their wish, it's basically imposing a minoroty's wish over the majority.

In short, Chaos is an asshole who isn't doing anybody favors. He's just making things shittier for the majority and mildly more tolerable for a minority.

 

[DrTempo]

Ouch...Point taken. I guess Chaos COULD be portraying himself as a benevolent person, but only wants to keep his "toys"(mankind) around to play with.

As For Erbeus, I meant that Chaos reveals that if Erbeus was beatn physically(like in The Answer) the Fall could be delayed for a long time.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Ouch...Point taken. I guess Chaos COULD be portraying himself as a benevolent person, but only wants to keep his "toys"(mankind) around to play with.

As For Erbeus, I meant that Chaos reveals that if Erbeus was beatn physically(like in The Answer) the Fall could be delayed for a long time.

The only thing beating Erebus physically will do is make the Shadows leaderless, but their base instinct is still to get to Nyx, so that changes very little. It just may add, oh, 10 years to the Fall's time, best case scenario... which isn't that long a time, considering the average lifespan is 80 years.

In the end, Minato will still have to become the Grand Seal, and he'll also have worked his ass off to gain just a handful of years and make the eventual separation even more painful for those left behind. I say, why bother? Just create the Grand Seal right off the bat and get it over with. It'll also make the survivors' grief a lot less deep.

 

[GenocideHeart]

By the way, technically there's already an incarnation of Chaos in the Persona-verse.

Nyarlathotep.

So... this 'Chaos' guy of yours is kinda going against previously estabilished characters, since Nyarlie's wish was for everything to return to the nothingness of Chaos...

To put it bluntly, Chaos-aligned individuals in the Persona-verse are neither nice nor particularly subtle about their wishes... or would you call the Joker Curse 'subtle'?

 

[DrTempo]

I see...this guy is more in tune with the Greek concept of Chaos(the one thta gave brith to Nyx.)

He COULD be something else, I suppose.... But the general concept is the same: A powerful being who doesn't want to lose his playthings(mankind), and sees SEES(pun not intended) as the best option for this.
EDIT: In fact, I see him as being a lot like Kain from the Legacy of Kain series in personality; in fact, the title comes from Kain's opening speech in Defiance, as does the quote I had Chaos say in one of the early posts.