Harry Potter Harry traveling to another universe challenge

AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#1
This somewhat crept up on me while skimming through one of the usual Harry kills Voldemort and then ends up in another dimension that still has snake-boy running around, has an angst fest after remeeting his lost true love and family, ect; giving birth to this. What if the various Dark Lords that appeared every few decades served somewhat as a release valve for the more negative parts of the wizarding world?

Which leads to Harry who having recently killed Voldemort a few years before and done his mourning for all those that died has gone off to celebrate life in the Bahamas with his girlfriend and surviving comrades... only to suddenly awake up a few days later in alternate universe where Voldemort had never existed.

Unfortunately without Voldemort to serve as a counter weight the ministry has transformed into directorship where book burnings are common, even the slightest hint of the dark arts can have you arrested and thrown into Azkaban faster then a person can say Hogwarts, the various halfbloods and muggleborns are second class citizens, there are no "known" werewolves or vampires anywhere in western Europe, the goblins are on the verge of open rebellion, and the rest?

Well letÆs just say that the house elves are at the top social ladder and leave it at that.

Enter Harry who having spent the last few days laying low and trying to figure out what the hell happened finds himself being dragged (somewhat kicking and screaming) into this worlds politics and a position that he never wanted... becoming a Dark Lord, mainly because the items and spells need to send him back are extremly rare, expensive, and dark.

Of course Harry isn't the most normal of Dark Lords, what with his minions being mainly halfbloods and muggleborns, not toruting his servants for failing but for being stupid, not being a raciest, being generally skilled in light magic, having no problem using the various magic races and their talents to the full advantage possible, and even being willing to use muggles and muggle weapons (the near magical power of a nuke isn't to be underestimated).

Rules

--Harry isn't a thug he's a Dark Lord; that doesn't mean that he isn't capable of being extremely mean and vicious, just that he doesn't do it acting like a thug.

--Harry has a sense of morals and honor. That doesn't mean that he's a bleeding heart, but simply has a sense of right and wrong and is capable of keeping his word.

--At least one scene of Harry raiding one of those semi-mythical places thought lost to time until somebody went and found it, only for it to get destroyed while both sides where trying to claim it during the war with Voldemort.

--Harry's doesnÆt spend more then a paragraph or two angsting over the past.

--Harry's intelligent, explaining why Harry was vacation in the Bahamas and Voldemort fertilizer and capable of using common sense such as it nice to have a group skilled wizards at your back, its even better to have a group of skill wizards and a group Squibs armed with Ak-47's.

--He's capable of thinking outside the box explaining why he had squibs armed Ak-47's, snipers shooting anyone that looked like they were giving orders, Dobby stealing anything not nailed down in Malfoy Manor while placing plastic explosives throughout it, ect., during the war against Voldemort.

--He doesnÆt forget the usefulness of various muggle technologies while trying to conquer the wizarding world.

--Harry's one of his worlds most skilled user of the dark arts, how he learned is totally up to the author. He might have studied it on the side while being taught the more powerful light spells or after killing Voldemort gaining all of his power and knowledge of the dark arts.

--Harry mustn't go and seek out his friends and family that died in his world; to him these people aren't them.

--Harry wants to get home and doesnÆt care all that much that this means that he has tear apart the wizarding world to do so.

--Harry is good at fighting and understands tactics or at least has someone he trusts that does.

--Harry must have at some time read the The Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord and at least do one of the things on the list.
 

Israfel

Well-Known Member
#2
Hmm, very good idea, I like it a lot, especially the 'reluctant dark lord' idea and the ministry being nazi-like, heh, that would make Fudge Hitler, hehe. Would be interesting to see how someone did this one, good luck to anyone who does because I'm not, it interests me to read something like that but doesn't spark enough inspiration for me to write anything for it. Meh. And I think I might have a copy of that list you mentioned lying about my house somewhere now that I think of it. :lol: :D ;)
 

Mighty Bob

Well-Known Member
#3
If I could write I'd be on this idea like Orochimaru on Sasuke's ass. Most interesting idea for an Etradimensional Harry story I've seen yet. Pretty mcuh all of em I've ever bothered to waste time looking at are more or less Form stories, just fill in the blanks here and there, nuke on high for 5 minutes and enjoy.

And the idea of Harry utilizing the Evil Overlord List is damn funny. Have to wonder if that things still around, haven't seen any copies of it floating about in a few years.

Just outta curiosity, in this world are Wizards and Muggles still doing their own things seperately, or have the wizards managed to take over everything (despite the massive imbalance of numbers in population) And is it just the British/European Wizards that've gone all Nazi-like or all the wizard societies in the world?

Other than that I can so see harry steamrolling this world once he gets on the ball and scrounges up a few hundred followers or so.
 

Israfel

Well-Known Member
#4
Pretty mcuh all of em I've ever bothered to waste time looking at are more or less Form stories, just fill in the blanks here and there, nuke on high for 5 minutes and enjoy.
Hehe, yah it seems like that doesn't it? Heh, as a joke we should write out that form, that would be really funny to see.
 

AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#5
Mighty Bob

And the idea of Harry utilizing the Evil Overlord List is damn funny. Have to wonder if that things still around, haven't seen any copies of it floating about in a few years.

Thanks; the evil overlord list can be found on goggle but here's the one that I used. http://www.sterlingtwilight.net/evil/handbook.html

Just outta curiosity, in this world are Wizards and Muggles still doing their own things seperately, or have the wizards managed to take over everything (despite the massive imbalance of numbers in population) And is it just the British/European Wizards that've gone all Nazi-like or all the wizard societies in the world?

I thought I'd leave that to the author, but in the idea I had of it the wizards are more or less ruling behind the scenes at least in Europe, partly do to the British MoM of having an intelligent minister who showed the other ministries how easily it is to control the muggles (the minister can be Dumbledore, Crouch, or whoever want); and it mainly just the western European wizards that all Nazi-like, although they and the nations they control are putting pressure on the wizard and muggle societies throughout the world.

One thing of Interest depending on whether the author wants to use it is that as I commentated that there isn't any "dark" creature left in western Europe, but quite a number of them might have fled to the eastern Europe making it very possible that in this world the Iron Curtain still exists, NATO and the Warsaw Pact are still forces to be reckoned with., and world is still on the brink of global war with both sides trying to force their philosophies down the throats of various nations throughout the world.

Other than that I can so see harry steamrolling this world once he gets on the ball and scrounges up a few hundred followers or so.

Yep, he might have problems at first but once he gets the ball rolling... it does help that do to the war against Voldemort he knows the various secret passages, codes, and layouts of the various places of importance throughout western Europe and is capable of doing the most terrible of all sins in the wizarding world, the ability to think outside the box.

As shown by him recognizing the near magical power of a nuke or having Dobby stealing anything not nailed down in Malfoy Manor while placing plastic explosives throughout it.
 

AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#6
I've decided to get started on this (actually I would've already started if life hadn't been getting in the way) and was wondering about something; should I have anyone else travel with Harry to the Alternate Universe ?

The reason that I was wondering is that in the AU even the cannon!characters that appear are going to be at least somewhat OOC to what you'd expect, the core of who they are is going to be quite similar if not the same as their counterparts but I've always been a believer of a person's surrounding helping to influence who you become and in this almost a entire generation have grown in a environment that's quite a bit different to their cannon counterparts.
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#7
Have Hermione end up with him, but make her gay so there can't be HHr on any major level. Haveing him lover her and her love him is nice, but haveing it be 'that' love or having them sleep with eachother would detract from this type of story. You should also have the AU Hermione be an unwilling love slave for Draco, Ron, Sirius, or James Potter. And make sure to have Sirius be alot like Bella is in cannon.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#8
Who knows, if they're even more biggoted they may even view rare abilities like Metamorps and Animagus' in the same light. Meaning that it could be pretty darn nasty to just about anyone.

This could mean that the marauders never became Animagus' or something else.

Tonks could be in the same boat...on the run or worse than 2nd class.
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#9
My favorite bits from the guide that can be used for this have to be:

11. Members of my Legions of Terror will attend seminars on Sensitivity Training. It's good public relations for them to be kind and courteous to the general population when not actively engaged in sowing chaos and destruction.
19. My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.
25. I will have my fortress exorcised regularly. Although ghosts in the dungeon provide an appropriate atmosphere, they tend to provide valuable information once placated.
27. I will add indelible dye to the moat. It won't stop anyone from swimming across, but even dim-witted guards should be able to figure out when someone has entered in this fashion. [It should glow under black light and in the dark]
30. I will make several ludicrously erroneous maps to secret passages in my fortress and hire travelers to entrust them to aged hermits.

32. I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a crucial point in time.
33. I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father.
34. As an alternative to not having children, I will have lots of children. My sons will be too busy jockeying for position to ever be a real threat, and the daughters will all sabotage each other's attempts to win the hero.
(could come up as a passing joke for why Harry isn't trying to have an hair if asked)

37. I will spare someone who saved my life sometime in the past. This is only reasonable as it encourages others to do so. However, the offer is good one time only. If they want me to spare them again, they'd better save my life again.
42. I will never accept a challenge from the hero.
43. When the rebel leader challenges me to fight one-on-one and asks, "Or are you afraid without your armies to back you up?" my reply will be, "No, just sensible."
55. I will not shoot at any of my enemies if they are standing in front of the crucial support beam to a heavy, dangerous, unbalanced structure.
61. I will maintain a healthy amount of skepticism when I capture the beautiful rebel and she claims she is attracted to my power and good looks and will gladly betray her companions if I just let her in on my plans. I will then lie to her, and see if she betrays me.[Ginny :snigger: ]
67. Despite the delicious irony, I will not force two heroes to fight each other in the arena.
68. If I know of any heroes in the land, I will not under any circumstance kill their mentors, teachers, and/or best friends.

76. The artifact that is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box.
77. If I learn the whereabouts of the one artifact that can destroy me, I will not send all my troops out to seize it. Instead I will send them out to seize something else and quietly put a Want Ad in the local paper. This too, will be placed in my save-deposit box.
82. If I must have computer systems with publicly available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment.[Have Harry place directeries around his keep and replace the computer room with artifact storage or something]
96. If I ever build a device to transfer the hero's energy into me, I will make sure it cannot operate in reverse.[this could be how Harry gets his dark Knowlage]

102. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
103. My five-year-old child advisor will also be asked to decipher any code I am thinking of using. If he breaks the code in less than 30 seconds, it will not be used. Note: this also applies to passwords.
104. If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?" I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies them.
105. If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
109. If my trusted lieutenant tells me my Legions of Terror are losing a battle, I will believe him. After all, he's my trusted lieutenant.
110. I will classify my lieutenants in three categories: untrusted, trusted, and completely trusted. Promotion to the third category will be awarded posthumously.
111. I will hire one hopelessly stupid and incompetent lieutenant, but make sure that he is full of misinformation when I send him to capture the hero.
114. I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up I will not draw my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure," then suddenly turn and kill some random, totally reliable underling.
115. I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news just to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by.
116. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as members of my organization, nor will they be required to wear military boots or adhere to any other dress codes.
117. I won't require high-ranking female members of my organization to wear a stainless-steel bustier. Morale is better with a more casual dress code. Similarly, outfits made entirely from black leather will be reserved for formal occasions.
122. Employees will have conjugal visit trailers, which they may use provided they call in a replacement and sign out on the timesheet. Given this, anyone caught making out in a closet while leaving his or her station unmonitored will be shot.
124. I reserve the right to execute any henchmen who appear to be a little too intelligent, powerful, or devious. However if I do so, I will not at some subsequent point shout "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools?!"
130. I will not order my trusted lieutenant to kill the infant who is destined to overthrow me -- I'll do it myself.(just rember to use a gun, and not magic)
137. I will treat any beast that I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.
138. No matter how much I want revenge, I will never order an underling "Leave him. He's mine!"
139. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well'' and kill her.
140. I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being then attempt to double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary.
141. If it becomes necessary to escape, I will never stop to pose dramatically and toss off a one-liner.
142. Bulk trash will be disposed of in incinerators, not compactors. And they will be kept hot, with none of that nonsense about flames going through accessible tunnels at predictable intervals.
145. When I create a multimedia presentation of my plan designed so that my five-year-old advisor can easily understand the details, I will not label the disk "Project Overlord" and leave it lying on top of my desk.
146. I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button."
151. Since nothing is more irritating than a hero defeating you with basic math skills, all of my personal weapons will be modified to fire one more shot than the standard issue.
170. I will hire a drama coach. The hero will think it must be a case of mistaken identity when confronted by my Minnesota accent (if everyone sounds American) or my Cornwall accent (if everyone sounds British).
174. I will not outsource core functions.

192. All giant serpents acting as guardians in underground lakes will be fitted with sports goggles to prevent eye injuries.
193. All crones with the ability to prophesy will be given free facelifts, permanents, manicures, and Donna Karan wardrobes. That should pretty well destroy their credibility.
207. I will hire an entire squad of blind guards. Not only is this in keeping with my status as an equal opportunity employer, but it will come in handy when the hero becomes invisible or douses my only light source.
 

AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#10
Waruiko said:
Have Hermione end up with him, but make her gay so there can't be HHr on any major level.
I think I just might use the idea of a lesbian Hermione, given how it isn't something that you see all that often and one of the things that I'm trying to do is avoid the majority of clichÚÆs that you tend to see in "Harry goes to AUverse"

Haveing him lover her and her love him is nice, but haveing it be 'that' love or having them sleep with eachother would detract from this type of story.
There's actually not going to be all that much romance in this. After all when you know that you'll live to at least 130 years of age there isn't much of a need to rush and while Harry would never admit it, even under torture he'll be something of a romantic in that he wants somebody who'd accept him for who he is and all that; on the other hand he will have probably have several fuck buddies but that's about it.

Several of the other characters may or may not romances going on but that'll be in the background of the story unless of course it has any effects on various politics in the story. Besides Harry is going to be on something of a time limit to get back home...

SotF
-
This could mean that the marauders never became Animagus' or something else.
Who says that the Marauders ever existed? Don't forget what I put at top about what this universe is like; some characters are going to quite similar to their cannon counterparts but a good number are going to have been changed by events that happened earlier for good or ill.

Waruiko(Again)

Given Harry own experience with quite a few of the things that you are supposed to not do; such as:

-43. When the rebel leader challenges me to fight one-on-one and asks, "Or are you afraid without your armies to back you up?" my reply will be, "No, just sensible."
-76. The artifact that is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box.
-104. If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?" I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies them.
-115. I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news just to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by.
-116. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as members of my organization, nor will they be required to wear military boots or adhere to any other dress codes.
-138. No matter how much I want revenge, I will never order an underling "Leave him. He's mine!"


As for Ginny let us just say that they did not last and leave it at that.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#11
My mention of the marauders was more at James, Peter, and Sirius. You already said that Werewolves are either extinct or close to it so there is little chance of the group actually forming in the first place unless Fenrir was killed before he infected Remus. Personally I find the idea of the werewolf guerilla leader Remus would be pretty interesting.

Also I was thinking that if something did spur the creation of the marauders and perhaps them becomming Animagus there could be the counter point of them keeping it secret because it would lower their status in the world.

With the lesbian Hermione, one twist on one of the usual cliche's would be to have Ginny basically having her as a toy of some sort.

For not checking on the new dimensions versions of his friends and allies, I really don't see why he wouldn't check on them at all. I mean you look for what is familiar first in most cases like that. Immediately building an alliance with them really is stupid though because while they are familiar, you don't really know these people. One or two may be trusted but others definately wouldn't.

One interesting example would be to have Peter Pettigrew actually be one of the more decent people in the reality (Semi-cowardly person trying to turn things back around, or perhaps have him as a very public critic of the governments policies.).

Its even possible that James and Lilly would never have so much as dated in the world.

Also Harry could have allies with him from the beginning, those on vacation with him could have shifted as well. For some reason since Order of the Phoenix I keep seeing Duddly helping out somehow after Harry saved his ass from the Dementor.

Something to make things even more interesting would be to later add in opposition to Harry from the original world (Draco arriving or something) as a counterpoint, perhaps even a partial one to add more conflict. for instance with Draco, the worlds views on those he mainly dislikes are the positive, but its views on the dark arts...
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#12
Big D huh... What if D was a wizard himself!
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#13
That could be an interesting thought, though I'd really doubt it. Personally, I'd view him as more of the Fighter to Harry's Sorcerer. He doesn't seem to be quite that smart, but is aparently a decent fist fighter and capable of halfway decent leadership if unable to get normal friends as far as has been seen.

Even in the 2nd world the Dursleys probably oughtn't be that different and its possible that they may end up being even more opposed to the magical world. Petunias anger (at least) seems to be based somewhat in jealousy about Lilly being the special one. In this world she may be even more enraged at the wizarding world due to how bigoted it is where they would even look down on someone the same as they were. Petunia and the Dursleys seem to be in basically the same state though without the abuse of Harry.

Of course, in this kind of thing it is possible that the Wizards don't obliviate, they annihalate which leads to an entirely different set of problems.
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#14
SotF said:
That could be an interesting thought, though I'd really doubt it. Personally, I'd view him as more of the Fighter to Harry's Sorcerer. He doesn't seem to be quite that smart, but is aparently a decent fist fighter and capable of halfway decent leadership if unable to get normal friends as far as has been seen.
:blink: Big D with sword-chucks and Harry in a BM robe and hat just blasted into my mindscape! BM's Uber spell even uses love as it's fuel! :lol:
 

kijin666

Well-Known Member
#15
The wizarding world vs. Harry and The Evil Overlord's List... Heh, no contest. :snigger:

If Dudley is going to be on Harry's side, give him Seras' Halconnen cannon. I can picture him shredding Aurors with the 30mm terror while Harry blows Fudge's head off with a .454 Casull. :flameon: :lonegunman: :snigger:

After all, who needs wands when you can use rocket launchers. :snigger:

Just picture the wizards' reactions when Harry responds to a duel with Rule#43.

"I challenge you, Dark Lord Harry Potter, to a duel! Or are you to scared to face me?" -Ron Weasley

"...All troops, open fire!!!" -Harry Potter :flameon: :yay:
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#16
Well, one interesting tactic he could start with is to level the ministry while the Wizengamot is in session to basically start by shattering the government and it wouldn't take to much to do to level a single building and I really doubt an even more pureblood focused society would have thought about being bombed by sabateurs.

Harry could co-opt the Basalisk from the chamber for even more fun.

Don't go with an attack on Hogwarts. Schools and hospitals should be left alone unless used for other purposes meaning that the wizarding schools and places like St. Mungos would be off limits unless they were used as a base. And with the schools, when during the summer or the like, they become fair game (Just make sure to raid them for information first or take them over)

He'd need to find a good place to house prisoners and I really wouldn't trust the dementors anyway with how easily they betrayed the ministry in the original world.

Take out key figures of the opposition. A cool example would be the assassination of Dumbledore during the opening feat by a sniper with an invisibility cloak and a portkey (For even more havok, put a charm on the ammo that they begin to turn to acid or something a short time after being fired).

Cause incidents that make the ministry look bad internationally. A mind controlled auror attempting to assassinate heads of other governments (They also make great Suicide bombers in a pinch).

Build a mistique through misdirection as well as actual ability. Have them set off the planted explosives when you make a hand signal or the like. Being known for having killed a few hundred enemies with a mere wave of the hand makes them more likely to think twice aout fighting you and with how supersticious the wizarding world is makes them unlikely to look for a muggle explaination.

Get the muggle government on your side and perhaps even integrate with them. Makes getting munitions easier if nothing else.

Remember that some of your allies have different limitations than you do. Allied trolls may be able to carry and utilize better weapons than humans for taking out large numbers like the normally mounted cannons.

Armor is always a good idea, especially if magically lightened.
 

kijin666

Well-Known Member
#17
Mustard gas in the Ministry. It's nasty as hell, hard to treat, and is great for physcological warfare. I think the Brits created the stuff in the first place. B)

I wonder if he could create a magical version of a "dirty bomb". I think that would scare the bastards shitless. :evil:

Even better: pull an Osama. Fly a plane loaded with explosives right into the Ministry. And nothing says "burn in hell!!!" like an FAE over Diagon Alley. :flameon:

Animated golems as suicide bombers would be fun, too. :snigger:

And lastly, remember: heavy-machineguns and howitzers are our friends... :flameon: :lonegunman: :flameon: :lonegunman: :ph43r:
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#18
kijin666 said:
And lastly, remember: heavy-machineguns and howitzers are our friends... :flameon: :lonegunman: :flameon: :lonegunman: :ph43r:
Combine that with the bigger magical creatures and you have some nasty heavy weapons platforms. House Elves riding giants, the giants basically lugging around armor and close combat weapons and supporting a large cannon for the elves to wield while the elves add the teleportation element for hopping around the battlefield.
 

kijin666

Well-Known Member
#19
Who needs giants? Some good levitation enchantments, a 150mm main cannon, a few 30mm crew-mounted machineguns, a VLS missile system for indirect fire, and you're set for a mobile weapon platform. Maybe I played Star Ocean 3 too many times, but I keep picturing a dragon with a set of cannons strafing Knockturn Alley. :flameon: :flameon: :flameon: :rofl:
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#20
kijin666 said:
Who needs giants? Some good levitation enchantments, a 150mm main cannon, a few 30mm crew-mounted machineguns, a VLS missile system for indirect fire, and you're set for a mobile weapon platform. Maybe I played Star Ocean 3 too many times, but I keep picturing a dragon with a set of cannons strafing Knockturn Alley. :flameon: :flameon: :flameon: :rofl:
Dragons are supposedly pretty much uncontrollable.

My suggestion about using Giants or Trolls is because while the elves are gunning wizards down, the other can be smashing up the things that think its a good idea to get in close. Of course Giants/Trolls can also be pretty effective battering rams and able to trash other things, or even carry more weapons for use.
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#21
No need to get over complacated in arms. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Old Russian tanks bought surpluss would work just fine.
 

Typhonis

Well-Known Member
#22
Or go the 'Prank Lord Potter ' route.... no need to kill your enemies when you can drive them batshit insane.
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#23
You can't bug evil into submission. You either have to kill it or maim and incarserate it.
 
#24
Depends on the kind of pranks.
Less 'bug' and more 'render into a permanent vegetative state.'
 

Waruiko

Well-Known Member
#25
But this Harry is sane! He might pull some weird shit out of his hat every once in a while, but he isn't going to be makeing houses grow chicken legs and run across the hillside fir no reason!
 
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