Ranma ½ Historys Strongest Disciple
- Thread starter Lost Star
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The moment they revealed Hayate's power level & Yami/Yomi connection to him, I thought of Baki the grappler instantly. That, and Tough. HDSK used to be one of my fav, and may be still is. But Hayate broke the manga for me. I understand that it took someone with quite the muscle to bring these masters in line, but to the level of YYH's Toguro's extent?
Hayate is a big part of why HSDK and Ranma1/2 can't mix properly. His existance negates the need to limit ranma's abilities. And even pre-manga Ranma will curb-stomp Shou, if you let him. Seeing as Takahashi lets her character uses strength close to HSDK's master level, it's pretty much a given. That'll distance Ranma from Kenichi's crowd, so you'll have to take the ANC route to fill in the blanks. You can use Yami, but even less is know about them.
IMO, it's not really the philosophy mumbo-jumbo that the problem. It's the same damn thing since DBZ started. POWER LEVELS.
It's what's wrong with the whole shonen genre ATM. Once you start, you can't stop. And the longer the story, the more broken it'll be.
Hayate is a big part of why HSDK and Ranma1/2 can't mix properly. His existance negates the need to limit ranma's abilities. And even pre-manga Ranma will curb-stomp Shou, if you let him. Seeing as Takahashi lets her character uses strength close to HSDK's master level, it's pretty much a given. That'll distance Ranma from Kenichi's crowd, so you'll have to take the ANC route to fill in the blanks. You can use Yami, but even less is know about them.
IMO, it's not really the philosophy mumbo-jumbo that the problem. It's the same damn thing since DBZ started. POWER LEVELS.
It's what's wrong with the whole shonen genre ATM. Once you start, you can't stop. And the longer the story, the more broken it'll be.
Bit off topic but is there any good Fist of the North Star crossovers out? All this martial arts talk has me reading Fist of the North Star again. Ranma learning Hokuto no Ken scares the living shit out of me, Its Anything Goes on crack with a large does testosterone.
Other than that how about a younger Ranma in HDSK like maybe 14 years old? 2 years before the start of the Manga his power level can be scaled at that time to at least the High Disciple Class and be a good match against Yomi/Kenichi.
Other than that how about a younger Ranma in HDSK like maybe 14 years old? 2 years before the start of the Manga his power level can be scaled at that time to at least the High Disciple Class and be a good match against Yomi/Kenichi.
That's not something that's 'wrong' with Shonen. It's a part of Shonen. If you don't like it, then don't read Shonen. It's like reading yaoi and complaining about the anal sex. Part of the entire point is heroes getting stronger to overcome, which in turn reflects what is happening to the target demographic in real life (they're growing up). That's why it's so popular. You can't have a long-running Shonen where the power levels don't inflate, because that's what the main characters need to overcome the obstacles set in their way. If Dragon Ball is guilty of anything, it's not power inflation. It's that it kept on going well beyond it's due date. It should have, and was supposed to have, ended on Namek, with Goku achieving Zen and becoming his universes version of Buddha (in line with his status as a direct expy of Sun Wukong), taking out the Big Bad (Frieza), and then passing the torch to Gohan. End series. Only it didn't, because executives meddled, and it was kind of downhill from there.
Hayate's power level isn't important for that reason. He didn't 'break' the masters. They're there because they want to be. His power level is important because it means he, specifically, is the one thing that's keeping Black Sun from just walking in and taking everything over. They cannot and will not move directly and openly because Hayate would tear them apart. He exists as the counter to the Evil Shadow Empire. There always has to be an explanation for why the Evil Shadow Empire doesn't already control everything if it doesn't already control everything. In HSDK, that explanation happens to be a man.
Hayate's power level isn't important for that reason. He didn't 'break' the masters. They're there because they want to be. His power level is important because it means he, specifically, is the one thing that's keeping Black Sun from just walking in and taking everything over. They cannot and will not move directly and openly because Hayate would tear them apart. He exists as the counter to the Evil Shadow Empire. There always has to be an explanation for why the Evil Shadow Empire doesn't already control everything if it doesn't already control everything. In HSDK, that explanation happens to be a man.
If I was a member of one of those martial arts factions I definitely wouldn't want Happosai on my side.
And anyway, everybody thought Happosai was dead after he was buried alive using dynamite. He was buried deep, too, wrapped up in chains. It took him ten years to dig his way out, secret martial arts society might not even know/believe he's back.
Eeeh, I'm with leeyiankun on this one... I won't deny that "getting stronger" is part of shounen, and there's no reason it shouldn't be, but I think it's handled... really poorly. I think the extreme literalness with which characters "get stronger" is the problem.
After like a few hundred chapters, Kenichi can win fights against a larger fraction of everybody, so like his POWER LEVEL has gone up, but is he more confident? Self-assured? Not so much... so the thing is, he's "grown stronger", but he's not a stronger person.
That's the problem with the shounen LEVEL UP, I get sick of reading about someone who's gonna make the same mistakes, who hasn't matured or learned, but oh, he can flippin' bench-press more. That's growth, right?
No. I don't care about that.
And anyway, everybody thought Happosai was dead after he was buried alive using dynamite. He was buried deep, too, wrapped up in chains. It took him ten years to dig his way out, secret martial arts society might not even know/believe he's back.
Eeeh, I'm with leeyiankun on this one... I won't deny that "getting stronger" is part of shounen, and there's no reason it shouldn't be, but I think it's handled... really poorly. I think the extreme literalness with which characters "get stronger" is the problem.
After like a few hundred chapters, Kenichi can win fights against a larger fraction of everybody, so like his POWER LEVEL has gone up, but is he more confident? Self-assured? Not so much... so the thing is, he's "grown stronger", but he's not a stronger person.
That's the problem with the shounen LEVEL UP, I get sick of reading about someone who's gonna make the same mistakes, who hasn't matured or learned, but oh, he can flippin' bench-press more. That's growth, right?
No. I don't care about that.
Um, actually, he is more confident and self-assured. Much, much more. And it happened more or less in-line with his increase in strength. He used to be a meek, timid bookworm who couldn't do anything right. Now he stands up for what he believes in even against popular opinion and people who could hurt him, is a leader amongst his peers, boldly walks into situations where he knows he's going to have to fight and might potentially die purely because it's the right thing to do, and is kind of an accidental pimp.
Were I ever to write a cross between the two, I'd have Ranma as an extra-dimensional entity from Kooky Martial Arts World (Which would make HSDK Anal-Retentive Martial Arts World due to its excessive categorization of fighting styles). Just to avoid debates like this.
I decided that a long time ago too. I'd rather Ranma approach mastery from his own natural vector instead of being pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter mold decided by some other story's mechanics.
I decided that a long time ago too. I'd rather Ranma approach mastery from his own natural vector instead of being pigeonholed into a cookie-cutter mold decided by some other story's mechanics.
Yeah. Then you'll start entirely new ones about retarded cliches like dimension traveler Ranma and how you're bashing HSDK for actually trying to be realistic instead of being Dragon Ball Street Fighter on an acid trip.
Except for the fact that, in his own universe, the only master is Happosai. And even at his very best in-manga, Ranma got casually bitchslapped by Happosai. Which means Ranma will probably never be a 'master' in his entire life. Not outside of fanfiction.
Except for the fact that, in his own universe, the only master is Happosai. And even at his very best in-manga, Ranma got casually bitchslapped by Happosai. Which means Ranma will probably never be a 'master' in his entire life. Not outside of fanfiction.
True very true, Happosai is no where near as strong Hayate but expierance wise I wouldn't count him out completely and since in the Kenichi-verse it pays more lip service to SKILL more than brute power while Happosai isn't even worth one Roshi he's got more tricks up his sleeve than anyone has any right too. You yourself told us strength is only paid lip service in Kenichi-versee, whereas style and technique carries the day. Hayate is a walking contradiction to that statement then from your point of view.
Plus remember that Happosai WAS sealed up for 10 somethin years, he's a dead man walking again and really its Happosai no one wants him on their side no matter how skilled he is and anyone who's studdied under him or who follows his style wouldn't been seen in a much better light either... well they wouldn't be right up until they get smashed in the face.
Hehehe, in this case Ranma's goal in this fic could be to prove once and for all his style is the strongest and isn't a mockery that everyone thinks it is.
Plus remember that Happosai WAS sealed up for 10 somethin years, he's a dead man walking again and really its Happosai no one wants him on their side no matter how skilled he is and anyone who's studdied under him or who follows his style wouldn't been seen in a much better light either... well they wouldn't be right up until they get smashed in the face.
Hehehe, in this case Ranma's goal in this fic could be to prove once and for all his style is the strongest and isn't a mockery that everyone thinks it is.
And Happosai's rank in Ranma 1/2 is Where Hayate's standing in HSDK.
I doubt Kenichi will ever fight evenly with Hayate EVER, if that's what it takes for him to gain master rank.
Hayate didn't BROKE the masters. He broke the story. I can believe that Kenichi someday can obtain skills close to his sensei. But Hayate? he's so high above the masters, it's not even funny. And Kenichi might have to fight him for Miu's hand. OUCH.
Happosai fits the old 'wise sensei' than Hayate (ok, Happi isn't that wise). Because he doesn't retain that amount of muscle mass that Hayate has. He relies on Ki, Tricks, and cunning. All things that the typical sensei would have at that age.
Compare to Ranma 1/2, HSDK world has it's upper limit broken. You can retain your youth/muscle/height regardless of age, once you're good enough at the arts. If this was available, Cologne would still be young and pretty, not an 'Old Ghoul'. Petty as they may be, the masters in Ranma1/2 is resourceful. In HSDK, the art gives you EVERYTHING. You just have to be good enough to earn it. Imagine, a Happi with Hayate's type of body. Now that's a SCARY thought. Totally believable, if he can get ki from panties, he should be able to find some ways to do it. He's that PETTY.
So, considering that the 2 masters in Ranma1/2 can literally change the history of HSDK itself.... All from their background and age alone. Happi's too annoying not to bug everyone. And Cologne's village path of marrying 'strong males'?
Hate to say it LR, but you're looking at it too literally. :huh.:
I doubt Kenichi will ever fight evenly with Hayate EVER, if that's what it takes for him to gain master rank.
Hayate didn't BROKE the masters. He broke the story. I can believe that Kenichi someday can obtain skills close to his sensei. But Hayate? he's so high above the masters, it's not even funny. And Kenichi might have to fight him for Miu's hand. OUCH.
Happosai fits the old 'wise sensei' than Hayate (ok, Happi isn't that wise). Because he doesn't retain that amount of muscle mass that Hayate has. He relies on Ki, Tricks, and cunning. All things that the typical sensei would have at that age.
Compare to Ranma 1/2, HSDK world has it's upper limit broken. You can retain your youth/muscle/height regardless of age, once you're good enough at the arts. If this was available, Cologne would still be young and pretty, not an 'Old Ghoul'. Petty as they may be, the masters in Ranma1/2 is resourceful. In HSDK, the art gives you EVERYTHING. You just have to be good enough to earn it. Imagine, a Happi with Hayate's type of body. Now that's a SCARY thought. Totally believable, if he can get ki from panties, he should be able to find some ways to do it. He's that PETTY.
So, considering that the 2 masters in Ranma1/2 can literally change the history of HSDK itself.... All from their background and age alone. Happi's too annoying not to bug everyone. And Cologne's village path of marrying 'strong males'?
Hate to say it LR, but you're looking at it too literally. :huh.:
Magic Mushrooms instant youth........................... for Cologne and Happosai they can be easily found.
Ranma with Super Soba, Mark of the War God, Maybe Battle Dogi, Yamasenken, Herb's move list, Happosai's Ki's reserves vs Hayate?
Also think Ma Kensei is married to an one of the Joketsuzoku women?
Ranma with Super Soba, Mark of the War God, Maybe Battle Dogi, Yamasenken, Herb's move list, Happosai's Ki's reserves vs Hayate?
Also think Ma Kensei is married to an one of the Joketsuzoku women?
All the Masters can shred steel and concrete like it's not even there, and 1% of Hayate's strength was enough that a single punch leveled an entire forest flat through sheer wind pressure.
Kenichi pays lip-service to strength in the sense that strength isn't the focus. That doesn't mean someone like Akisame couldn't knock Ranma or Ryoga the fuck out. He'll just tell you that the real innovation is his muscle conditioning and his new Akido form, because brute strength "is something any thug could acquire."
That doesn't change the fact that Hayate would crush Happosai without even trying. I stand by what I said before. Ranma is a Master class by the end of the manga. Happosai is a Top Tier Master. Hayate shits out Top Tier Masters whenever he gets a bad case of indigestion.
Resourcefulness isn't going to help you against a guy with over three hundred original techniques, every one of which is revolutionary and could have entire schools built around it, all of which he came up with because he was bored.
I agree with the idea that nobody cares about Happosai because they all think he's dead. That seems like the best way to go. It could also work in the sense that they don't want to believe he's back, because he's such an embarrassment. So they tend to keep insisting that he's not around even when it's rather obvious he is.
Wrong. Only one known martial technique keeps you youthful, and it requires a spoonful-by-spoonful strict diet, insanely complex martial training, and specific ki cultivation. Only one person is known to actively use it (the female Soft Art Black Sun Grandmaster), and it's also implied that she's the one who invented it. Roughly two hundred or so years ago, give or take. So clearly, it works.
Kenichi pays lip-service to strength in the sense that strength isn't the focus. That doesn't mean someone like Akisame couldn't knock Ranma or Ryoga the fuck out. He'll just tell you that the real innovation is his muscle conditioning and his new Akido form, because brute strength "is something any thug could acquire."
That doesn't change the fact that Hayate would crush Happosai without even trying. I stand by what I said before. Ranma is a Master class by the end of the manga. Happosai is a Top Tier Master. Hayate shits out Top Tier Masters whenever he gets a bad case of indigestion.
Resourcefulness isn't going to help you against a guy with over three hundred original techniques, every one of which is revolutionary and could have entire schools built around it, all of which he came up with because he was bored.
I agree with the idea that nobody cares about Happosai because they all think he's dead. That seems like the best way to go. It could also work in the sense that they don't want to believe he's back, because he's such an embarrassment. So they tend to keep insisting that he's not around even when it's rather obvious he is.
Wrong. Only one known martial technique keeps you youthful, and it requires a spoonful-by-spoonful strict diet, insanely complex martial training, and specific ki cultivation. Only one person is known to actively use it (the female Soft Art Black Sun Grandmaster), and it's also implied that she's the one who invented it. Roughly two hundred or so years ago, give or take. So clearly, it works.
Right lets get this thread back on track with ideas for Lost Star if hes reading this still.
Idea is set after the Magic Mushroom Arc
Ranma and Ryoga manage to accidentally destroy the mushrooms, preventing them from returning to their right ages. They fight and bicker then start to look for some mushrooms. Ranma and Ryoga ask Nabiki for help, She agrees for her price does some google-fu and finds out theres an Auction/sale for a few magic mushrooms.
The Mushrooms are damn expensive and Ranma and Ryoga can't buy it, The Tendo's get an Invitation to the DOFD for some reason or another. Ranma and Ryoga hearing that the Tournament has enough prize money to get their mushrooms join in.
The news eventually reaches the Fiancees Ukyo, Shampoo, maybe Kodachi/Tatewaki join in to help out Ranma, Mousse is locked up to prevent sabotage by Cologne, He escapes. Using the Kuno fortune or an Amazon boat to travel to their destination.
Ya, this Team is likely overpowered but theirs going to be a significant amount of infighting before, during and after matches if we keep their rivalries and personalities intact.
So, Tournament passes win or lose the Nermians still get their money by either Genma robbing Fortuna, or just tricking Tatewaki to make use of the Kuno Fortune to get the mushrooms. Maybe change Canon to keep Shou alive because I generally like him.
Each of the Nermians is given an invitation to Yomi some disagree and some join like Mousse and the Kuno's maybe Ryoga if teaming up with Ranma hasn't changed his personality. Given Yami/Yomi's power they could easily coax Ranma to join with a cure (he is willing to do anything for a cure).
Don't really know how to proceed from there, but this was just a quick idea. If your wondering about Happosai and Cologne have the world still think Happosai died when he was locked up, Cologne could be one of those unknown and undiscovered martial artists in China. Its Canon that theirs still powerful masters that remain hidden throughout the world.
Idea is set after the Magic Mushroom Arc
Ranma and Ryoga manage to accidentally destroy the mushrooms, preventing them from returning to their right ages. They fight and bicker then start to look for some mushrooms. Ranma and Ryoga ask Nabiki for help, She agrees for her price does some google-fu and finds out theres an Auction/sale for a few magic mushrooms.
The Mushrooms are damn expensive and Ranma and Ryoga can't buy it, The Tendo's get an Invitation to the DOFD for some reason or another. Ranma and Ryoga hearing that the Tournament has enough prize money to get their mushrooms join in.
The news eventually reaches the Fiancees Ukyo, Shampoo, maybe Kodachi/Tatewaki join in to help out Ranma, Mousse is locked up to prevent sabotage by Cologne, He escapes. Using the Kuno fortune or an Amazon boat to travel to their destination.
Ya, this Team is likely overpowered but theirs going to be a significant amount of infighting before, during and after matches if we keep their rivalries and personalities intact.
So, Tournament passes win or lose the Nermians still get their money by either Genma robbing Fortuna, or just tricking Tatewaki to make use of the Kuno Fortune to get the mushrooms. Maybe change Canon to keep Shou alive because I generally like him.
Each of the Nermians is given an invitation to Yomi some disagree and some join like Mousse and the Kuno's maybe Ryoga if teaming up with Ranma hasn't changed his personality. Given Yami/Yomi's power they could easily coax Ranma to join with a cure (he is willing to do anything for a cure).
Don't really know how to proceed from there, but this was just a quick idea. If your wondering about Happosai and Cologne have the world still think Happosai died when he was locked up, Cologne could be one of those unknown and undiscovered martial artists in China. Its Canon that theirs still powerful masters that remain hidden throughout the world.
Fact: Ranma at his very absolute best was Happosai's complete and total bitch.
If Happosai is the example of Mastery by Ranmaverse standards, then Ranma is probably never going to be a Master. Apparently, you've read so much Stu-ified fanfiction, you've come under the delusion that Ranma is entirely about martial arts. It's not. It's a comedy. A wacky, crazy, over-the-top comedy with kung-fu pandas and transgender protagonists and angry pigs and people who fight with ice skates. The strength of the characters fluctuates in tune to "what would be the funniest at any given moment." And at no point has anyone in-verse ever even been remotely good enough to actually fight Happposai. I know this because I've read nearly the entire manga, but have never read any of it's fanfiction. Ever. None of it. The second strongest character is (for the most part) Ranma, and Ranma has ALWAYS fallen HILARIOUSLY short of even being able sit in the stands of the ballpark that Happosai plays in. Why? Because it's funny. But it's also the truth. Not only is Ranma not even 1% as good as Happosai is, but if Happosai is the measure of a Master in the Ranmaverse, then Ranma will very likely never be a Master.
And that's fine. Because it's not about becoming the most badass motherfucker ever. It never has been. That's why I like Ranma 1/2. It's not about training and training and more training until your pecs have pecs and you can eat adversity and shit it out as lightning at your enemies, who cower in fearful fear at your mighty bunghole of DOOM. It's about surviving the nonsense that happens in day-to-day life in a place that seems to run on batshit insanity and horribly awkward coincidences. And martial artists who make martial arts out of everything and are all a few bats short of a belfry.
If Happosai is the example of Mastery by Ranmaverse standards, then Ranma is probably never going to be a Master. Apparently, you've read so much Stu-ified fanfiction, you've come under the delusion that Ranma is entirely about martial arts. It's not. It's a comedy. A wacky, crazy, over-the-top comedy with kung-fu pandas and transgender protagonists and angry pigs and people who fight with ice skates. The strength of the characters fluctuates in tune to "what would be the funniest at any given moment." And at no point has anyone in-verse ever even been remotely good enough to actually fight Happposai. I know this because I've read nearly the entire manga, but have never read any of it's fanfiction. Ever. None of it. The second strongest character is (for the most part) Ranma, and Ranma has ALWAYS fallen HILARIOUSLY short of even being able sit in the stands of the ballpark that Happosai plays in. Why? Because it's funny. But it's also the truth. Not only is Ranma not even 1% as good as Happosai is, but if Happosai is the measure of a Master in the Ranmaverse, then Ranma will very likely never be a Master.
And that's fine. Because it's not about becoming the most badass motherfucker ever. It never has been. That's why I like Ranma 1/2. It's not about training and training and more training until your pecs have pecs and you can eat adversity and shit it out as lightning at your enemies, who cower in fearful fear at your mighty bunghole of DOOM. It's about surviving the nonsense that happens in day-to-day life in a place that seems to run on batshit insanity and horribly awkward coincidences. And martial artists who make martial arts out of everything and are all a few bats short of a belfry.