Naruto Invent a Rasengan Derivative!
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Ura Mamoru, your explanation makes much sense. Any other elemental Rasen-thingy probably wouldn't automatically work at the cellular or microscopic level.
Damn bad gateways ate my post. *sigh* Apologies if this post comes off as curt, it's just laziness on my part.
Have to disagree with you on the bolded text. Naruto 339, pages 12+13. Kakashi asks Naruto to smash his Wind Rasengan into his regular one as hard as he can. Unless the opposing rotations somehow cancelled each other out or something, if the WR: Rasengan was just a slightly smaller Rasenshuriken without the fins, Kakashi's hand should have been way more damaged. Enough that he couldn't have gone on that mission with Team 10 only a little while later. Plus he wouldn't have been surprised when the Rasenshuriken proper cut Kakuzu at the microscopic level. So it appears that the Rasenshuriken does take the cutting aspect to a whole new level.
I like the Rasenrocket, but why exactly can it be guided remotely? The only two katon jutsu that I can think of that could be manipulated after being fired are Sasuke's Phoenix Flower Jutsu, and the fire dragon technique Sarutobi used. I imagine a flight path could be "pre-programmed," though. You could have small amounts of fire chakra let out of the sides of the rocket at set times, like side-mounted vernier thrusters, so it could turn corners or make a 180, but only if you "told" it to do that before you threw it.
Earth Release: Rasengan is as good as always, and drills are supposed to be able to go through several hundred feet of solid rock (and several Earth Release techniques involve travelling through the earth,) but what does earth-natured chakra have to do with elasticity or springiness? In my prior post, I mentioned how Earth Release techniques are all about changing the strength of the earth, all the way from mud to rock. But I forgot about two very interesting moves: Onoki's Earth Release: Added-Weight Rock Technique, and Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique and Ultralight-Weight Rock Technique.
So how about this for an Earth Release: Rasen____? You take the Doton: Rasengan, and make it bigger, by adding chakra and concentrating it further, then you adjust it's weight until it's light enough you can throw it extremely quickly, but then, when it's just about to hit the your target, it becomes incredibly heavy instead, enough that the impact would completely crush their bones and pulp their organs.
I can't think of a single lightning jutsu that had electromagnetic properties, can you? We have Magnet Release after all. Natural lightning is faster and more powerful than lightning chakra anyway. Hence why Sasuke's Kirin is so good. And the Raikage's lightning armour seems to ignore every other rule we've seen about lightning jutsu. What does accelerating your own nerve impulses have to be with piercing, vibration or paralysis? Actually, if the lightning chakra interferes with the nervous system of the victim, I suppose the Raikage could basically just be doing the opposite. Hmm. Raiton: Rasengan pierces, paralyses, and gives you a speed boost like a weaker version of A's technique? But then what would the Raiton: Rasen-blank do? Destroy the victim's nervous system?
I still like my previous ideas for the Suiton: Rasen-insert-word-here. If it hits somebody, it fills all the empty spaces inside a person with water. Their lungs, so they drown. Their stomach and most of their other internal organs burst like an over-full water balloon.
...Man, I'm really channelling my inner sociopath here. Seriously, when I re-read those last few sentences, my inner monologue had Dexter Morgan's voice.
Damn bad gateways ate my post. *sigh* Apologies if this post comes off as curt, it's just laziness on my part.
Have to disagree with you on the bolded text. Naruto 339, pages 12+13. Kakashi asks Naruto to smash his Wind Rasengan into his regular one as hard as he can. Unless the opposing rotations somehow cancelled each other out or something, if the WR: Rasengan was just a slightly smaller Rasenshuriken without the fins, Kakashi's hand should have been way more damaged. Enough that he couldn't have gone on that mission with Team 10 only a little while later. Plus he wouldn't have been surprised when the Rasenshuriken proper cut Kakuzu at the microscopic level. So it appears that the Rasenshuriken does take the cutting aspect to a whole new level.
I like the Rasenrocket, but why exactly can it be guided remotely? The only two katon jutsu that I can think of that could be manipulated after being fired are Sasuke's Phoenix Flower Jutsu, and the fire dragon technique Sarutobi used. I imagine a flight path could be "pre-programmed," though. You could have small amounts of fire chakra let out of the sides of the rocket at set times, like side-mounted vernier thrusters, so it could turn corners or make a 180, but only if you "told" it to do that before you threw it.
Earth Release: Rasengan is as good as always, and drills are supposed to be able to go through several hundred feet of solid rock (and several Earth Release techniques involve travelling through the earth,) but what does earth-natured chakra have to do with elasticity or springiness? In my prior post, I mentioned how Earth Release techniques are all about changing the strength of the earth, all the way from mud to rock. But I forgot about two very interesting moves: Onoki's Earth Release: Added-Weight Rock Technique, and Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique and Ultralight-Weight Rock Technique.
So how about this for an Earth Release: Rasen____? You take the Doton: Rasengan, and make it bigger, by adding chakra and concentrating it further, then you adjust it's weight until it's light enough you can throw it extremely quickly, but then, when it's just about to hit the your target, it becomes incredibly heavy instead, enough that the impact would completely crush their bones and pulp their organs.
I can't think of a single lightning jutsu that had electromagnetic properties, can you? We have Magnet Release after all. Natural lightning is faster and more powerful than lightning chakra anyway. Hence why Sasuke's Kirin is so good. And the Raikage's lightning armour seems to ignore every other rule we've seen about lightning jutsu. What does accelerating your own nerve impulses have to be with piercing, vibration or paralysis? Actually, if the lightning chakra interferes with the nervous system of the victim, I suppose the Raikage could basically just be doing the opposite. Hmm. Raiton: Rasengan pierces, paralyses, and gives you a speed boost like a weaker version of A's technique? But then what would the Raiton: Rasen-blank do? Destroy the victim's nervous system?
I still like my previous ideas for the Suiton: Rasen-insert-word-here. If it hits somebody, it fills all the empty spaces inside a person with water. Their lungs, so they drown. Their stomach and most of their other internal organs burst like an over-full water balloon.
...Man, I'm really channelling my inner sociopath here. Seriously, when I re-read those last few sentences, my inner monologue had Dexter Morgan's voice.
Wow, yeah okay that was a bad memory on my part. For some reason I was convinced that Naruto had use Wind Release Rasengan on Kakuzu, since he didn't throw it. I forgot that Naruto never actually used Wind Release Rasengan in battle, so we don't actually know exactly how much damage it would do. Which is kind of weird, you'd think that Naruto would try it at least once before inventing a new and improved version of it.
Also he invented it pretty damn fast, didn't he just master Wind Release Rasengan as Shikimaru, Ino and Chouji were setting out to hunt down Kakuzu and Hidan? And yet he'd already invented Rasenshuriken by the time he'd followed them to provide backup. Holy shit, I thought Sasuke was supposed to be the genius?
Yeah that probably makes more sense. I guess I just liked the the user guiding the rockets after a fleeing opponent like Yamcha's Spirit Ball technique in DBZ.
Err, it's like low low-density earth chakra with a special bouncy crystal structure... yeah okay that's stupid. I just really loved the idea of throwing a bouncing super death ball in a small room and watching it make Swiss cheese outta someone. Throwing a giant mega-dense Earth Rasengan like a fast ball with the built in Light-Weight Rock technique and watching it crush/drill some poor bastard and digging a 15 foot wide tunnel through that mountain behind him is way better.
Good point. This is another reminder that elemental chakra in the Narutoverse is actually a man-made artificial replica of the real element and doesn't perfectly duplicate all of the same behaviors and properties. Lightning chakra isn't electromagnetic energy, it's chakra imperfectly mimicking the electric half of electromagnetic energy. There are going to be times when it doesn't behave how you might expect.
That makes it harder to come up with a good Lighting Release Rasengan that isn't just a chidori/rasengan fusion. And having it somehow make you faster feels like a copout. Hmmm... didn't the databook say that Lightning Release are good at being diffused over a large area? Perhaps Lighting Release Rasengan can use that. When the jutsu destabilizes without contacting a target, instead of throwing the released chakra blades everywhere mostly harmlessly the user can direct them all towards the target. This lets you turn a compact blender killing sphere into a large number of electrified chakra blades that cover a large area and are much harder to dodge. It does much less damage that way but it can paralyze the target with electricity, making it easier to land a proper rasengan death blow on them.
I don't really like it but I can't explain why. Maybe I'm just too squeamish for that mental image. But I can't think of anything better so I guess it'll have to do!
Also he invented it pretty damn fast, didn't he just master Wind Release Rasengan as Shikimaru, Ino and Chouji were setting out to hunt down Kakuzu and Hidan? And yet he'd already invented Rasenshuriken by the time he'd followed them to provide backup. Holy shit, I thought Sasuke was supposed to be the genius?
Yeah that probably makes more sense. I guess I just liked the the user guiding the rockets after a fleeing opponent like Yamcha's Spirit Ball technique in DBZ.
Err, it's like low low-density earth chakra with a special bouncy crystal structure... yeah okay that's stupid. I just really loved the idea of throwing a bouncing super death ball in a small room and watching it make Swiss cheese outta someone. Throwing a giant mega-dense Earth Rasengan like a fast ball with the built in Light-Weight Rock technique and watching it crush/drill some poor bastard and digging a 15 foot wide tunnel through that mountain behind him is way better.
Good point. This is another reminder that elemental chakra in the Narutoverse is actually a man-made artificial replica of the real element and doesn't perfectly duplicate all of the same behaviors and properties. Lightning chakra isn't electromagnetic energy, it's chakra imperfectly mimicking the electric half of electromagnetic energy. There are going to be times when it doesn't behave how you might expect.
That makes it harder to come up with a good Lighting Release Rasengan that isn't just a chidori/rasengan fusion. And having it somehow make you faster feels like a copout. Hmmm... didn't the databook say that Lightning Release are good at being diffused over a large area? Perhaps Lighting Release Rasengan can use that. When the jutsu destabilizes without contacting a target, instead of throwing the released chakra blades everywhere mostly harmlessly the user can direct them all towards the target. This lets you turn a compact blender killing sphere into a large number of electrified chakra blades that cover a large area and are much harder to dodge. It does much less damage that way but it can paralyze the target with electricity, making it easier to land a proper rasengan death blow on them.
I don't really like it but I can't explain why. Maybe I'm just too squeamish for that mental image. But I can't think of anything better so I guess it'll have to do!
Katon: Rasenbakudan. It's a bomb. Pretty much Jiraiya's GÅen Rasengan, but made of burning chakra.
Raiton: RasentÅya. Un unstoppable explosive piercing bullet. The drilling motion combined with the Raiton chakra does pierce pretty much anything. Think Chidori. A Chidori you can throw. A chidori you can throw and then make EXPLODE.
Raiton: RasentÅya. Un unstoppable explosive piercing bullet. The drilling motion combined with the Raiton chakra does pierce pretty much anything. Think Chidori. A Chidori you can throw. A chidori you can throw and then make EXPLODE.
More likely Rasenshuriken is just an advanced form of fuuton:rasengan where everything was perfected just a bit more. Still, it is a bit odd that its never ever used. Even if it was just FRS in incomplete form, it was still superiour to normal rasengan and lacked the giant explosion part of FRS which makes FRS a bit cumbersome in some situations.
For example, why arent all the rasengan variants Naruto uses in KCM infused with enough wind to become fuuton:rasengans but not fullblown FRS. I think at this stage, whenever he goes basic rasengan, it should be fuuton:rasengan instead.
Not sure if it was anime only or if it also happened in the manga, but in SM Naruto seemed able to remotely trigger the expansion of FRS. If it happened in the manga too, then that would imply that in SM atleast, its possible to have some remote control over techniques.
In KCM ofcourse, Naruto could just direct anything anywhere with a long-range chakra-arm.
For example, why arent all the rasengan variants Naruto uses in KCM infused with enough wind to become fuuton:rasengans but not fullblown FRS. I think at this stage, whenever he goes basic rasengan, it should be fuuton:rasengan instead.
Not sure if it was anime only or if it also happened in the manga, but in SM Naruto seemed able to remotely trigger the expansion of FRS. If it happened in the manga too, then that would imply that in SM atleast, its possible to have some remote control over techniques.
In KCM ofcourse, Naruto could just direct anything anywhere with a long-range chakra-arm.
Depends on exactly how he went from the WR:R to the WR:RS. The way I figured it works, the regular Rasengan's not "big enough" for the amount of wind chakra that Naruto was putting into it, and the wind blades inside the sphere were a little too tightly packed. Naruto's sitting there with the WR: Rasengan in his hand, thinking "This is pretty good, but it could be stronger. Maybe if I made it bigger..." I mean, the Rasenshuriken is basically a Big Ball Wind Rasengan, isn't it? I think the Odama Rasengan and the core of the Rasenshuriken are about the same size. And becuase the wind chakra was less pressed together the blades extend to the sides?
Chakra's always struck me as being more... impersonal than Ki attacks. I don't think that a dbz character has ever been hurt by their own Ki blast. Well, Frieza and his own kienzan, but it wasn't so much the energy of the attack that hurt him, but the incredible sharp edge.
Well, if Kumo's Dodai ever learns the Rasengan, or Naruto turns out to have his form of Lava Release, bouncy death is more than possible! And your desciption of the Rasen-Rocks-Fall-Everyone-Dies sounds pretty awesome.
Between Sasuke, Kakashi, the Raikages, and Darui, I can't help but feel that Kishimoto's exhausted the options for lightning techniques.
Well, knight504 brought up the link between the Rasenshuriken and the reaction people with a wind affinity get from the special chakra paper.
Wind cuts the paper, so the Rasenshuriken is the ultimate cutting technique with an expansion trick. A fuma shuriken is also quite an aerodynamic shape, so I bet the Rasenshuriken is the slowest to lose momentum over longer distances.
Fire burns the paper, so the "Rasenroketto" is the ultimate burning technique, with the energy released from the attack causing an exothermic explosion, and although fire doesn't have a secondary property like lightning's piercing/vibration, the jutsu can be "programmed" with a flight path through shape manipulation.
Water, perhaps the most versatile of the five elements, capable of being manipulated into a variety of shapes, dampens the paper, so the Rasen-super-soaker (Rasenbubble?) is the ultimate drenching technique, with the Water chakra in the technique entering the victim's body through available opening like any open wounds, the mouth, the ears, and even the pores, just as water seeps into the cracks of rocks and metals. It can be manipulated into a variety of shapes, but in zero-gravity, water takes the shape of a sphere, so I'm thinking that the further the technique travels from the user, the more it starts to return to the sphere shape of the Rasengan. It might actually "wobble" a little bit while moving as well.
Earth... causes the paper to turn into dirt and crumble away, which actually sort of supports my earlier petrification idea, but honestly the paper crumbling sounds like the reaction that a dust affinity should cause, so screw it, we're going with the Rasen-Mass Effect idea!
As knight504 mentioned, Lightning wrinkles the paper. I don't know whether that's an effect of the vibrations, or what. At high voltages paper stops being an insulator, and a voltage high enough to make that happen but not high enough to make the paper catch fire might make the paper wrinkle in some way, I don't know. Lightning's secondary property is vibrations creating additional piercing power, so the Raiton: Rasen-Tesla looks like ball lightning, has enough piercing power that Hashirama's Quintuple Rashomon technique is about the only thing capable of blocking it, and destroys the nervous system of whoever it hits. That said, it's my impression that, on average, long-range lightning jutsu aren't actually as fast as long-range wind techniques. so the Rasentesla should actually be slower than the Rasenshuriken.
Chakra's always struck me as being more... impersonal than Ki attacks. I don't think that a dbz character has ever been hurt by their own Ki blast. Well, Frieza and his own kienzan, but it wasn't so much the energy of the attack that hurt him, but the incredible sharp edge.
Well, if Kumo's Dodai ever learns the Rasengan, or Naruto turns out to have his form of Lava Release, bouncy death is more than possible! And your desciption of the Rasen-Rocks-Fall-Everyone-Dies sounds pretty awesome.
Between Sasuke, Kakashi, the Raikages, and Darui, I can't help but feel that Kishimoto's exhausted the options for lightning techniques.
Well, knight504 brought up the link between the Rasenshuriken and the reaction people with a wind affinity get from the special chakra paper.
Wind cuts the paper, so the Rasenshuriken is the ultimate cutting technique with an expansion trick. A fuma shuriken is also quite an aerodynamic shape, so I bet the Rasenshuriken is the slowest to lose momentum over longer distances.
Fire burns the paper, so the "Rasenroketto" is the ultimate burning technique, with the energy released from the attack causing an exothermic explosion, and although fire doesn't have a secondary property like lightning's piercing/vibration, the jutsu can be "programmed" with a flight path through shape manipulation.
Water, perhaps the most versatile of the five elements, capable of being manipulated into a variety of shapes, dampens the paper, so the Rasen-super-soaker (Rasenbubble?) is the ultimate drenching technique, with the Water chakra in the technique entering the victim's body through available opening like any open wounds, the mouth, the ears, and even the pores, just as water seeps into the cracks of rocks and metals. It can be manipulated into a variety of shapes, but in zero-gravity, water takes the shape of a sphere, so I'm thinking that the further the technique travels from the user, the more it starts to return to the sphere shape of the Rasengan. It might actually "wobble" a little bit while moving as well.
Earth... causes the paper to turn into dirt and crumble away, which actually sort of supports my earlier petrification idea, but honestly the paper crumbling sounds like the reaction that a dust affinity should cause, so screw it, we're going with the Rasen-Mass Effect idea!
As knight504 mentioned, Lightning wrinkles the paper. I don't know whether that's an effect of the vibrations, or what. At high voltages paper stops being an insulator, and a voltage high enough to make that happen but not high enough to make the paper catch fire might make the paper wrinkle in some way, I don't know. Lightning's secondary property is vibrations creating additional piercing power, so the Raiton: Rasen-Tesla looks like ball lightning, has enough piercing power that Hashirama's Quintuple Rashomon technique is about the only thing capable of blocking it, and destroys the nervous system of whoever it hits. That said, it's my impression that, on average, long-range lightning jutsu aren't actually as fast as long-range wind techniques. so the Rasentesla should actually be slower than the Rasenshuriken.
Now I'm imagining what Ninja baseball would look like. Naruto and Sakura are both pitchers with Naruto using rasengan variants and Sakura having the fastest fastball on the team. Naruto would be an average batter and Sakura making home runs whenever she can hit it. Sasuke of course would always hit the ball plus he would use his chidori to increase his batting speed.
So when Naruto threw that Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken in chapter 673, I figured that pretty much all of this old thread was completely invalidated, as taking any Elemental Rasengan to the highest level resulted in an Elemental Rasenshuriken.
But a few minutes ago, I was looking at the entry for the Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken, and I noticed that it was both a Lava Release and a Wind Release technique. Meaning that it was just a Wind Release: Rasenshuriken with Lava-natured chakra thrown in.
That also means that Naruto's Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken, the "KÅ«zenzetsugo no Ninjutsu," is nine Wind Release: Rasenshurikens, each with other stuff thrown in.
So instead of it being:
It's:
This also means that other "2nd level Elemental Rasengans" still might have different shapes than a Shuriken.
But a few minutes ago, I was looking at the entry for the Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken, and I noticed that it was both a Lava Release and a Wind Release technique. Meaning that it was just a Wind Release: Rasenshuriken with Lava-natured chakra thrown in.
That also means that Naruto's Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken, the "KÅ«zenzetsugo no Ninjutsu," is nine Wind Release: Rasenshurikens, each with other stuff thrown in.
So instead of it being:
It's:
This also means that other "2nd level Elemental Rasengans" still might have different shapes than a Shuriken.
...
Edit:
Rasenshuriken has always been synomous with Fuuton: Rasenshuriken in the manga, hasn't it? And it did cut through the Shinju.
knight, sorry to be presumptuous, but I don't suppose they'll be a translation for the SA:LRR anytime soon, will there? Or is there not even an entry for it? I can't find one.
Edit:
Rasenshuriken has always been synomous with Fuuton: Rasenshuriken in the manga, hasn't it? And it did cut through the Shinju.
knight, sorry to be presumptuous, but I don't suppose they'll be a translation for the SA:LRR anytime soon, will there? Or is there not even an entry for it? I can't find one.
I guess there won't be any more detail on the Lava Release Rasenshuriken beyond that info box unless it's in the rest of the text on those pages or if there's some mention in Naruto's profile.
It does sound like it's a WR:RS with Son Goku's Lava Release added on top though so it seems they're right.
It does sound like it's a WR:RS with Son Goku's Lava Release added on top though so it seems they're right.
Let's remember SenpÅ: Jiton Rasengan and FÅ«ton Rasegnan.
In short, we always thought Rasenshuriken=Rasengan+Wind. Obviously, it's not.
Most likely, Naruto did manage to add Wind to the Rasengan(making FÅ«ton Rasengan), then applied ulterior Shape Manipulation to it turning it into the Rasenshuriken to max out its effects.
Therefore the Rasenshuriken could be used with any element. That said, Rasenshuriken is most likely NOT the most effective way to use the various elements(except Wind), but even Naruto's improvisation skill has its limit.
In short, we always thought Rasenshuriken=Rasengan+Wind. Obviously, it's not.
Most likely, Naruto did manage to add Wind to the Rasengan(making FÅ«ton Rasengan), then applied ulterior Shape Manipulation to it turning it into the Rasenshuriken to max out its effects.
Therefore the Rasenshuriken could be used with any element. That said, Rasenshuriken is most likely NOT the most effective way to use the various elements(except Wind), but even Naruto's improvisation skill has its limit.
Hmm. Not necessarily. The Dust Release: Detachment of the Primitive World Technique involves capturing the target within the confines of the shaped structure, and then pulversing them into particles of dust. I don't really see how the Jinton: Rasen-cone/cylinder/cube would really be an improvement on this, except in one aspect:
It would be a "fire-and-forget" technique. Which, considering that both Onoki and Mu have to actively concentrate to maintain the Dust Release: Detachment of the Primitive World Technique, would actually be a pretty significant upgrade.
It would be a "fire-and-forget" technique. Which, considering that both Onoki and Mu have to actively concentrate to maintain the Dust Release: Detachment of the Primitive World Technique, would actually be a pretty significant upgrade.