Levels of Density

[goldenarms]

So, I made a quick sketch of levels of a main character's denseness can achieve.

Levels of Denseness

1 - In the Dark
2 - The Friendzoner
3 - Clueless Bud
4 - Average Guy
5 - Oblivious
6 - In Denial
7 - Cannot Register
8 - Pants off. Now!
9 - Seriously???
10- Rejector of Reality

1 - In the Dark

These people are unaware of others' feelings because either their crushes way too good at keeping things on the downlow, or none of them has managed to muster up the courage to approach. It's very hard to shame these people for they are not getting the proper signs to begin with.

2 - The Friendzoner

These people don't seem to think in terms of the opposite sex liking them like that; instead, they put everyone on the same level, for better or for worse, by default. Game tends to change when someone does decide to challenge their zoned-life.

3 - Clueless Bud

Well, it's obvious someone likes our main man, but he doesn't quite see it her way. She's giving him some clues, but they're either clumsy or badly timed. This is the guy that needs an outsider to help him understand what's what.

4 - Average Peep

We tend to suck at understanding the opposite sex. Men require more directness, while women run on more subtle cues. Can be overcome with proper training and understanding.

5 - Oblivious

A bit denser than the average peep, these folks are not paying attention when giving a bigger hint about someone liking them, usually because they're off thinking about other stuff, even though it's reasonably certain the Oblivious is not about to turn down a shot at love.

6 - In Denial

The sort of person that had a bad experience with the opposite gender in the past and acts much like the Friendzoner, only much harder to convince of someone's ability to like them. Usually frail ego involved; will require dedication, as well as maybe some dosage of therapy.

7 - Does Not Compute

Folks with no self confidence in themselves tend to auto-reject the concept of the opposite sex liking them and therefore requires a lot more to get the message across. Calls for therapy to correct, as well as a whole lot of patience, as DNCers can be frustrating to bear.

8 - Pants Off. Now!

These folks cannot be swayed by words alone and tend to require much more drastic measures to be taken. If that means locking them up with that special someone(s) in a soundproof room to =AHEM= work it out, then so be it. Just make certain said room is suitably well-stocked -- it might take a while.

9 - Seriously???

No way in hell are these people this obtuse! They have got to be pretending not to notice; it's the only thing that makes sense! For what reason, we don't know, but this level of denseness is insane! Only a miracle can save these people's admirers from a lifetime of unrequited feelings!

10 - Rejector of Reality
For the love of God, these rare breed of people are so dense, they exerts their own gravitational fields that constantly drag in more pining souls to crush their hopes and dreams involving them together. If there's a soul mate for every person out there, maybe they alone can stand up to the Rejector's power, but I'm highly doubting it.

If it needs to be tweaked, or whatnot, let me know. If you have a guy in mind, go ahead and list him and we can rank him. Just keep in mind, he must be a guy that genuinely doesn't know about others' feelings, and not someone that intentionally disavows romantic gestures.

 

[Hoki]

I got a few. I suppose I can rate them based on these criteria and people may or may not agree with me

= Natsuru Sennoh (Kampfer): Either a 9 or a 10, in the anime at least, as he is too fixated on the (hot but probably lesbian) villain to notice three other equally hot women that are pining for him. Most are familiar with the date episode that he insisted was not a date, but a scouting mission. Probably changing into a lady doesn't help much in his case. I think he somehow hooks up with the glasses girl/violent redhead in the LN?

= Ichika Onimura (Infinite Stratos): Definitely 9. No way in hell can he not notice the affections being thrown at him by the all-female members of his school, especially the girls he is closest with, one of which actually declaring him to be her wife. May or may not be a siscon, but with Chifuyu Onimura, hailed as basically a goddess of war and beauty, as a sister means any girl has big shoes to fill in order to win him over.

= Akiharu Hino (Ladies X Butlers): Starts off as a 5 as he's kinda just a nice guy with a delinquent look. Escalates to 6 when it is revealed that he has a bit of a bad experience with this one girl who kept trolling him in elementary school. Turns into 9 during the last episode when he gets smacked by the two lead girls who are competing to go on a date with him, with others even commenting how dense he was.

= Shinji Ikari (Neon Genesis Evangelion): Either a 6 or a 7, as his very low self-esteem doesn't even register the fact that he can be loved by anyone. In his mind, he's pathetic and a loser, so why would anyone even take a passing glance at him. A tragic case, I'd say.

I put Hayate Ayasaki earlier but I realized he seems to be aware of women's affections towards him, yet he avoids any romantic relationships with them because he deems himself unworthy of any women due to his perpetual poverty and bad luck.

 

[PCHeintz72]

my main comment with the descriptions of each level is that you assume we are talking about a man...

There are anime girls with various levels of density in them as well.

As such, you probably should alter this list so that each category and description is gender neural...

 

[Ordo]

= Akiharu Hino (Ladies X Butlers): Starts off as a 5 as he's kinda just a nice guy with a delinquent look. Escalates to 6 when it is revealed that he has a bit of a bad experience with this one girl who kept trolling him in elementary school. Turns into 9 during the last episode when he gets smacked by the two lead girls who are competing to go on a date with him, with others even commenting how dense he was.

The writer had to make him dense because if he actually realized the truth the series would be over. Honestly who would 99% of men choose....the Tsunderish girl that had the guts to actually kiss you....or the woman who has, and continues to treat you, like her own personal chew toy?

 

[goldenarms]

I got a few. I suppose I can rate them based on these criteria and people may or may not agree with me

= Natsuru Sennoh (Kampfer): Either a 9 or a 10, in the anime at least, as he is too fixated on the (hot but probably lesbian) villain to notice three other equally hot women that are pining for him. Most are familiar with the date episode that he insisted was not a date, but a scouting mission. Probably changing into a lady doesn't help much in his case. I think he somehow hooks up with the glasses girl/violent redhead in the LN?

Incidentally, I was working on this one before deciding not to. I had rated him a solid 6, partly in because he is so fixated on Sakura Kaede, even though she admitted that 1) she was a lesbian, and 2) she only wanted the female Natsuru (and then she turns out to be the Big Bad of the series).

Though admittedly, I find evil girls to be pretty hot.

Once Natsuru rejected her and chooses to stay a guy, I'm pretty certain he had no actual troubles accepting any of the girls' feelings for him (LN, he chooses Akane; manga, he chooses Shizuku; anime, he chooses all three, IIRC). So, his denseness is born of his one-itis over Sakura and never being able to consider anyone else seriously, which, thanks to his gender-switching powers, made him a very popular target for girls to do bad, bad things to him.

my main comment with the descriptions of each level is that you assume we are talking about a man...

There are anime girls with various levels of density in them as well.

As such, you probably should alter this list so that each category and description is gender neural...

Yeah, that was something I had thought of as well. Actually writing everything gender neutral, though was giving me a headache, since it was a mock up at the time, and subject to alterations, so I just went with default male.

= Akiharu Hino (Ladies X Butlers): Starts off as a 5 as he's kinda just a nice guy with a delinquent look. Escalates to 6 when it is revealed that he has a bit of a bad experience with this one girl who kept trolling him in elementary school. Turns into 9 during the last episode when he gets smacked by the two lead girls who are competing to go on a date with him, with others even commenting how dense he was.

The writer had to make him dense because if he actually realized the truth the series would be over. Honestly who would 99% of men choose....the Tsunderish girl that had the guts to actually kiss you....or the woman who has, and continues to treat you, like her own personal chew toy?

Proof of terrible writing when you have to lower folks' IQs so that the story will work out the way you want it to. <_<

Okay, adding to the list:

= Naruto Uzumaki (Naruto): 8

He remains a pretty interesting case as he's supposed to be super-empathic, but at the same time, he completely blows the shot when it's applied to himself. Even if you don't like Hinata, you have to admit, the only way Naruto could have flubbed her confession as anything other than what she meant is if this guy sincerely had issues identifying romantic feelings towards himself. Which isn't that much of a stretch, given his childhood upbringing. Compounded by the fact that, had it been any other kunoichi out there, Naruto would have likely been married before the war began, since it's very hard to imagine them letting him get away without giving any response for two days, let alone two-plus years. In the end, Naruto had to go memory-surfing to discover that, no, he was kind of wrong all this time and that he was pretty much a dick for taking so long to acknowledge her feelings.

 

[Ordo]

Proof of terrible writing when you have to lower folks' IQs so that the story will work out the way you want it to. <_<

Officially, I think it's called The idiot ball.

But I do not disagree with your assessment. That series annoyed me because it expected me to believe that a guy would actually consider dating the woman that's been trolling him since Kindergarten. Now I fully understand that some girls bully the ones they love (I'm looking at YOU Helga G. Pataki), but in Ladies X Butlers the resident troll only begins to show something resembling affection (and even that's a stretch) when it looks like her chief rival is about to take away her favorite chew toy, and in my opinion that was more a case of Territorialism on Tomomi's part.

 

[goldenarms]

Proof of terrible writing when you have to lower folks' IQs so that the story will work out the way you want it to. <_<

Officially, I think it's called The idiot ball.

But I do not disagree with your assessment. That series annoyed me because it expected me to believe that a guy would actually consider dating the woman that's been trolling him since Kindergarten. Now I fully understand that some girls bully the ones they love (I'm looking at YOU Helga G. Pataki), but in Ladies X Butlers the resident troll only begins to show something resembling affection (and even that's a stretch) when it looks like her chief rival is about to take away her favorite chew toy, and in my opinion that was more a case of Territorialism on Tomomi's part.

Similar thing happens to Takeo in Magic User's Club, where he's been bullied by a big-boobed woman named Mizuha for most of his life, only for it to be later revealed that she had been harboring romantic feelings for him all that time (unrequited as he's mooning over Sae and vice versa).

 

[Ordo]

The "I Bully you because I love you" trope can work if it's done right. The first thing is to make the Bully sympathetic, and Helga was sympathetic. Her home life was crap, her first day at school was a disaster and the object of her affection was the first person to notice and compliment her on one of the worst days of her young life. It's no wonder, to me, that she latched onto Arnold. Boys over flowers (wow never thought THAT one would come up in conversation) also got it right with the main male lead, especially since the main female was a spunky thing.

A slight variation on the above theme that worked is shown in Kodomo no omacha, with Akito changing from terror to hero....via the love of a good woman....or girl as it were....

 

[KurokamiDG]

Akihisa Yoshii from Baka Test: Bounces from 5 to 8 depending on the situation. I mean, some of the stuff that Himeji and Minami does practically spells it out for him, but he's such an idiot that he's incapable of picking up on it.

The only thing that doesn't keep him at a solid 8 is the fact that he was able to acknowledge their feelings when they finally do confess.

Ash Ketchum: I believe that he just might be a solid 10. I mean, there were so many girls that had feelings for him over the years, and he never notices!

Got too much pokemon on the brain I suppose...

Sousuke Sagara (Full Metal Panic): Either 9 or 10. Sousuke get's some slack for being a child soldier that doesn't understand the concept of love, but at the same time at least he should've picked up on something with how aggressive Tessa was in the series.

Shirahama Kenichi (HSD Kenichi): 7 because of his poor self-image and bullying. The guy got better, but it was still a bit heartbreaking to watch.

On that note FÅ«rinji Miu deserves to be on this list as well. Most likely a 5, since she was receptive of Kenichi's feelings once he actually came out about them.

Issei Hyoudou (High School DxD): Before he got some sense knocked into him, he was definitely a 7. Raynare messed up the boy a good deal more than he was willing to admit, sadly.

He was pretty good at hiding it though, I will admit.

 

[Ordo]

Sousuke Sagara (Full Metal Panic): Either 9 or 10. Sousuke get's some slack for being a child soldier that doesn't understand the concept of love, but at the same time at least he should've picked up on something with how aggressive Tessa was in the series.

Way to high, Sagara's a Six at most and with good reason. He was charged with protecting Kaname, and Tessa is his direct superior, and falling in love could be a detriment to both those relationships.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Issei Hyoudou felt more like a 6 from what I've seen.

 

[Altered Nova]

Sousuke Sagara (Full Metal Panic): Either 9 or 10. Sousuke get's some slack for being a child soldier that doesn't understand the concept of love, but at the same time at least he should've picked up on something with how aggressive Tessa was in the series.

Way to high, Sagara's a Six at most and with good reason. He was charged with protecting Kaname, and Tessa is his direct superior, and falling in love could be a detriment to both those relationships.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Sagara is aware of how Tessa feels about him, even if he has no idea how to react to it. His hilariously flustered reactions whenever she comes on to him are not the entirely the reactions of someone who is totally oblivious (he is still pretty oblivious, but he must have some clue what she means). But relationships between a subordinate and their commanding officer are strictly forbidden, and Sousuke Sagara is a professional soldier.

Also Sousuke and Kaname do eventually confess their love for each other in the novels.

 

[Hoki]

Can we name women who exhibit any levels of denseness? So far there's only been men, save for Miu from HSD Kenichi.

I vaguely remember Hikari/Kari from Digimon Adventure 2 as level 2, since she's pretty unaware of Davis' crush on her and mostly considers his advances as friendly gestures.

 

[goldenarms]

Can we name women who exhibit any levels of denseness? So far there's only been men, save for Miu from HSD Kenichi.

Sure. I'll figure out how to make the list a little more gender neutral so people don't feel so restricted to only guys (though guys are a lot easier to point out).

EDIT: Top of page revised.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Can we name women who exhibit any levels of denseness? So far there's only been men, save for Miu from HSD Kenichi.

The guys are easier to point out because Japanese anime series are utter full of guys... Girls... not so much, but they certainly exist.

How about the main girl from Witch Craft Works?

The one girl from Azumanga Diaoh? the one that most cats bite.

I always felt the girls from Happy Lesson needed the guy more than he needed them, and most of them were clueless.

Ayane from Kaze no Stigma

Kohime Muso actually has a few clueless girls

Oda Nobuna of The Ambition of Oda Nobunya

Haruhi Suzumiya of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

A couple girls in Nyan Koi IIRC

EDIT: Top of page revised.

Good.

 

[Contrabardus]

Can we name women who exhibit any levels of denseness? So far there's only been men, save for Miu from HSD Kenichi.

Sure. I'll figure out how to make the list a little more gender neutral so people don't feel so restricted to only guys (though guys are a lot easier to point out).

EDIT: Top of page revised.

It's actually a bit strange as men are the more culturally accepted sexual aggressor in Japanese society.

In Anime, the opposite is more common. The women are the ones doing the chasing and tend to be more sexually aggressive.

As a fantasy thing it's a little odd. It's not like anime is only watched by culturally shy and awkward males who have difficulties dealing with women that need one to take the reigns from them or anything.

In Anime, the women often know what they want, it's the male characters who are indecisive, confused, unaware, or all of the above. It does happen the other way, but it's a lot more unusual. Even then, it's usually just one character, while the male lead still has a number of other girls after him and is completely oblivious and/or awkward in situations like that.

It's almost like they are catering to a very specific audience that doesn't seem like it would be really all that common. I mean, even amongst teens the level of awkwardness towards the opposite sex among boys is not anywhere near that high in reality normally.

The awkward loner Otaku set isn't really that huge an impact on the overall anime economy to be honest. It's kind of a stigma and they generally aren't the kind of people with high paying jobs. Passionate yes, not insignificant, but it seems odd that so much is made to cater to them when they're really abnormal and not really all that important overall to the success of a series or merchandise.

I guess it's just a weird cultural idiom or something. It probably has a lot to do with the weird ideas of purity Japan has in regard to youth in general, and not just girls. Some of it is likely from the western influence on sexuality that they would honestly have been better off not picking up. Especially considering how closeted they are to begin with about a lot of sexual stuff. South Korea has picked up a similar tendency from the west towards being prudish, probably a bit worse than Japan is about it. It's kind of unhealthy overall to be honest and stems from Christian beliefs about sex in old Europe.

Some of it is just a joke, but there's a root there that stems from some sort of cultural source that I don't quite get the reasoning behind and influences from western prudishness that have taken root in the culture since the end of the last world war.

 

[Ordo]

The guys are easier to point out because Japanese anime series are utter full of guys... Girls... not so much, but they certainly exist.

How about the main girl from Witch Craft Works?

I don't know if she counts, she loved her man and made that abundantly clear, to the point of sabotaging his magic training to ensure he was as far from danger as possible.

The one girl from Azumanga Diaoh? the one that most cats bite.

Perhaps my memories fuzzy but the only person coming onto her was another girl, and thus she may honestly just not have considered those overtures to be romantic in nature.

Haruhi Suzumiya of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

Haruhi's not clueless....in fact her love kissed her to prevent the rebooting of the world. She's just not about to become some love struck half-wit because of that. I mean go back to the baseball game episode and note Haruhi's face when she sees Kyon's expression at the possibility of Asahina-san getting a her hair put up in a pont-tail.

Haruhi knows what her man likes.

 

[goldenarms]

The guys are easier to point out because Japanese anime series are utter full of guys... Girls... not so much, but they certainly exist.

How about the main girl from Witch Craft Works?

I don't know if she counts, she loved her man and made that abundantly clear, to the point of sabotaging his magic training to ensure he was as far from danger as possible.

Yeah, I wouldn't count Ayaka Kagari at all. If anything, Takamiya would be the one eligible for a Density test.

The one girl from Azumanga Diaoh? the one that most cats bite.

Perhaps my memories fuzzy but the only person coming onto her was another girl, and thus she may honestly just not have considered those overtures to be romantic in nature.

Sakaki. I'd give her a 1, as Kaorin isn't really overt with her lesbian crush on Sakaki like, say, Chizuru from Bleach, and worse, the last year of their time in High School, she gets switched to Mr. Kimura's class, much to her chagrin. I think the only one who even suspected something was Osaka, but, again, it's Osaka.

Haruhi Suzumiya of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

Haruhi's not clueless....in fact her love kissed her to prevent the rebooting of the world. She's just not about to become some love struck half-wit because of that. I mean go back to the baseball game episode and note Haruhi's face when she sees Kyon's expression at the possibility of Asahina-san getting a her hair put up in a pont-tail.

Haruhi knows what her man likes.

Dunno about that; I haven't been as invested in Haruhi as some.

 

[Hoki]

The one girl from Azumanga Diaoh? the one that most cats bite.

Perhaps my memories fuzzy but the only person coming onto her was another girl, and thus she may honestly just not have considered those overtures to be romantic in nature.

Sakaki. I'd give her a 1, as Kaorin isn't really overt with her lesbian crush on Sakaki like, say, Chizuru from Bleach, and worse, the last year of their time in High School, she gets switched to Mr. Kimura's class, much to her chagrin. I think the only one who even suspected something was Osaka, but, again, it's Osaka.

Given that Kaori, the girl with a crush on Sakaki, corrected Osaka on whether or not she's gay by pointing out that the correct term for it is lesbian, then going on a tangent on how she's not gay for Sakaki by pointing out that she wouldn't mind if Sakaki was a guy, as well as her new year's dream being rescued by Sakaki, Osaka was definitely spot on with her suspicion. Sakaki, on the other hand, has totally no idea about it,

 

[goldenarms]

The one girl from Azumanga Diaoh? the one that most cats bite.

Perhaps my memories fuzzy but the only person coming onto her was another girl, and thus she may honestly just not have considered those overtures to be romantic in nature.

Sakaki. I'd give her a 1, as Kaorin isn't really overt with her lesbian crush on Sakaki like, say, Chizuru from Bleach, and worse, the last year of their time in High School, she gets switched to Mr. Kimura's class, much to her chagrin. I think the only one who even suspected something was Osaka, but, again, it's Osaka.

Given that Kaori, the girl with a crush on Sakaki, corrected Osaka on whether or not she's gay by pointing out that the correct term for it is lesbian, then going on a tangent on how she's not gay for Sakaki by pointing out that she wouldn't mind if Sakaki was a guy, as well as her new year's dream being rescued by Sakaki, Osaka was definitely spot on with her suspicion. Sakaki, on the other hand, has totally no idea about it,

Not saying that she was wrong, of course, but if the only source confirming things for others in-series is Osaka, chances are, it's not going to be taken all that seriously, if it's not totally misconstrued. Unless she comes to wake you up with a chef's knife in hand.

 

[AJ_Katon]

Rito Yuuki:1-6. Rito has learned of others affections for him (Lala, Momo, Run, Risa?, Mea?) but for others their either in denial or something messes everything up (Yui, Nana, Rin?, Yami?).
Harunai Sairenji:1-6.
Lala Deviluke: 5. Ren. Nuf said.

Do the characters of To Love ru get an exception or so since their series is dependent on misunderstanding and a god like ability for undressing?

 

[PCHeintz72]

Haruhi's not clueless....in fact her love kissed her to prevent the rebooting of the world. She's just not about to become some love struck half-wit because of that. I mean go back to the baseball game episode and note Haruhi's face when she sees Kyon's expression at the possibility of Asahina-san getting a her hair put up in a pont-tail.

I still think Haruhi pretty clueless... though I suppose the cluelessness regarding Kyon could be slanted other directions and ascribed to other things.

I suppose I could be biased, as the only real reasons I watched Haruhi Suzumiya, its sequel, the movie, and the new Yuki Nagato series (I'm disappointed in that one), is to see Kyon and Nagato... For me those two carry the series. The rest of the characters are mostly unlikeable to me.

 

[goldenarms]

Rito Yuuki:1-6. Rito has learned of others affections for him (Lala, Momo, Run, Risa?, Mea?) but for others their either in denial or something messes everything up (Yui, Nana, Rin?, Yami?).
Harunai Sairenji:1-6.
Lala Deviluke: 5. Ren. Nuf said.

Do the characters of To Love ru get an exception or so since their series is dependent on misunderstanding and a god like ability for undressing?

You could say the same for a number of series, so, no.

Now, onto something else I was thinking: who should the density test be applicable to? I could think of some characters, but due to other things in their life, I don't feel denseness is nearly as appropriate to call their inability to note someone else's feelings. Case in point: Usagi Tsukino from Sailor Moon is completely clueless about Seiya's affections for her; however, IIRC, Usagi is in a monogamous relationship with (an unknowingly dead) Mamoru during the StarS anime season. Because of that, I don't feel that Usagi needs a density test, since she's not single or actively looking for a partner.

Also, when it comes to denseness, there isn't much room for variety. If a shy girl were to like our main character, sure, you could argue his denseness may be 1 or 2, but say he also has one overt pursuer and his denseness is a 7 there. His denseness with the shy girl would also be a 7 because that is more realistic of his denseness. Sure, he might be kinder with the shy girl, but seeing him interact with another girl that has all but stripped them both naked to get it across to him that she wants him, what chances he wouldn't be the same way with the shy girl? So, in that matter, irregardless of the situation or number of people that want to be involved, character's density should be measured by their max denseness and not a variable step.

 

[Ordo]

I suppose I could be biased, as the only real reasons I watched Haruhi Suzumiya, its sequel, the movie, and the new Yuki Nagato series (I'm disappointed in that one), is to see Kyon and Nagato... For me those two carry the series. The rest of the characters are mostly unlikeable to me.

Haruhu's made it clear that she is she has the same desires as a normal girl, and that she is very smart and capable of understanding people. I mean she picked Asahina-san specifically because of her Moe qualities, and figured out that murder mystery before Kyon. That said, there are things she's just not going to admit out loud, but her actions and intent make the truth abundantly clear. She likes Kyon, her jealousy over him is pretty obvious since she dragged him and only him into her new world. He's also the only boy she ever hesitated stripping in front of. Don't forget when it came time to change for PE she just started changing clothes in the middle of class with all the boys around because she just didn't care if the saw her in her underthings. Later on when it's just her and Kyon trapped in a cave after being soaked she's about to take her bra off to dry, and hesitates...because Kyon actually means something to her and stripping naked in front of him would be embarrassing to her now.

Haruhu's not clueless, she just tends to steam roll people and things that get in the way of her desires. Thankfully Kyon seems to be able to reign her in to some degree. I feel sorry for Kyon, but...for the greater good, he must sacrifice his life (IE Marry) Haruhi, it's the only way to protect reality.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Haruhu's not clueless, she just tends to steam roll people and things that get in the way of her desires. Thankfully Kyon seems to be able to reign her in to some degree. I feel sorry for Kyon, but...for the greater good, he must sacrifice his life (IE Marry) Haruhi, it's the only way to protect reality.

We will need to disagree on that point