Moral Relativism in Fiction and Fan Fiction

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#1
First, a link for those uncertain what <a href='https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Moral_relativism' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>moral relativism</a> is.

Now, this is not a thread to discuss your opinions of moral relativism itself (though I'm sure someone will) - whether its something you agree with or not, isn't the point of the thread. This is here to discuss how the various forms of moral relativism are depicted in fiction, and how well or poorly done it is, how it affects the story, et cetra.
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#2
The problem with fiction writing is that moral relativism does not go over well well if the character in question is not the designated villain.

One such example is Lord Voldemort: "There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it."

No western-world 'hero' can say something like this, as the simple denial of a system of "good" and "bad" automatically marks them as the bad guy. Even if the character were to say 'There is no good and evil, there is only power and the way it is used', it would still mark the character as the bad guy in popular perception.

That annoys me to no end.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#3
Well just replace good and evil with some other virtue-esque ideal.

Justice/duty/loyalty there you go.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#4
It gets even more ridiculous that that.

Especially in anime/Japanese culture, if you're alone, without friends, there's something wrong with you, it's never just that you like solitude.
 

knight_of_ni

Well-Known Member
#5
daniel_gudman said:
It gets even more ridiculous that that.

Especially in anime/Japanese culture, if you're alone, without friends, there's something wrong with you, it's never just that you like solitude.
Actually, they kind of have it backwards, but lack of social contact apparently does screw with you a bit. Not to the extent they like, and "power of friendship" will forever be one of the shittiest power ups ever in my mind.

Basically, they want to put in morals, having a theme or definite good guy makes it difficult to use moral relativism, because by default, you are saying that your antagonist isn't evil, wrong or anything of the sort, they are just the opposition. It kind of works for a story where every side is good, or evil, but for any form of moral clarity? Um...no.
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#6
But that's the entire point of it: Moral clarity is a luxury, not something that should be taken for granted.

Why is it that characters that believe in the ultimate pointlessness of everything always, ALWAYS end up as the villains? Why can't we ever have protagonists that have realized that existence is pointless and simply live on because they can, not because they want to prove something?

You can still have all sorts of epic heroism while knowing, deep down, that it is pointless.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#7
Well because those characters then tend to, I dunno, try to destroy everything.

There's that too.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#8
Voldemort is not mistaken because he chose to say "there is no good or evil." Rather, he is mistaken in saying that there is only power. No, there is not. Such a statement directly implies that the only people truly capable of being good or evil are those who have power, such as Dumbledore, or Voldemort himself. This is not the case. To cite an in-universe example, Peter Pettigrew. He was small in stature, unskilled, lacking in confidence, not particularly powerful, and neither clever nor intelligent. In no way could Peter Pettigrew be described as powerful. In fact, he is the almost complete antithesis of power.

In no way could you describe Peter Pettigrew as being powerful. And yet neither could you say that he is not evil, either. Not all men are brave, no. He could, in time, be forgiven for betraying his friends when threatened with violence and death. It is still a sin, and he would rightfully bare the blame, but one sin alone does not make a man. However, Peter continued with this, knowing full well that it was wrong. He was under no delusions that what he was doing was right, or even morally ambiguous. At no point did he ever consider confessing his mistake, as Snape did. At no point did he ever try to redeem himself in a truly selfless manner, as the one time he did something that was actually good, it was due to a life-debt. Peter himself claimed that he did not turn back out of fear of what Voldemort would do to him, but we know for a fact that this is a lie, because even if Peter felt that Dumbledore would have been unable to protect him, there was a span of time over a decade in length where Voldemort was not in the picture at all. At any point in time, Peter could have shed his disguise and come forward, freeing an innocent man from Azkaban and possibly even recieving leniency in his own sentencing. But he chose not to. Knowing full well that he had committed wrong, knowing full well that Voldemort was 'dead,' Peter still chose to continue forwards.

Voldemort's philosophy is disproven by the very servant he relied upon to resurrect him. If power was the only true determining factor, then Peter should have been worthless to all in all ways, and yet he was not. It was Peter, and Peter alone, who led to the downfall of the Potters. Often in fanfiction, Severus bares the brunt of the blame, but let us not forget that even with the partial prophecy, Voldemort could not have even found the Potters to attack them without Peter's information. Snape played second-fiddle at best to the death of Lily and James, which is ironic, seeing how Snape is far more powerful than Peter. And again, the idea is defied, as it was Peter who was instrumental in Voldemort's return. That is twice that Peter held the fates of many in the plam of his hand, twice that the destiny of the magical world hinged upon him. And yet he was not powerful.

A better choice of words for Voldemort might perhaps have been "there is no good or evil, only choice, and the context in which it exists." But then again, Voldemort is not a moral relativist at all, so claiming inaccuracy in his ideas in that context is a faulty accusation to begin with. Voldemort is a self-centric egotist. He judges the entire world based on a criteria that he himself excells at. Voldemort claiming that all that matters is power is effectively no different than Tom claiming that all that matters is your skill at barkeeping.

To judge the entire world based on a criteria deliberately weighted to place you in the top? That is not moral relativism. If anything, Cornathum, you have fallen into the very trap you decry. You chose to focus on the part of the statement that mattered the least, which is that "there is no such thing as good or evil." You immediately interpreted that as being morally relativistic, merely on the merit that it claims an absence of good and evil. Upon closer examination, we can clearly see that Voldemort's morality is not relative at all. It is very clear and quite concrete. All that matters is power. Period. It does not get any less relative than that. Circumstance does not matter. Perspective does not matter. Power is a concrete, demonstratable thing, and whoever has more of it is better than everyone else.

A superior example of fictional moral relativism might be the Joker, who claims that things like good, evil, justice, and crime are all meaningless labels that people give their perceptions of reality, and that the only true constant is the degree in which the individual deludes themselves as to the true nature of both themselves and the universe. To the Joker, everything is ultimately pointless, from Batman's efforts to fight crime, to the obsessions of his fellow criminals, to even his own actions. The Joker is a moral relativist.

If the Joker conversed with Voldemort, the Joker would probably point out that power itself is yet another meaningless label that Voldemort is applying to his own view of the universe, because a weak person could quite easily kill a strong one. The odds are just less likely of it. Ergo, power is pointless as well, because it ultimately means nothing in the long run. Voldemort would naturally disagree, and argue that his power is so great that it prevents him from dying. The Joker would then probably laugh, and say "but it doesn't prevent you from screaming just like everyone else." Then the Joker would set Voldemort on fire, or make a pencil disappear, or something.

After all, to the Joker, everybody is just an animal deluding themselves as to how things really are. Being a particularly strong or deadly animal doesn't make you any less an animal. If one of the pigs out of the herd can get stuck with a knife and not die, that doesn't mean it suddenly isn't a pig. It still squeals like a stuck pig, and it still bleeds like a stuck pig. It's just a pig that doesn't die when you stick it.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#9
Well sure if you redefine morals like that go ahead.

There's another proper name for that kind of thing though. It's called nihilism.
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#10
As you yourself have pointed out, Power is a label. This includes, amongst other things, the power of choice. If anything, Voldemort's fallacy lies in putting a far too narrow focus on his definition of power that, as you also pointed out, is custom-tailored to end up with him on top.

But by no means is power irrelevant: Whether it is the in-your-face kind of physical power, strength of will, the ability to follow a choice to its conclusion or the power to define your own set of morals and strictly adhere to that (even if said are not compatible with the preeminent societal mores of the character's origin), it is at the very core of this matter.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#11
Let's be clear here:

Morality isn't about what's important or not important, what's meaningful or meaningless.

It's about what ought be done.

Moral relativism is about the relativity of what ought be done, hence relativism. There's no absolute moral standard, no objective viewpoint so to say, not that there are no moral standards, or that morals don't matter. That is to say, there are morals, but it's not of the objective kind, and it's true/false depending.

For a given person, it's not a delusion of morality, but true for them depending. To another outside, it's also not a delusion of morality, but false for them depending.

Moral nihilism, on the other hand, is that there are no such things as morality or immorality. It plainly doesn't exist, any sort of standard from anywhere by anyone for anything is false and has no intrinsic meaning.

And that's very different from moral relativism.

Please, get the philosophical concepts you want to discuss straight here.

But by no means is power irrelevant
To the nihilist (well let's suppose it's an absolute nihilist), everything is irrelevant. In the end, you could have as much power as you could get, but you'd still die and be forgotten eventually, and then the planet you're on will be gone, then the solar system it's in, then the galaxy, and eventually the universe.

There's no point to anything at all, anything you do will never last and makes no difference at the final conclusion.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#12
But by no means is power irrelevant
I never claimed it was. Do not confuse an accusation of over-emphasis for a claim of irrelevance.

Well sure if you redefine morals like that go ahead.
What you fail to understand is that that is precisely what moral relativism is. While there are different brands of it, to be sure, the one that is at the center of the term is the idea that all morality is completely relative. In a culture where slavery is accepted and everyone practices it, slavery is not immoral. That is moral relativism. A moral relativist would claim that an outsider decrying the slavery system as immoral is imposing their own morality upon others, and would point out that things in their society, such as, for instance, casual sexual intercourse outside of marriage, are abomidable to the first culture in the same way that slavery is to the decrier.

Some moral relativists choose to take the idea and use it as a tool. Others, like the Joker, use it as an excuse. Do not confuse it for nihilism. That is not what it is. Nihilism claims that nothing can be known, because nothing is certain or possessed of value. The Joker is not a nihilist, because he claims to be the man with the answer, and that there is a certainty in the world, that certainty being chaos. If he was a nihilist, he would claim that there is no answer, only the question, which is itself a human fabrication and devoid of value, and that even chaos is ultimately nonexistant.

However, the Joker's characterization has changed radically from writer to writer. Some of them made him a nihilist. Some of them made him a relativist. Some of them made him a crazy guy who puts bombs in pies. So we would really need a specific version of him to really start talking details. I will admit, that is a point that requires clarification.

Whether it is the in-your-face kind of physical power, strength of will, the ability to follow a choice to its conclusion or the power to define your own set of morals and strictly adhere to that (even if said are not compatible with the preeminent societal mores of the character's origin), it is at the very core of this matter.
No it is not. To the moral relativist, power means nothing. It is just a trait, no different from any other of the numerous facets that comprise an example, such as the fact that Voldemort is a wizard, or that Voldemort has red eyes, or that he was born a halfbood. Power is not 'special' in moral relativism.

Power is at the core of Voldemort's perception of the world. Power is not at the core of moral relativism. Moral relativism, by it's very definition, does not really have a core. That is, to put it one way, kind of the point.

That is why Voldemort is not a moral relativist. Because he has a core to his worldview. His 'good' is 'powerful,' and his 'evil' is 'weak.' He possesses opposing-pole morality. It's just that the poles are not what most would consider standard.

Again, you have fallen into the trap of believing that any worldview that claims the absence or fictionality of good and evil must, by definition, be morally relativistic. That is not the case. Moral relativism is a morality without any poles at all. Merely replacing the 'good' and 'evil' poles with some other poles (such as law and chaos, or power and weakness) does not suddenly indicate moral relativism. It merely indicates an alternative moral compass.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#13
Do not confuse it for nihilism. That is not what it is. Nihilism claims that nothing can be known, because nothing is certain or possessed of value.
Moral nihilism, on the other hand, is that there are no such things as morality or immorality. It plainly doesn't exist, any sort of standard from anywhere by anyone for anything is false and has no intrinsic meaning.
Oh wut, there's different forms of nihilism?

Including forms of nihilism that accepts the possibly of knowledge but rejects the meaning in life, morality, or even existence itself?

Lol that's crazy. What kind of concept is this, shouldn't there just be one? Why can't I hold all these nihilism???


Hell, epistemological nihilism isn't even really one of the more prominent form (might be due in part with the overlap into skepticism), and yet that's the one you chose as "nihilism"?

L O L


Also, of note, this is what I was ascribing nihilism to specifically:

A superior example of fictional moral relativism might be the Joker, who claims that things like good, evil, justice, and crime are all meaningless labels that people give their perceptions of reality, and that the only true constant is the degree in which the individual deludes themselves as to the true nature of both themselves and the universe. To the Joker, everything is ultimately pointless, from Batman's efforts to fight crime, to the obsessions of his fellow criminals, to even his own actions. The Joker is a moral relativist.
The Joker may very well be a moral relativist, but what you described ain't.
 

MangoPDK

Well-Known Member
#14
Why would you do this to us Charon. What have we as a collective done to earn such a punishment?
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#15
Raine, please, let there be peace between us in this matter: I am not GH, I am able to see a point and accept it. I seek discourse, not quarrel.

I will give your words some thought and reply once I have gotten some sleep and food.

And Mango, I think this thread can be the root/foundation of something interesting, so I disagree with you calling it punishment.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#16
And with that display of childishness, I take my leave. Let the record stand that it was not I who degraded the exchange, though I am certain some will still find cause to place the blame upon me.

I would, however, suggest that before you venture to speak with authority on the subject of philosophy, Avider, that you learn it from sources more academically appropiate than Wikipedia.

Raine, please, let there be peace between us in this matter: I am not GH, I am able to see a point and accept it. I seek discourse, not quarrel.
And discourse is what I provide. What did I say that made you believe otherwise? I do not regret anything I have said, but some of it certainly might have been poorly worded. I disagree with what you said. I'm interested in a formal argument, not a fight.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#17
One major thing with concern to morality that you kind of need to address is what is it to begin with.

I've kind of broken morality into two groupings.

There's the Intrinsic Morality. That ties into the basics of things such as not murdering people, robbing them, ect... namely the basic things.

Then there's cultural morality. That tends to fit into other things such as premarital sex (take a glance at views on it in most societies a century ago, or even in a lot of the middle east now...), alcohol, drugs, and things of that nature. A lot of it is developed by the culture you're in and how it treats them.

When writing things, it is very hard to look at it through other mindsets. Cultural morality is something more easily done and makes for contrasts between people. Normally when the Intrinsic Morality is shifted for a character or group, then you know that something just isn't right.
 

knight_of_ni

Well-Known Member
#18
Cornuthaum said:
But that's the entire point of it: Moral clarity is a luxury, not something that should be taken for granted.

Why is it that characters that believe in the ultimate pointlessness of everything always, ALWAYS end up as the villains? Why can't we ever have protagonists that have realized that existence is pointless and simply live on because they can, not because they want to prove something?

You can still have all sorts of epic heroism while knowing, deep down, that it is pointless.
That is a sour knight. Its been done.

Also: it isn't a luxury, it is built into humans. We like thinking of our group as right and the enemy as wrong, even if things done in the name of the group run counter to what the group actually believes in. People will justify it in their mind, somehow. It is why the simple good vs. evil story is so damn appealing it still hasn't disappeared. Not to mention that a common threat is the best way to get people to rally together.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#19
MangoPDK said:
Why would you do this to us Charon. What have we as a collective done to earn such a punishment?
Punishment? I didn't notice typing any puns.

... until that one. ;)
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#20
And with that display of childishness, I take my leave.
:hmm:

If you're going to try to take the ball every time you get called on your mistakes, you're not going to have any balls left.

If you're going to double down on your mistakes, you're not going to learn.

These are basic concepts to differentiate. If you can't swallow your pride and admit even these, then there's little hope.
 

Muphrid

Well-Known Member
#21
I think at the fundamental level, morality is the description of what should be done. For what reasons, and to what ends, may vary from person to person, but ultimately, people do what they think they should do or feel too overwhelmed to actually obey that code.

An example I've thought about from time to time is Noein. Now, it's not that well known, but the basic idea is thus: boy survives a car accident that kills his girlfriend and two of their mutual friends in the process. Boy gains the ability to travel among parallel universes and finds, to his increasing horror, that by far the parallel worlds are filled with pain and suffering, the same suffering that he feels. He comes to the conclusion that the only way to escape that suffering is to undo creation itself--to collapse all the worlds into a single world, undoing all that has ever been done, so that a new multiverse can be born, one without suffering.

He's Noein, the antagonist of the story. He's the bad guy. The protagonist we're supposed to follow, supposed to root for, is a parallel version of the girlfriend and a different parallel version of the boy. Even so, I think the key point to understand is that the bad guy thinks what he's doing is right, is moral, is the best thing to do because he puts a priority on ending suffering, even if it comes at the cost of ending those lives too. The onus is on the protagonists to remember, to decide, that the future still has choices, that what's yet to come can still have happiness and be worth saving. And when it comes down to it, when Noein is helpless and defeated, he still isn't persuaded to their view. He insists, as the people who gave their individuality to him reassert themselves, that they'll all be back in his singular dimension of Shangri'la. It's just, in his words, a matter of time.

This isn't someone doing evil for evil's sake. He believes that this is the best thing for humanity, however twisted and appalling his logic is. While there is no attempt to suggest that Noein's action is the right or moral action (and in doing so, the series doesn't attempt to impose a true moral dilemma or challenge conventional moral standards), I think Noein's depiction is one clearly meant to suggest that, in his mind, he's doing the moral, merciful thing. And while I think most antagonists try to do what they thought should be done, what they think they deserve, whether that's self-serving or otherwise, Noein's motivations are partly altruistic, if deluded, and that's why I think the question of his morality is more interesting than others.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#22
SotF said:
One major thing with concern to morality that you kind of need to address is what is it to begin with.

I've kind of broken morality into two groupings.

There's the Intrinsic Morality. That ties into the basics of things such as not murdering people, robbing them, ect... namely the basic things.

Then there's cultural morality. That tends to fit into other things such as premarital sex (take a glance at views on it in most societies a century ago, or even in a lot of the middle east now...), alcohol, drugs, and things of that nature. A lot of it is developed by the culture you're in and how it treats them.

When writing things, it is very hard to look at it through other mindsets. Cultural morality is something more easily done and makes for contrasts between people. Normally when the Intrinsic Morality is shifted for a character or group, then you know that something just isn't right.
How did you differentiate between Intrinsic and Cultural Morality? Why is one Intrinsic and one Cultural? From what authority does either derive?

I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just really want to know.
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#23
Shiakou said:
SotF said:
One major thing with concern to morality that you kind of need to address is what is it to begin with.

I've kind of broken morality into two groupings.

There's the Intrinsic Morality. That ties into the basics of things such as not murdering people, robbing them, ect... namely the basic things.

Then there's cultural morality. That tends to fit into other things such as premarital sex (take a glance at views on it in most societies a century ago, or even in a lot of the middle east now...), alcohol, drugs, and things of that nature. A lot of it is developed by the culture you're in and how it treats them.

When writing things, it is very hard to look at it through other mindsets. Cultural morality is something more easily done and makes for contrasts between people. Normally when the Intrinsic Morality is shifted for a character or group, then you know that something just isn't right.
How did you differentiate between Intrinsic and Cultural Morality? Why is one Intrinsic and one Cultural? From what authority does either derive?

I don't mean to be antagonistic, I just really want to know.
Intrinsic tends to be consistent across time. Cultural doesn't.

One thing you can do is look through history at different cultures and at what remains good and evil and what changes.

One major example is the way people viewed their position during the dark ages, it was a bad thing to try to advance if you were a peasant...or pretty much anyone.

You also have things such as the caste system in India.

Compare those to theft and murder...

It is much harder to determine parts of cultural morality without taking another view at your current values
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#24
A useful thing to look at to get an idea of some measures of objective morality, intrinsic morality essentially, is Kantian morality.

Take an action, define the maxim, then universalize it. If there is a contradiction, then you should not do it, i.e. it's not moral.

For example, take murder. The maxim there then is, "You should kill people." To universalize it then is to kill everyone. However, if everyone is killed, then there would not be any people left for you to kill. Therefore, it's not moral.

There is at least another way of testing whether something is moral or not with Kant, I don't happen to remember the term right now, but it deals with human dignity. Um...let see if I can formulate it right...Whether this action is something a rational person would voluntarily subject themselves to?

Again, let's take murder. Would a rational functioning person voluntarily let himself be killed? Surely if he's rational, then essentially it's suicide and then it would make no sense for him to voluntarily kill himself.

Hm...voluntarily may not be the best word for it. Perhaps unforced? The conditions are such that there are no forces acting to pull him to suicide, essentially anyways.

(There are definitely problems with this philosophy, but I don't feel like pointing them out. It's pretty easy to see though.)

(If anyone with more versed knowledge of Kant reads this and facepalms, I apologize in advance. I tried to pass along the general idea, so I don't quite remember the specifics clearly enough. Especially the second part, that's sketchy. Probably because Kant's logic on how that one works with the first wasn't clear to me at all.)


Then you have Utilitarianism, another kind of objective morality. This one...I don't feel like describing at all. You can look it up. It's pretty common.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#25
Avider said:
(Kan'ts moral philosophy)
You refer to the <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>categorical imperative.</a>

The basic assumption is that all people have free will, are capable of rational thought, and thus are responsible for their own actions. Assuming this is so, pure reason can be used to determine - in a very basic way - whether something is the right course of action, regardless of culture or background.

Basics are:

1. If everyone, everywhere, did something, and the results would render it impossible to keep doing that thing, then it's wrong for anyone to do it at all.

2. Never treat anyone as nothing more than a means to an end. People are both means to achieve an end, and are ends themselves.

The rest is needlessly confusing for anyone not majoring in Philosophy.
 
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