Nasuverse Mysteries, Memories, and Impossible Enemies

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#1
Mitsuzuri Ayako was rather concerned. All that morning, she'd been noticing odd things, like cars changing colour, make, and/or model between one glance and another, animals staring fixedly at her and then vanishing into shadows that shouldn't have been there, or her house briefly seeming to be on the wrong side of the street. Also, her memories were off - she recalled being attacked on the way home, on a day that she also remembered making it home unmolested, yet she still had a scar from where she thought the blindfolded woman had bitten her - after apologising for it, oddly enough. The scar was itself wrong, because it was far better healed than the time that passed would imply. She recalled Shirou apologising for an insensitive remark he'd made (that she hadn't been there for, but he was apparently sure someone would tell her about), but she also remembered an entirely different, much briefer conversation. She remembered being Shirou's girlfriend for a while, seeing him die rescuing people after an earthquake, and then a guy named Archer asking her if she was his Master. The most disturbing one was the memory of committing seppuku - though she couldn't recall the reason, or even what haiku she wrote - and being both proud and relieved that Shirou got the beheading stroke exactly right, on the first try.

In the park, she bought a shaved ice, and nearly dropped it when she turned around - there was a large monument, there, that definitely had not been present a minute earlier. It was a tall, five-sided stone obelisk, with writing on it in fifteen languages (three to a side). The writing, at least in the languages she could read, said "To those who gave up all that they had been, were, or ever could be, so that we might exist at all." No-one remembers it appearing, or being set up, but a few people think its always been there.

After the obelisk appeared, the strange events ceased, but the contradictory memories remained. Knowing that Shirou and Rin are connected to the weirdness in town, she decides to head over to Shirou's place, to see if she can get some answers - and reassure herself that he was alive.

He was alive, but he was not entirely certain that that was a good thing. He had Ilya, Rin, Saber, Sakura, and Rider living with him, and all of them have contradictory memories, some more clear than others. Shirou has very clear memories of the Fate, UBW Good, and HF True scenarios, as well as less clear memories of several others - including a few where Ilya made him her toy. He remembers Tracing the key to the Gate of Babylon, and looting the King's Treasure House with Rin and Archer (Saber didn't approve). He was rather impressed that the second fight with Gilgamesh had not been a curbstomp in their favor, even if they did win. He has the Emiya Crest, which he was sure had been buried with Kiritsugu, and recalls using it in some versions of the War. He also recalls Ayako committing seppuku, and is relieved to see her alive. As best he can tell, he remembers all the timelines that the others do (but not always with the same clarity), as long as he was alive. In some timelines, he has Archer's memories instead of, or as well as, his own.

Ilya recalls something like the Fate route, but involving more actively helping Shirou (and playing house with him), because she had seen several anime since arriving in Japan, and had seemingly internalized the idea that Defeat Equals Friendship. She remembered being raised as Shirou's younger sister, encountering the Ruby Kaleidostick, and becoming Magical Girl Prisma Illya. She also recalled Kotomine ripping her heart out, and a few other unpleasant things, but could not recall where her new body came from. She liked it, when she looked in the mirror, she could almost see her mother looking back at her, but the differences in size and weight distribution made her clumsy.

Rin and Saber had clear memories of the UBW Good scenario, and recall HF up to being eaten (Rin's rather glad she can't remember anything after that), as well as a few others. Rin recalls either Saber or Sakura buying her at an art auction, but hopes that was a dream; failing that, she hopes the large audience at the auction doesn't remember seeing her naked. She and Sakura both recall the Childcare is War timeline - in fact, large swathes of Rin's lonely childhood memories seem to have been replaced by it. Saber recalls a world where she never found out about the Grail's corruption, until after she made her wish. In that timeline, she became Merlin's apprentice, but the guy who became king in her place turned out to be a tyrant, forcing her to reveal her heritage, and rule as the Witch-Queen of Britannia. Not everyone was terribly happy about that, and she recalls being summoned as Caster, and learning that she was reviled after her death, mostly by the Church - though like Vlad the Impaler, the descendents of her subjects, mostly in Wales, still prayed for her return in times of strife. She remembers that art auction quite vividly, as well as the fun they had, afterward.

Sakura and Rider have the clearest memories of the HF True scenario (and Sakura has the increased prana from it), but for some reason, Sakura has no clear memories of her horrific homelife (something she hopes means that this is the work of a benevolent force), these being replaced by a mix of Childcare Is War, and a strange timeline where she and her sister were raised as geisha and witches, and their contracts were bought by the Daimyo Fujimura Raiga, as a gift for one of his samurai, Emiya Shirou. She also recalls that art auction, but isn't mean enough to tease Rin about it - especially as she thinks it might have been a euphemistically named slave auction. She remembers the timeline where Shirou died, and then learning that the Archer in the Fifth War was another Shirou - she and Ayako shared him, after they won the War, while Rin went of to London with Saber. Rider remembers attacking Ayako on Shinji's orders, more than once, but also recalls a world where she never died, and another where Sakura was Caster, and summoned her the way Caster Medea summoned False Assassin.

All of them, Ayako included, have vague, fragmentary memories of fighting impossible enemies. They don't recall what the enemies looked like, or why they were impossible, just that they were. When they start to check, they find that many magic-users, official or otherwise, remember the Impossible Enemy, and very few non-magi do - only those with strong emotional connections to a magus, or very high levels of combat skill, luck, or both. Relatively few magi, or other paranormals, have contradictory memories that don't involve the Impossible Enemy, and no-one recalls why the enemy was impossible, or what they looked like.

A lot of people have skills and knowledge they don't recall learning, or powers they didn't have, before. A very few people have active magic circuits, or even Crests, who weren't even aware of magic, before. A few are alive who died some time ago (Matou Shinji is still dead, but has two gravestones, in separate cemeteries, with different dates), and some have been dead for years, who were alive, yesterday. The vast majority don't notice the contradictions, but everyone with a connection to the paranormal does.

I don't have a clear idea on WTF happened, beyond what's written, here. Its up to the author, as there are multiple possibilities, but its a mystery that I think they'd want solved. You could also do harem comedy as a subplot, or main plot, or go full lemon.

So, any takers?
 

Epsilon

Well-Known Member
#2
Who's the guy who came up with the original idea? Considering the sheer amount of stuff crammed in here, that person really thought it through.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#3
Epsilon said:
Who's the guy who came up with the original idea? Considering the sheer amount of stuff crammed in here, that person really thought it through.
Me, although there was inspiration from multiple sources. The monument is the only thing that was nearly copied - its based on one from an X-Men fic (which I can't recall the name or author of), where they create a monument to the Age of Apocalype universe.

I don't know WTF happened because I don't know - I chose not to decide - not because it wasn't in someone else's idea.
 

Epsilon

Well-Known Member
#4
For someone who claims to be tied up in a lot of stuff that prevents you from writing a lot more often, you somehow find time to write down all these ideas and throw them up in the hopes of getting someone to write it for you.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#5
Pounding out a list of related plot points like that would take, like, an hour, and maybe 1k words. That's not much content, really; 5k is the when you start actually telling a story instead of just setting a scene with a drabble.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#6
daniel_gudman said:
Pounding out a list of related plot points like that would take, like, an hour, and maybe 1k words. That's not much content, really; 5k is the when you start actually telling a story instead of just setting a scene with a drabble.
Rather more than an hour, but that's due to taking breaks, trying to remember things that were clear before I sat down to record them, or waiting for inspiration to hit, because it dropped in the middle of the idea.

So, does anyone want to discuss the idea, or would you rather let Epsilon kill the thread (I have a headache, so I have less patience with ignorant bullshit right now)?
 

Epsilon

Well-Known Member
#7


I ain't the Thread Killer. That's the Thread Killer.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#8
Sorry, accusing you of trying to kill the thread was uncalled for. Headaches suck.

Do you have an opinion on the idea?
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#9
So, where is Zelretch in all of this? I'd imagine that the Second Magic was involved in this, though he might not have been the one who actually used it.
 

MTing

Well-Known Member
#10
The idea's very interesting but it needs a bit more fleshing out. First off, there needs to be a list of characters that are dead, list that are alive and a list of recently dead/ alive.
Then you need to make a list of the people who you're gonna be using as the "main cast" so to speak.

You have to figure out which normals are remembering, which magi are remembering and the Enemy needs to be something that exists within the Nasuverse without breaking too many rules. A Type? True Ancestors? Who Knows.

Then within the "Main Cast" there needs to be a sub-cast. The character's that the main cast have been canonically interacting with. Shirou has Taiga, Issei, etc. Someone's gonna wonder where characters dropped off to.

Does Shirou have UBW? How proficient is he? Does Rin remember using Second Magic?

What are the skills that are gained from the remembering?

To simplify what each one gained:

Shirou
Has the Emiya Crest
Has Stolen Gate of Babylon
Has Archer's Experience


Rin
Slave Auction memories
UBW Good Memories
Childcare is War

Sakura
Childcare is War
Heaven's Feel True
No Horrible Homelife Memories
Remember's being a Geisha/Witch to Shirou
Art Auction
Caster Experience
Knowledge Archer = Shirou

Ilya
Playing House with Shirou and raised with him
Magical Girl Prisma Illya
Defeat= Friends
Heart Ripped out

Rider
Heaven's Feel True

Saber
Has experience being a Caster
Art Auction

Ayako
Remembers being Archer's master
Bitten by Rider
Seeing Shirou (boyfriend) die
Killing Herself

I don't know if anything I said is useful, but I really don't want this idea to die.
 

Epsilon

Well-Known Member
#11
I'm just a bit surprised that Archer didn't make the cut of retaining extra memories... although that would take the fun out of him reacting to when Rin and Sakura call him 'papa'.

Hm, any way to insert Miyu or Kuro without making it seem forced?
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#12
nick012000 said:
So, where is Zelretch in all of this? I'd imagine that the Second Magic was involved in this, though he might not have been the one who actually used it.
Not sure, but I'm absolutely certain they're going to want to ask him. As a Wizard Marshal, he likely was heavily involved in the fight with the Impossible Enemy, and if no-one remembers him being involved, they're even more strongly going to want to talk to him.

On the subject of who's alive and dead of the not-yet-mentioned named characters, Herakles, Archer, Zouken, True Assassin, False Assassin, and Kotomine are definitely dead. Gilgamesh and Lancer are probably dead. Caster and Murderfist-sensei may be dead, but if the author has something interesting to do with either or both of them, they could certainly still be around. If they are, I suggest that something has been done so that Caster no-longer needs to drain people for prana (or at least, the drain is minor enough to be harmless).

Taiga is probably alive, and her grandfather, as well. Either or both might recall the geisha timeline. Same for Issei and the other minor characters. For Tsukihime and other Type-Moon products, I haven't made any firm decisions, but I don't see Shiki managing to have a big harem. I do want Sacchin to get a happy ending, but she doesn't necessarily need Shiki for that. Maybe she has Sion.

What skills they all have depends on how detailed the memories are - for example, Shirou has any skills he learned over the course of all three routes, and all the blades within the King's Treasure House can be found in his Reality Marble. He most likely has other skills, from the other memories, but likely doesn't have much in the way of non-blade-related spells, beyond the use of the Emiya Crest (which thanks to Avalon, he can use better than Kiritsugu normally could).
 

Epsilon

Well-Known Member
#13
Since when was Tsukihime getting involved? The plate's already full enough as it is.
 
#14
Where did they put the stuff from GoB? I mean, did they just leave a bunch of swords lying around? And Ea. That's really not the sort of thing you want to just leave out where anyone can find it, even if they couldn't use it.
 
#15
Is Rin and Sakura ''Slave Auction memories'' come from some fic or it is an original idea?
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#16
He-who-voted-for-Kodos said:
Where did they put the stuff from GoB? I mean, did they just leave a bunch of swords lying around? And Ea. That's really not the sort of thing you want to just leave out where anyone can find it, even if they couldn't use it.
Unlimited Blade Work. Shirou broke into the vault and copied its entire content, maybe snatching a couple of goodies that he couldn't replicate with UBW.

As for The Enemy...the death of Gaia and the TYPE going genocidal on humanity would fit.
Look at it this way, Gaia is dead, the TYPE are tearing humanity a new one and even tough Heroes are fighting them, the TYPE are still winning. So in one (or several) timeline, Rin craft a plan.

With Zelrecht missing for some reason, she recreate the Jeweled Sword and use it to contact other timelines. All of the Rins (and sometime Shirous or even Sakuras if their Rins are...unavailable) begin to do some researches, find the other timelines that are facing the same problem as them and then create a giant network.

Together they craft a desperate plan. They seek out a timeline that is about to suffer the same problem as them and, using the power of all of their Jeweled Sword backed by the power of as many mage as possible to create a truly monstrous charge, they fuse their Universes with it, creating a Massive Crossover World in the process.

Their hope is that by combining themselves, they'll be able to deal with the TYPE.
 
#17
But it said they looted it, which implies they stole the stuff out of Gil's vault. UBW copies the weapons, so what did they do with the originals after stealing them? And what about all the other stuff that was there, like the wine and Vimana and whatever other Original goodies Gil has in there?

Actually, this is made for comedy: Shirou's desperate attempts to hide GoB's contents so no one who comes over who isn't in the know finds it. Taiga or Ayako finds Enkidu in his room after having seen Rider's fighting clothes and now thinks she's his dom. Issei stumbles on Vimana and Shirou has to try and convince him it's just something he's been trying to build in his spare time. Gil goes after Illya and Berserker, planning to do the Enkidu/GoB combo like normal, only for there to be nothing there.

And on a serious note, what would Gilgamesh be like without Gate of Babylon to rely on? What happens when he can't just overwhelm the enemy with a barrage of Noble Phantasms or Enuma Elish? In that case, I think Gil becomes serious. I think he stops with the King of Carelessness, and shows why he is the King of Heroes...and everyone else shitting themselves after realizing he was less dangerous before he got all his weapons stolen.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#18
Kaerdinr said:
Is Rin and Sakura ''Slave Auction memories'' come from some fic or it is an original idea?
Yeah, I was wondering what exactly was going on there, and why Sakura or Saber were buying Rin at a slave auction (although if it was Sakura (which seems likely) it was probably not for nefarious purposes)....

This seems like an intriguing idea, though.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#19
He-who-voted-for-Kodos said:
But it said they looted it, which implies they stole the stuff out of Gil's vault. UBW copies the weapons, so what did they do with the originals after stealing them? And what about all the other stuff that was there, like the wine and Vimana and whatever other Original goodies Gil has in there?

Actually, this is made for comedy: Shirou's desperate attempts to hide GoB's contents so no one who comes over who isn't in the know finds it. Taiga or Ayako finds Enkidu in his room after having seen Rider's fighting clothes and now thinks she's his dom. Issei stumbles on Vimana and Shirou has to try and convince him it's just something he's been trying to build in his spare time. Gil goes after Illya and Berserker, planning to do the Enkidu/GoB combo like normal, only for there to be nothing there.
It helped that they had more than one house to keep it all in, and the Tohsaka mansion is bloody huge, especially for a house in Japan.

He-who-voted-for-Kodos said:
And on a serious note, what would Gilgamesh be like without Gate of Babylon to rely on? What happens when he can't just overwhelm the enemy with a barrage of Noble Phantasms or Enuma Elish? In that case, I think Gil becomes serious. I think he stops with the King of Carelessness, and shows why he is the King of Heroes...and everyone else shitting themselves after realizing he was less dangerous before he got all his weapons stolen.
That's why Shirou was impressed. He wasn't expecting Gil to be that awesome, without his Treasury.

Kaerdinr said:
Is Rin and Sakura ''Slave Auction memories'' come from some fic or it is an original idea?
Original idea, kind of remixed from ideas for other series. Either or both might have been buying Rin as a birthday present for Shirou, but could have had other reasons (e.g. Sakura might just have wanted her sister back, in some timeline where Zouken has no hold over her).

Something relevant to possible not-yet-mentioned memories, relating to Rin and Sakura:

TYPE-MOON wiki said:
- It is possible that Rin is a descendant of vampires because of her connection to Zelretch. It is alluded and implied by Kotomine when he mentions that The Tohsaka house is built atop of a vampire's leyline, and that burying Tohsaka in the earth could do good for her mana, as vampires can sleep under the earth to recover their strength.

Yes, I know the image isn't exactly Rin as a vampire, but its close enough.

On another note, Stheno and Eurale might still be alive. Avenger is most likely dead, but Bazett is another matter.

Deathwings' idea on what the enemy was is interesting, but would all the magi have seen them as impossible?

EDIT: Possible complication - one or more of the girls is pregnant. Might or might not be used, but its something that could have happened.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#20
Prince Charon said:
Original idea, kind of remixed from ideas for other series. Either or both might have been buying Rin as a birthday present for Shirou, but could have had other reasons (e.g. Sakura might just have wanted her sister back, in some timeline where Zouken has no hold over her).
How the hell would Rin end up in a slave auction, though?

But, anyway, there's no way Sakura would buy Rin as a gift for Shirou, because she wants Shirou for herself, and besides it's her sister. If she bought Rin, it would simply be because she wanted her sister back, unless she were doing it at someone else's behest. Although, I guess she might be OK with giving her to Shirou if she wasn't worried about her own relationship possibilites, because she would at least know that Rin would be well-treated there.
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#21
Prince Charon said:
On another note, Stheno and Eurale might still be alive.
So might <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorcys' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>her</a> <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceto' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>parents</a>, for that matter, given how she was the cousin of the Olympians and the grand-daughter of Gaia; I wouldn't be surprised if they were at least as powerful as Arcueid, who would be Medusa's aunt. At least one of her half-dozen <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_%28mythology%29' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>sisters</a> almost definitely is.

Yeah, probably the only reason she wound up as an Heroic Spirit as opposed to just being dead is because images of her decapitated head became a common ward against evil in ancient Greece and Rome.
 
#22
Rin wound up in a slave auction. I think it might be safe to assume things are a bit different in those memories. Different enough that Sakura might be willing to buy her as a birthday present for Shirou.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#23
They're not certain its a slave auction, it just seems to be. Of course, I'm not sure how Rin would end up as a 'work' at an art auction, either. It could have been a very odd 'date auction for charity' thing, but there are other, weirder possibilities. Either way, perhaps she, not Sakura, was the one sold, but either not to Zouken, or to a Zouken with different motivations. Perhaps whomever bought her, changed her nature in a way that the jaded and dickish magi considered artistic. If she was born with few or no magic circuits in that timeline, its even more likely that only magic-users like Sakura and Shirou would regard her as a real person.

If its a universe where Sakura's base personality is horribly different (like, seeing her sister as a thing, not a person), she's going to be even less interested in remembering it.

Any thoughts on the vampire thing?

Should Sakura look <a href='http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=164892' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>more like this</a>, given that there are timlines in the mix where she was never sold to Zouken?

Also, was thinking that one of the others does remember where Ilya's new body came from, just not Ilya, herself. Might be Shirou, who remembers using a sword of homunculus making, but I'm not sure how plausible such a device is.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#24
Prince Charon said:
They're not certain its a slave auction, it just seems to be. Of course, I'm not sure how Rin would end up as a 'work' at an art auction, either. It could have been a very odd 'date auction for charity' thing, but there are other, weirder possibilities. Either way, perhaps she, not Sakura, was the one sold, but either not to Zouken, or to a Zouken with different motivations. Perhaps whomever bought her, changed her nature in a way that the jaded and dickish magi considered artistic. If she was born with few or no magic circuits in that timeline, its even more likely that only magic-users like Sakura and Shirou would regard her as a real person.

If its a universe where Sakura's base personality is horribly different (like, seeing her sister as a thing, not a person), she's going to be even less interested in remembering it.
Well, Sakura seeing Rin as nothing more than a possession to give to Shirou for him to enjoy seems unlikely to me, though. It's just not in her nature. Plus, if that is possible then surely the idea of her deciding to buy Rin for her own pleasure (instead of as a gift) is just as possible....

Still, I think that no matter what the timeline Rin would have cause to be very thankful that it was Sakura who bought her and not some random stranger.

Should Sakura look <a href='http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=164892' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>more like this</a>, given that there are timlines in the mix where she was never sold to Zouken?
Well, given that she remembers her childhood being happy times with Archer and Rin and not worm rape, I'd say that it would be logically consistent for her hair to be black and not purple, but in the end it's up to you.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#25
Cherry_lover said:
Prince Charon said:
They're not certain its a slave auction, it just seems to be.? Of course, I'm not sure how Rin would end up as a 'work' at an art auction, either.? It could have been a very odd 'date auction for charity' thing, but there are other, weirder possibilities.? Either way, perhaps she, not Sakura, was the one sold, but either not to Zouken, or to a Zouken with different motivations.? Perhaps whomever bought her, changed her nature in a way that the jaded and dickish magi considered artistic.? If she was born with few or no magic circuits in that timeline, its even more likely that only magic-users like Sakura and Shirou would regard her as a real person.

If its a universe where Sakura's base personality is horribly different (like, seeing her sister as a thing, not a person), she's going to be even less interested in remembering it.
Well, Sakura seeing Rin as nothing more than a possession to give to Shirou for him to enjoy seems unlikely to me, though. It's just not in her nature. Plus, if that is possible then surely the idea of her deciding to buy Rin for her own pleasure (instead of as a gift) is just as possible....
Yes.

Cherry_lover said:
Still, I think that no matter what the timeline Rin would have cause to be very thankful that it was Sakura who bought her and not some random stranger.
True, unless its somehow Dark Sakura, but I'd rather not think about that.

Cherry_lover said:
Should Sakura look <a href='http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=164892' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>more like this</a>, given that there are timlines in the mix where she was never sold to Zouken?
Well, given that she remembers her childhood being happy times with Archer and Rin and not worm rape, I'd say that it would be logically consistent for her hair to be black and not purple, but in the end it's up to you.
I'm probably not the writer, though I hope whoever picks it up is willing to let me help. The return to natural appearance just seems to fit.

Would Sakura be more, or less cute, with fangs (see vampire issue in earlier posts)? In that case she'd probably have red eyes, rather than blue-green ones, but still.
 
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