Evangelion Nerv and Japanese Goverment

[PCHeintz72]

I was uncertain whether this best go in ideas, or talk.

This has been bugging me for awhile.

It seems to me, that realistically, Shinji would be classed as a subject of illegal military conscription or even as a slave (a Mamluk, I think is a Japanese term for it as well) to Nerv, forced to fight a war he never joined, all but blackmailed into it. (Rei as well, though she would never voice it).

Per one source:

Conscription is a general term for involuntary labor demanded by some established authority, but it is most often used in the specific sense of government policies that require citizens (often just males) to serve in their armed forces.

and also as:

Conscription has also sometimes been used as a general term for non-military involuntary labour demanded by some established authority;

I should note, Nerv is a paramilitary organization, and not actually part of the Japanese Government, should not legally be able to conscript Shinji, as he is a Japanese citizen. That plus age, makes it illegal, and immoral.

As such, he owes no loyalty to Nerv, and in fact it is his obligation to attempt escape from his captors and informing his government of a kidnapping.

He did in fact try once, and despite it being half hearted, he managed for 3 days.

I wonder what would have occured, if in that 3 days, had Shinji been more assertive and more intellegent, he instead went public with his situation. The press and humanitarian publicity might well have caused Nerv issues.

EDIT: As an alternative to escape or reporting, were that to have proved ineffective, what if he either did nothing after a launch, or sided with the angel. I know that they can turn him off. But they would have no way to pull him back and get someone else in, as most angel attacks are time critical.

Ruining plans of kidnappers or slavers is your duty to yourself.

 

[Prince Charon]

Ruining plans of kidnappers or slavers is your duty to yourself.

Even if doing so is literally the end of the world? (Of course, going along with it was also the end of the world, but he didn't know that.)

 

[PCHeintz72]

Ruining plans of kidnappers or slavers is your duty to yourself.

Even if doing so is literally the end of the world? (Of course, going along with it was also the end of the world, but he didn't know that.)

Ah... while piloting for the first sortie he was aware of (the 3rd) would make sense, for not only pressure by them in the form of an injured Rei, but for expediancy.

It was clear they made no efforts after that to find other pilots. They 'Sat on their Laurals', so to speak.

By the time he ran away, they should have been looking elsewhere anyway.

They had advance knowledge. Asuka and Rei recieved years of training. Mistato I believe was quoted as stating it took Rei 7 months just to get a sync ratio.

What did he get? 30 seconds and a 'Well, we can hope he can walk.'

 

[bluepencil]

Because Gendo's an asshole.

However, given that there are only so many Evas, and as people believed that of out the billions of people on the Earth only a handful can operate it, it was better than nothing. Really they should be blamed for making a weapons system that's so insanely selective of its pilot.

 

[fallacies]

Nerv is a paramilitary, superlegal organization authorized by the UN and its member states to override local national law for special military purposes.

In other words, they're literally above the law.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Nerv is a paramilitary, paralegal organization authorized by the UN and its member states to override local national law for special military purposes.

In other words, they're literally above the law.

They cannot kidnap non-criminal, non-terrorist individuals from a country and conscript them without at least authorization from the government of that country, and even conscripted soldiers normally get training.

Additionally, there is the age issue. It would be one thing were he willingly involved and with training, but with neither?

At best, they would look bad, at worst...

And finally... remember he was not told why he was going there, it was implied to see his father, not to fight a war. Even that stupid pamplet he was given was lies. Ritsuko specifically told him the Evangelion was not in it, which was their main defense and purpose.

EDIT: Edited a couple times in rapid succession for spelling and clarification.

 

[fallacies]

The appropriate paperwork was presumably filed offscreen. NERV tends to brute-force a lot of things. Also, edit to last: superlegal, not paralegal.

It's rather unlikely that anything that occurs in the deeper parts of NERV is legal at all, but the Japanese Government and the general UN need to comply with their demands. Which is why they get away with all that they do.

Think about the hijack of the Kanto electric grid ... >.>

 

[PCHeintz72]

The appropriate paperwork was presumably filed offscreen. NERV tends to brute-force a lot of things. Also, edit to last: superlegal, not paralegal.

Never shown, not canon, and then there is the fact of Shinji's guardian, who is not Gendo. Does that then give him no rights to his child. Of course, Gendo bullying a man to get the response he wants is no challenge.

And in any case, Shinji would not know that, and what would the press/government/others he pled the case to make of finding it out.

 

[fallacies]

You have a group that can commandeer the UN Pacific Fleet, the Kanto electric grid, and destroy the entire south-western part of the United States without anybody lifting a finger to argue against them. What's one more kid? ^^;

I note also that Jet Alone was sabotaged, so they're not just operating on one side of the law.

 

[bluepencil]

Would Gendo ever really just hand out Legal Guardianship to another, though? That's loss of control right there.

On the other hand, it just means people won't ever expect him to act in any way like a -father-.

Hm...

 

[David Alan Abramczyk]

Let's face it, in practice, NERV is answerable to no one. Supposedly, it answers to the HCP Committee of the UN, but for most of the series, it (otherwise known as SEELE) and NERV, are responsible for a black op to initiate global genocide...

 

[PCHeintz72]

But a lot of that is dependant on the public not knowing thier actions.

Eva is secret, pilots are generally secret, even if the school knows.

Radios are blacked out during attacks.

Assuming the story was not suppressed, what would a public with hints of wrongdoing at Nerv do.

 

[fallacies]

Tokyo-3 has a fairly low population. If there's trouble, it would come from elsewhere.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Tokyo-3 has a fairly low population. If there's trouble, it would come from elsewhere.

Well... I was not so much thinking Tokyo3 riot, but widespread public outcry.

 

[Oni_kawaii]

Gendo might have just arranged to have Shinjis citizenship Revoked.
I get the Feeling the Japanese government Hates Gendo so why not
Kick Gendo and his son Out.

Since Tokyo-3 is more or less under UN control It's the only place Either one can
Legally Reside in japan.

I can just so see Gendo doing this so shinji has no where else to go

Shinji: What do you mean you won't help me

G-man: sorry Mr ikari but you are not a citizen of japan,
In fact we need to deport you since you're in our country without a passport.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Gendo might have just arranged to have Shinjis citizenship Revoked.
I get the Feeling the Japanese government Hates Gendo so why not
Kick Gendo and his son Out.

Since Tokyo-3 is more or less under UN control It's the only place Either one can
Legally Reside in japan.

I can just so see Gendo doing this so shinji has no where else to go

Shinji: What do you mean you won't help me

G-man: sorry Mr ikari but you are not a citizen of japan,
In fact we need to deport you since you're in our country without a passport.

Well... that leaves the second option I listed.

As there is no way he could get asylum in time. And I doubt Seele would let it happen, considering they have member from multiple countries.

 

[knight_of_ni]

Alright, NERV works under the UN, the UN is not all powerful, but I am fairly certain that if an agency working for the UN were to use less than legal methods to save mankind, the countries involved would look the other way until mankind was saved.

Once mankind was saved, anything could happen. The people of NERV could be hailed as heroes, or they would end up being scorned for all the manipulations that they did and the "conscripting" of their main pilot. The pilots themselves would end up rich and with their own personal harems, but that's for later.

And the selectivity of the Eva's was something of a lie. There was no Marduk institute, NERV just picked out the people that were convenient. Asuka and Shinji, theoretically, got higher scores syncing because their mothers were the ones absorbed, and Rei managed because she was part angel, however, Touji and Kensuke could have managed, it was just that it would be more difficult for them.

 

[fallacies]

Alright, NERV works under the UN, the UN is not all powerful, but I am fairly certain that if an agency working for the UN were to use less than legal methods to save mankind, the countries involved would look the other way until mankind was saved.

The United Nations demonstrated the use of the next-generation N^2 explosives in the submerged ruins of Tokyo shortly after the 2nd Impact, specifically as a warning to the states involved in the global resource war that was ongoing at the time. As a consequence of this, the Valentine Treaty was signed, which granted the United Nations the authority required to pretty much eliminate all warfare so that rebuilding efforts could pursued.

To give you an idea of the power the UN holds as of 2015, note that the ships that participated in the UN Pacific Fleet's escort of Unit-02 originally comprised the *United States* Pacific Fleet. That is, the United States signed over their navy to the United Nations. Think on that a bit.

The UN isn't that powerful in *our* world, but in EVA, they are pretty much the only functional "superpower" left.

 

[GoatMan]

Alright, NERV works under the UN, the UN is not all powerful, but I am fairly certain that if an agency working for the UN were to use less than legal methods to save mankind, the countries involved would look the other way until mankind was saved.

The United Nations demonstrated the use of the next-generation N^2 explosives in the submerged ruins of Tokyo shortly after the 2nd Impact, specifically as a warning to the states involved in the global resource war that was ongoing at the time. As a consequence of this, the Valentine Treaty was signed, which granted the United Nations the authority required to pretty much eliminate all warfare so that rebuilding efforts could pursued.

To give you an idea of the power the UN holds as of 2015, note that the ships that participated in the UN Pacific Fleet's escort of Unit-02 originally comprised the *United States* Pacific Fleet. That is, the United States signed over their navy to the United Nations. Think on that a bit.

The UN isn't that powerful in *our* world, but in EVA, they are pretty much the only functional "superpower" left.

Well, then it is time for a fanfic to be written about a revolutionary war against the U.N.

Presumably in the Eva universe, the sheeple are even more gullible and concerned with safety over their freedom than now. However, even amongst those worthless cattle that claim to be human, there are true people out there with the desire to live free, to make their own decisions.

When a political organization threatens the freedom or life of another with the excuse of protecting the mob, it IS the duty of that individual to resist. After all, the Angel War is supposedly about protecting those rights and liberties, by keeping humanity alive to experience them.

Therefore, if Shinji, Asuka, or Rei really grasped this and weren't such self-absorbed basketcases, there could very well be a resistance movement.

As for how to defy the U.N., Seele, and NERV, that is a simple matter. While the Magi practically run Tokyo-3's government, and politicians are simply voted in by the Magi with the illusion of a free election process, those politicians in lower, municipal functions do have some sway. Remember, Stalin started taking control of all the menial, logistical functions in the Soviet Union, which later turned out to give him total control when he decided to remove Trotsky.

So, all you need is a runaway pilot who is accused of genocide after a failed Third Impact for Seele to cover their tracks (Shinji or Asuka should fit that description easily), a politician or administrator who actually gives a d*** about personal freedom (okay, very unlikely, even in America), and a growing group of the intellectual class (as in the case of the American Revolution, the "grassroots" people never did anything except follow orders... It was only the smart and talented who truly helped form the nation).

With those elements, and divulging on pirated tv lines or through a contact in a reliable foreign news agency the true nature of the pilot's selection process, even the most inept of the sheeple would start to realize something wasn't quite right about the whole U.N., supreme power bit.

All that's left is to commandeer man's ultimate weapon in a one-man war against the existing powers of the world: Evangelion Unit-01.

 

[Konous]

EDIT: As an alternative to escape or reporting, were that to have proved ineffective, what if he either did nothing after a launch, or sided with the angel. I know that they can turn him off. But they would have no way to pull him back and get someone else in, as most angel attacks are time critical.

Ruining plans of kidnappers or slavers is your duty to yourself.

Eh, not when the slavers or kidnappers are right. <_<


Shinji was never forced. Duress by his own morals yes, but if you don't follow your own beliefs to make a decision then why are you making it? The only conflict Shinji faced was whether he could do it or not, not whether he SHOULD do it or not. Two very big differences. If he'd been asking himself:

"Hrm does my value of self matter when my morals are being forced against me?" Then I would see meaning to this PC.

However it was more along the lines of "Can I do this?! She's lying there(Rei), I don't know what to do! No I do know but I don't know if I can!"


And Shinji doesn't value his self as high, which honestly I think is correct in cases like this.

 

[Belgarion213]

Besides IIRC the 'Mardock Institute' was looking for extra pilots. Well really Gendo and SEELE already KNEW where they could get extra pilots (all of Shinji's class were part of the Possible Pilot Pool) but they could wave their document around and say 'See we have been looking and in 15 years only found 3, as soon as we discovered that Shinji Ikari was a possible candidate we brought him to NERV for Training. However the Angel attacked!'

If NERV was shut down then the human race is doomed. Its a super-legal organisation that plans on Genocide however without the Evengelion's one of the Angels will eventually combine with Llith and destroy the human race.

 

[PCHeintz72]

EDIT: As an alternative to escape or reporting, were that to have proved ineffective, what if he either did nothing after a launch, or sided with the angel. I know that they can turn him off. But they would have no way to pull him back and get someone else in, as most angel attacks are time critical.

Ruining plans of kidnappers or slavers is your duty to yourself.

Eh, not when the slavers or kidnappers are right. <_<


Shinji was never forced. Duress by his own morals yes, but if you don't follow your own beliefs to make a decision then why are you making it? The only conflict Shinji faced was whether he could do it or not, not whether he SHOULD do it or not. Two very big differences. If he'd been asking himself:

"Hrm does my value of self matter when my morals are being forced against me?" Then I would see meaning to this PC.

However it was more along the lines of "Can I do this?! She's lying there(Rei), I don't know what to do! No I do know but I don't know if I can!"


And Shinji doesn't value his self as high, which honestly I think is correct in cases like this.

I disagree.

I had already stated the situation with the 3rd angel was too immediate to fight or do anything.

He was never sat down, explained anything, agreed to their morals, signed anything, and given training (unless you count telling him he can breath, and try to take a step).

However, look at it however you want, he had no choice in joining. This is by definition either forced conscription, or slavery.

He was led to that city under false understanding.

He was ordered by three adults, and with armed guards present, to pilot or else.

They did not expect him to do much when he did, and gave no training.

He was never asked if he wanted to go afterward. In fact, no big deal was truly made of him ending in the hospital.

He is never really told the entire truth through the entire series.

Even after the third, he was basically bullied into this. Never was he asked if he wanted go home without guilting him. In fact after running away, and after disobeying orders, he was guilted into continuing each time.

 

[bluepencil]

If he went public, the press would paint him as a selfish, attention-seeking boy. NERV has a public relations department. He doesn't. People aren't going to go 'oh poor baby' when the alternative is their own death.

 

[Konous]

Even after the third, he was basically bullied into this. Never was he asked if he wanted go home without guilting him. In fact after running away, and after disobeying orders, he was guilted into continuing each time.

The only times he ran were after the 4th, and after the 13.


In the 4th like I said, he made his choice, and he thought there was a home for him and a reason to fight, so he stayed. More over, even if he was 'guilted' into it, he was happy with it, that's what matters.

When the 14th Angel attacked all Kaji did was give him a perspective of what can't be done because Kaji can't pilot, and Shinji can. Even if it's bullying again, Shinji has something that matters to him, and he thinks its worth fighting for. Regardless of the source Shinji made his choice.