Ranma ½ Ranma/AMG Idea

[PCHeintz72]

Depends really....

Though it would be really ironic that the only cure for the damned thing is death.

This would depend upon how the curse actually works.

As I see it, it could be two completely different ways, either it is directly a part of the body, or a reflection of the soul.

If a part of the body, then either getting a different body, or dying, or ascention into godhood should remove it. As you are leaving your human and mortal body behind.

If, on the other hand it is a reflection or aspect of the soul, then nothing you could do yourself to your body would remove it

The problem, as I see it, is that there is not enough evidence to support one over the other, and I've seen both ways done in fan fiction.

You all do realise that Ranma being a ghost/spirit/whatever water pass rigth trough him, right ? That wouldn't even be an issue...

And second...if its an aspect of the soul, then Ranma would get controle of the curse then, because oldest magical power on earth or not, there is NO WAY IN HELL that Jusenkyo could alter someone soul to that extent.

Heck, even gods and demons avoid altering souls in such way...

Ehhh...

Actually, I think it could. Consider, if it is not truly a alteration to the personality per se, it then might be an alteration to self view. Since all people supposedly have male/female aspects, this is not so hard a leap.

Likewise, being a ghost/phantasm/whatever, if the curse is part of the soul, water need not be ineffective due to passing through him, but coming into contact at all.

I have seen ghost fan fiction where the curse was still present, heck, I've even seen fan fiction where he basically *was* a ghost due to jusenkyo. A spring of drowned ghost is as believable as a spring of drowned octupus or fish. Yet in canon we do in fact have drowned demons. Go figure.

In any case, it matters little, since I cannot recall anything in canon indicating either way which it would be.

 

[Chrono Scholar]

Took me a while before I could get the time to write a reply.

For those not entirely convinced with the Kuno setup, I understand. However, I'm having some difficulty trying to think of another option that leaves me with the same setup. Ranma has to die out of combat (which adds to his feelings of being gyped: He didn't die in some glorious battle, but in a one-in-a-million chance event), and it has to be somewhere that no one will find his body anytime soon (if you made a bunch of illegal chemical weapons, would you call a contractor or the police when your storehouse collapsed?), and done by someone no one will believe.

Really, you're own resistance to the idea validates it to a degree. If you don't think Kuno could serve as a major threat, it adds credence to everyone else's disbelief. Still, I'm open to ideas, I'm just not having any better ones myself.



As for Ranma's curse: His soul itself is male, and nothing can really change that. The curse won't be following him in death either, as it only altered his physical body. However, transmogrification is nothing new to Norse Mythology. In fact, I believe Loki was mother to Sleipner. (And no, I won't be going there in this fic, or any other.) So once Skuld learns how to lend him mana to form a corporeal body, you might see her having some fun with him whenever he starts to annoy her.

In the beginning though, Skuld's going to have no idea Ranma used to have the curse. This of course will lead to quite a few humorous misunderstandings from her discussions with the wrecking crew.

 

[TeflonBooger]

Feh, I don't see it that way. If you think of it like that, there shouldn't be any Chan fics either, you might as well use that chick from Ikki Tousen, or Tenjou Tenge, or Negima.

He can just as well be one of the Einherjar. Fighting all day, then spending the evening and night in feast seems to be just what Ranma'd want.

See, i didn't think I'd need a disclaimer at the bottom of that post, but apparently that was a faulty assumption.

An example of this is easy-- Let's make a Naruto fic without him being a demon container... And watch your reader base drop like a brick into the event horizon of a black hole. People don't seem to realize this applies to Ranma's gimmick as well, his curse.

Since I'm in need of a disclaimer, I'll say if it takes you an entire fic to get to that cure, not so bad. likewise, Locking Ranma as a girl is more acceptable because of Ranma's natural gender and how he was raised. All of that said, locks/cures from the first paragraph tend to turn into a bucket of suck because they don't have sufficient plot trenching. I get away with it simply because I try my best to invest as much detail and groundwork into the transition/lock as possible, and to premptively defend AMR1/2, it's not a lock fic ^_^

Back on topic...

The need to die out of combat is fine, but Kuno is a poor choice either way. i realize you're taking the stance that since WE feel it's a bad choice, Ranma would feel the same way and is thus perfect for your use. I have to say that's kinda faulty.

I can't speak for everybody, but when you say "kuno" I don't see a fight raging across the city, challenging Ranma to any degree. Even hyped up on magical junk, he's just not the person you turn to for tension or drama. And you have a further issue to deal with. Unless this is a double ko and Ranma gets up to save the world for Sarin gas, you still have Kuno hyped on demon enhanced magical steroid necklaces.

It's just... Honestly, there better peeps to use then Kuno that will accomplish the same purpose. Ranma feels gipped because he didn't die in glorius battle. Fine. but Kuno is just meh.

 

[Euphemism]

I think defining Ranma solely by his curse is a little naive.

Ironic, yes, but then you might as well just use Tenchi as your main character. Or Naruto. Or that dude from YYH. Or that other guy who is really really good at martial arts but doesn't have a gender curse.

Then would giving those people a gender curse make them into Ranma? Of course, the point about the reader base dropping into a black hole might be valid, although I suspect you're projecting your own feelings about uncursed!Ranma in this case.

On the other hand, I think the idea that Ranma is finally free of the curse, but finds his current gender controlled by the whims of Skuld, to be absolutely hilarious.

Back on topic: Ranma dies out of combat, his body remains unfound, and most importantly no one is willing to believe it actually happened because Kuno was the one who defeated him. I have no problem with this idea. I think the whole point is that Ranma's death came about in a fashion that completely lacks tension or drama. Although, doing so does make it seem rather contrived. Which in itself could be a possible plot point. Maybe someone or something is meddling in Ranma's life - who knows?

 

[cilrais]

Uhhhh I think more people LIKE a Kyuubiless Naruto, I know nothing makes me drop a fic faster than Kyuubi handing out kyuubigans or sharingans and all of naruto's development being caused or related to Kyuubi and his status as it's container.

 

[Andy2kk]

In the beginning though, Skuld's going to have no idea Ranma used to have the curse. This of course will lead to quite a few humorous misunderstandings from her discussions with the wrecking crew.

Instead of all that crap with the curse being more than it is, you could have Skuld screw up in someway. She is a young goddess and this is her first gig as a warrior chick. She could mess up a procedure, a spell and presto brings back Ranma's girl side, turning him into a warrior chick too... only neither of them realise it until later on in the story or whenever you want them to, could be right at the end.


As for the Kuno thing, it could work. Start Ranma's day from the morning having him go through some regular battles... against Ryoga, Mouse, a challenger but have him win them all. But picking up a sprain or some other injury along the way(Ryoga using a Shishi, leaving Ranma to stand his ground or let the ...er...orphanage behind him be demolished; for the Sarin gas thing... have him hit a car and it explodes sending him away from the Orphange and into the warehouse! ) leaving him more than a little dazed. Through out those fight scenes you could cut to Kuno sporadically, him preparing his 'mega-hyper-souped up' boost... whatever that is. Doing that without letting the reader know who it is; like a whole foreshadowing thing. Then just as Ranma's finishing the last fight, Kuno attacks and though Ranma gives a good showing, he's too weak/injured/exhausted and Kuno's alot better than he normally is....

 

[TeflonBooger]

I think defining Ranma solely by his curse is a little naive.


Then would giving those people a gender curse make them into Ranma? Of course, the point about the reader base dropping into a black hole might be valid, although I suspect you're projecting your own feelings about uncursed!Ranma in this case.

You're kidding, right?

If you want to define Ranma by other definitions other than his curse, you go right ahead. I'm referring to what makes it a stand out as a series to its audience at large, and I'll tell you it isn't his skill as a martial artist, the series protagonists or the fact that characters therein are invariably named after food or toiletry products. I guarantee you without the curse gimmick there is next to nothing keeping it going, let alone to attract the fanbase it has.

I mean seriously. If I'm projecting myself so badly into my opinions here, name me something that makes this series stand out and/or surpass others of like value beyond the element of a curse and all the wacky situations it gets our hero into? Sure, that's all gravy, but without the curse as the backbone of this story? Yes, I'm of the opinion it's that big of a deal to any potential plot.

Either way, I think I'm being grossly misinterpreted here. Fact is, I think curing the curse is a mistake because of the above reasons. Even so, I think this story could get by curing the curse as long as it's done over the long term and with sufficient plot to back it up; That is to say more than simply a token showing of it. Curing it straight out destroys this fic IMHO, but that's more or less based on the first two paragraphs of this post and less than any perceived projections laid at my feet.

Fine, there's more to Ranma than a curse. You 'll find me agreeing with you till the cows come home. But Ranma's intrinsic character didn't sell Ranma 1/2. I honestly shouldn't have to go this in depth for that to be realized.

As for the Kuno thing, it could work. Start Ranma's day from the morning having him go through some regular battles... against Ryoga, Mouse, a challenger but have him win them all. But picking up a sprain or some other injury along the way(Ryoga using a Shishi, leaving Ranma to stand his ground or let the ...er...orphanage behind him be demolished; for the Sarin gas thing... have him hit a car and it explodes sending him away from the Orphange and into the warehouse! tongue.gif ) leaving him more than a little dazed. Through out those fight scenes you could cut to Kuno sporadically, him preparing his 'mega-hyper-souped up' boost... whatever that is. Doing that without letting the reader know who it is; like a whole foreshadowing thing. Then just as Ranma's finishing the last fight, Kuno attacks and though Ranma gives a good showing, he's too weak/injured/exhausted and Kuno's alot better than he normally is....

The Breaking of batman comes to mind with this. Good ol bruce wins wins wins, but when it finally comes time vs bane, he's just too out of it pull through. Like andy says, Kuno could work, but it's like plot nitro... handle with care because it'd be more than happy to blow up in your face.

 

[fallacies]

It should be pointed out that Takahashi's name was already absolutely huge from her previous series by the time she started work on Ranma, and that Ranma itself was notable in being one of the few shounen fighting manga parodies running in a major weekly at the time of its publication. Certainly, without the curse the series would lack a great deal of its present attractiveness, but to say that the absence of one element breaks the series is grossly oversimplifying the circumstances.

More on-topic, taking the curse transformation away in a fanfic *is* nevertheless bad form, because though the element doesn't "make" the series by itself, it is still an integral part of Ranma's personage. Part of the reason for this lies in the fact that Ranma doesn't actually have a well-defined character, and removing or locking the curse renders him a nearly featureless everyman/everywoman, with perhaps a bit of brashness and egotism. When Ranma can become nearly anybody, he loses meaning as a fanfic protagonist.

Perhaps Ranma now transforms whenever his mindset resembles a certain gender? I'm not sure how the fic premise actually requires any specific management of the curse, besides logical changes relating to how it continues to have an effect on Ranma in death. This doesn't interest me as a major plot point, however. Of rather more concern is the fact that concept is currently without any discernible direction in plot progression. Where do you folks see it going?

The Kuno device sounds overly convenient. If you want to make Ranma a hero, then actually make him a hero. Using a Gary-Kleppe-ish Jusenkyou War might be a better way for the heroism thing to pan out.

 

[foesjoe]

I still don't get why people think it's acceptable to lock Ranma as a female and that it's bad for a fic if he gets cured. In both instances you take away the gender-changing. And saying Ranma-chan fics work because Ranma wasn't brought up as a girl doesn't count to me. There are a lot of girls in various stories who aren't brought up as girls in the "traditional" sense. They fight, they swear, they drink and they enjoy it. They even use their feminine charms to get what they want. Ranma-chan would just be another of those.

I'm also of the opinion that if the issue of the curse is unimportant to the fic overall, it's best not to pay any special attention to it instead of trying to somehow involve it and make a big issue out of it at all costs. Not every fic has to revolve around Ranma's curse - including it by force can even be quite detrimental to some stories.

As to Ranma's death. The way I understood it, the fact that Ranma isn't even granted a heroic death is very important in itself. Ranma feels the Gods are messing with his life, making it hard for him for their own amusement. And now they don't even grant him a heroic demise. Ranma feels cheated by them and has a deep dislike for them.

Skuld learns of Ranma's life and sympathizes with him, but she also wants to complete her assignment. Normally, she'd totally agree with Ranma and tell him to simply turn his back on the Gods' offer and enjoy his afterlife. Now, though, she has her assignment to consider, which she wants to complete to prove herself.

That in itself is conflict enough, imo. Adding some antagonist would just be "spicing things up".

Trying to resolve this issue is, the way I understood it at least, the plot of the story. How Ranma overcomes his personal issues and does the "right thing" in the end. Or maybe how Skuld in the end agrees that Ranma doesn't owe the Gods anything and lets him turn down their offer.

 

[PCHeintz72]

I still don't get why people think it's acceptable to lock Ranma as a female and that it's bad for a fic if he gets cured.

Personally, I don't particularly care if he is locked or cured in a story. However, having said that, I do not like a lot of stories that do so.

The reason for the contradiction of the above is I prefer to see two things happen if such a circumstance occurs. The first being a good story and plot built up explaining it. The second it being believable to the readers.

So many stories fail on those two points so spectacularly I really can't like them no matter how good they may be otherwise.

If for example Ranma is locked in the opening of a story, just because, and little effort to go into it by the author, both how occured, and how he/she copes, then that IMO is what modern slang refers to as an Auto Fail scenario.

Or if Ranma is locked, and there is good plot leading to it, and then Ranma rolls over, accepts it, and must suddenly be grateful and start acting like a wacked out cardboard cutout of a stereotype of a woman among woman, and it suddenly solves all his/her issues, is an Auto Fail scenario.

Or if Ranma is suddenly cured by some go-dooger mary su that pops in, cures him, then leaves, with no price or consequence or plot around it, and no reaction from if not Ranma, at least the other NWC and characters in the story, is likewise an Auto Fail scenario.

One good example of a locked Ranma would be 'The Return' by Josh Temple. It goes into quite the plot, shows the slow changes and psychological issues and struggles he / she had over the course of many chapters with the dual nature. The acceptance and rejection of others, the relationship struggles that occured as he/she redefined him/her self.

I'm not saying a story need be that large in scale to be acceptable, but the concept of an overnight change/lock/cure/solution and immediate acceptance is just dumb. A shorter unfinshed example would be an older story called 'Saotome's Choice' by JP Buckner. Where Ranma actually has to struggle to decide whether to lock herself to be with her mother.

 

[fallacies]

One good example of a locked Ranma would be 'The Return' by Josh Temple.

Eh, I find the series distasteful for a number of reasons unrelated to curse use, but mentioning them here would be far too off-topic. >.>

 

[PCHeintz72]

One good example of a locked Ranma would be 'The Return' by Josh Temple.

Eh, I find the series distasteful for a number of reasons unrelated to curse use, but mentioning them here would be far too off-topic. >.>

It was mearly an example. That story series is not perfect, but I was only referring to how the locked curse was handled.

 

[Euphemism]

The point I'm trying to make is the one foesjoe previously stated:

I'm also of the opinion that if the issue of the curse is unimportant to the fic overall, it's best not to pay any special attention to it instead of trying to somehow involve it and make a big issue out of it at all costs. Not every fic has to revolve around Ranma's curse - including it by force can even be quite detrimental to some stories.

While the curse is a critical element of Ranma 1/2, as written by Rumiko Takahashi, that is canon and this is fanfiction. Curing Ranma of his curse would have prevented the series from continuing in any fashion. In a fanfiction, it can be a driving plot or an incidental event to something larger happening.

The implication is that if curing the curse will ruin the story, then all stories that do not dedicate a large portion of the plot to the curse have ruined the story. Many stories deal with the issue of Ranma dealing with the curse as a central plot - locked stories, cure stories, getting hitched to someone who will finally accept him despite his having the curse - but not all.

Some other issues that define Ranma: Genma. Genma's past history that might come back to haunt Ranma. The fiancees and their suitors.

In the case of this story, Ranma's curse may not be as important as everything else that defines him.

Ranma died.

He's dead. That's pretty big, isn't it? If dying cures him of the curse, I can accept that. It satisfies the second condition - death will cure everything that ails you, including life.

Now, the issue here is that if Ranma's dead, and the story no longer has anything to do with Nerima in any fashion, then Ranma's completely replaceable with any character. Having him keep his curse... doesn't really help. Ranma is pretty flat for a character - just an exceedingly skilled martial artist with a large ego and a curse. And set of past interactions with a large group of strange characters. And if you just kill him off and separate him from Nerima, you've just got some interchangeable dead character with a gender-bending curse.

Of course, you could then have Ranma-ish interactions due to the curse with a group of new characters that react in similar ways as the NWC has to Ranma, and that would bring the whole situation closer to the original one, but meh.

Regarding PCHeintz first condition, that there be some plot to handle the build up - well, it's more like plot to handle the aftereffects, seeing as how we're discussing handling the build-up right now. It's just that the aftereffects in this case deal more with Ranma wanting to do... something... (I forgot Ranma's reasons for wanting to interact with the NWC after his death... what were they again?), than on the fact that he's been cured.

 

[ToastedPine]

I was looking up valhalla's conditions. The only thing it says is that you have to die gloriously in battle and that you can't have died peacefully. There's the possibility that Ranma doesn't really have to be a hero by our contemporary definition of the world at all.

 

[tenkailoop9]

yeah old world hero standards should work

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Just so you know, it's considered poor form to revive old threads unless you have something significant to add. It's not as bad in threads that are in the "Ideas" or "Talk" sections, but it's still something that should be done sparingly.

If you post in a thread that hadn't had a reply in some time, but was highly popular before the hiatus, you will attract a lot of ire, and will be labelled a "Necromancer" (one who revives the dead.) Those who frequented the thread in the past, and got their hopes up that it had been updated with new content, will be very annoyed, and will express that annoyance, sometimes vividly and profusely.